The state of the Phoenix/Glendale Coyotes

[ghteach]

The definition of PATHETIC in hockey – a 4-3 game in your home building and you are trailing with 3 minutes to go. You look around the building and realize it is 80 percent EMPTY. Furthermore, you had to bribe the masses to show up with dollar hot dogs and beer. Please someone tell me if any of this would happen at the Joe, Madison Square Garden or the United Center. If I am a prospective owner I would run for the hills for the price the NHL is asking. Worse, your GM and coach have no power with payroll due to the league running this team to better personnel both on the bench and on the ice. Not that I blame Tippet, I actually feel sorry for him for having to deal with this mess. I can imagine what he could do with a descent payroll and a committed owner. Winning once a week does not cut it in this league and the schedule just gets worse. Your goalie is average at best and