The "what went wrong" thread. Darksiders come on in.

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,242
Reaction score
53,656
Location
SoCal
CP definitely wasn't the same player we'd seen in our finals season, that decline became obvious the year before and continued throughout last year and this season. But several other players looked like they were running in mud in that Dallas series. Maybe it was confusion due to poor coach preparation, I don't know but to me it looked more like a physical issue than not knowing what to do.

And I'm all in favor of moving on from Monty but there will likely be a public backlash, especially if Ishbia also replaces JJ which I expect to happen.
Bring on the backlash. This is about winning not pandering to the general fan’s unsophisticated takes.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,242
Reaction score
53,656
Location
SoCal
Honestly? This would bother me. Not the Monty part (based on what happens this playoffs) but getting rid of JJ. He isn't the owner. Sarver tied his hands IMO. I don't know of a single GM in the world that has a blank check sit back and go...."you know, I don't think I will try and improve the team". I don't buy it. I think getting rid of JJ as well as Monty is an overcorrection IMO.
Even with restrictions the better GMs make lemonade outta lemons. Ain’t seen that from jJ.
 

GatorAZ

feed hopkins
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Posts
24,587
Reaction score
16,919
Location
The Giant Toaster
We saw a team play excellent basketball for 70 plus games and then we saw a noticably inferior version of that team finish the season and then struggle in the postseason and eventually get hammered. Why the incredible decline in play? Who knows. Myself, I buy the Covid explanation. I guess if you want to believe we just overachieved for much of the year, or we were just outcoached, or gutless or whatever, those are options too.
The Suns didn’t struggle in the postseason until game 3 of the second round. They were 6-2 to that point and both losses were without Book. Something clearly happened after they embarrassed the Mavs in games 1-2.
 

Bufalay

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Posts
4,675
Reaction score
781
The Suns didn’t struggle in the postseason until game 3 of the second round. They were 6-2 to that point and both losses were without Book. Something clearly happened after they embarrassed the Mavs in games 1-2.
They struggled in the first round too.
 

GatorAZ

feed hopkins
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Posts
24,587
Reaction score
16,919
Location
The Giant Toaster
Did CP3's ego come into play last night during the 4th quarter? CP3 had many attempts, KD did not. Or was this just more idiotic coaching?
He played right into the Clipper’s hands. Honestly we may be at the point this off-season where CP3 has worn out his welcome on another team.
 

GatorAZ

feed hopkins
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Posts
24,587
Reaction score
16,919
Location
The Giant Toaster
They lost twice and needed Chris Paul's best game of his life to win game 6 against a play-in team.
The Pels weren’t your typical play-in team because they acquired McCollum and Nance during the season. Regardless, they took care of them in 6 and it’s a gentleman’s sweep if Book is healthy then blew the Mavs away in games 1-2.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,463
Reaction score
53,152
Honestly? This would bother me. Not the Monty part (based on what happens this playoffs) but getting rid of JJ. He isn't the owner. Sarver tied his hands IMO. I don't know of a single GM in the world that has a blank check sit back and go...."you know, I don't think I will try and improve the team". I don't buy it. I think getting rid of JJ as well as Monty is an overcorrection IMO.

James Jones trading for Chris Paul was brilliant. The same with getting Cam Payne out of the G-League, the addition of Jae Crowder and drafting Cam Johnson.

However, there is a long list of things he has done wrong as well.

Where was the depth behind Saric in the Finals?

The perpetual lack of depth at the power forward and point guard positions is inexcusable. The trade for Shamet and then extending him was just plain bad. I still can't believe James Jones didn't draft Haliburton or trade the pick if he didn't know what to do with it.

And now look at the Suns bench.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,763
Reaction score
12,815
Location
Arizona
James Jones trading for Chris Paul was brilliant. The same with getting Cam Payne out of the G-League, the addition of Jae Crowder and drafting Cam Johnson.

However, there is a long list of things he has done wrong as well.

Where was the depth behind Saric in the Finals?

The perpetual lack of depth at the power forward and point guard positions is inexcusable. The trade for Shamet and then extending him was just plain bad. I still can't believe James Jones didn't draft Haliburton or trade the pick if he didn't know what to do with it.

And now look at the Suns bench.
I simply don't buy it. The Suns have been over the luxury tax. Knowing what we do about Sarver? James couldn't sneeze without Sarver's say so. I think when it came to depth, there was only so much he could do.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,463
Reaction score
53,152
I simply don't buy it. The Suns have been over the luxury tax. Knowing what we do about Sarver? James couldn't sneeze without Sarver's say so. I think when it came to depth, there was only so much he could do.


There was no one stopping James Jones from trading Jae Crowder.

James Jones had a free rein to do whatever he wanted to do with the team when Ishbia became the Suns owner before the trade deadline.

Look at what the Lakers did before the trade deadline with a bad contract, a first round pick and three second round picks.
 

Bufalay

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Posts
4,675
Reaction score
781
The Pels weren’t your typical play-in team because they acquired McCollum and Nance during the season. Regardless, they took care of them in 6 and it’s a gentleman’s sweep if Book is healthy then blew the Mavs away in games 1-2.
The Pelicans had the same roster this year and were still in the play-in.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,763
Reaction score
12,815
Location
Arizona
There was no one stopping James Jones from trading Jae Crowder.

James Jones had a free rein to do whatever he wanted to do with the team when Ishbia became the Suns owner before the trade deadline.

Look at what the Lakers did before the trade deadline with a bad contract, a first round pick and three second round picks.
He is a new owner and made one of the biggest trades in history. I am pretty sure he wasn't going to allow much beyond that. I am not arguing they shouldn't have done more but you are cherry picking. I am talking the past 2 seasons overall at deadlines. That was Sarver signing the checks.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,463
Reaction score
53,152
He is a new owner and made one of the biggest trades in history. I am pretty sure he wasn't going to allow much beyond that. I am not arguing they shouldn't have done more but you are cherry picking. I am talking the past 2 seasons overall at deadlines. That was Sarver signing the checks.

I don't think Ishbia and Jones had much left to trade after gutting the team, other than trade Saric and adding Terence Ross.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,763
Reaction score
12,815
Location
Arizona
I don't think Ishbia and Jones had much left to trade after gutting the team, other than trade Saric and adding Terence Ross.
Right. My overall point is that for the vast majority of JJ's tenure he has been under the thumb of Sarver and much of that in the luxury tax. He wasn't doing anything without Sarver's approval. I am with everyone else in that the Suns had multiple opportunities to add depth to this roster in the past and screwed the pooch with the "run it back" mentality. With the new rules coming you are likely going to see what JJ is really made of because the league is clamping down creating another tier for the luxury tax.
 

JohnnyCakes

Alpha Male
Joined
Oct 28, 2020
Posts
3,740
Reaction score
2,819
Location
Phoenix
Don't forget that they've given away all of their future picks.
Yup, and that is what scares me the most. This team could use those picks to supply a bench until they are ready to develop into starters but they are completely screwed now.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,463
Reaction score
53,152
Right. My overall point is that for the vast majority of JJ tenure he has been under the thumb of Sarver and much of that in the luxury tax. He wasn't doing anything without Sarver's approval. I am with everyone else in that the Suns had multiple opportunities to add depth to this roster in the past and screwed the pooch with the "run it back" mentality.

I don't see Sarver being the culprit concerning the Suns roster from the Orlando bubble forward.

This season is on James Jones and Mat Ishbia since ownership transferred before the trade deadline.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,763
Reaction score
12,815
Location
Arizona
I don't see the Sarver being the culprit concerning the Suns roster from the Orlando bubble forward.

This season is on James Jones and Mat Ishbia since ownership transferred before the trade deadline.
Huh? I see it being Sarver PERIOD until Ishbia took over. The conveyance of including the picks to get the KD deal done the 2nd time proves that.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,463
Reaction score
53,152
Huh? I see it being Sarver PERIOD until Ishbia took over. The conveyance of including the picks proves that.

Of course, Sarver owned the team before Mat Ishbia took over. Who is disputing that?

What happened after, is on James Jones and the new owner.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,763
Reaction score
12,815
Location
Arizona
Of course, Sarver owned the team before Mat Ishbia took over. Who is disputing that?

What happened after, is on James Jones and the new owner.
My point was around who was holding the purse strings for most of JJ's tenure. Different owners. Different tolerances for salary.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,463
Reaction score
53,152
My point was around who was holding the purse strings for most of JJ's tenure. Different owners. Different tolerances for salary.

As I mentioned, I didn't have any problems with how Sarver handled the purse strings from the Orlando bubble forward.

Actually, I wish the new owner wouldn't have been so quick to spend the assets the Suns worked hard to gain.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,763
Reaction score
12,815
Location
Arizona
As I mentioned, I didn't have any problems with how Sarver handled the purse strings from the Orlando bubble forward.

Actually, I wish the new owner wouldn't have been so quick to spend the assets the Suns worked hard to gain.
We simply don't know how far into the luxury tax Sarver was willing to go. Nobody does but we know how Sarver has been in the past. That behavior, into the luxury tax or not doesn't evaporate. I am sure he had his limits which is the point.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,463
Reaction score
53,152
We simply don't know how far into the luxury tax Sarver was willing to go. Nobody does but we know how Sarver has been in the past. That behavior, into the luxury tax or not doesn't evaporate. I am sure he had his limits which is the point.

I think replacing Crowder with another rotation power forward and adding another point guard would have been more than enough to make the Suns a contender this season. There was no need for the Suns to make a big splash.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,763
Reaction score
12,815
Location
Arizona
I think replacing Crowder with another rotation power forward and adding another point guard would have been more than enough to make the Suns a contender this season. There was no need for the Suns to make a big splash.
Historic collapses 2 years running says contenders who won't get a title.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
540,995
Posts
5,296,866
Members
6,290
Latest member
stbmd
Top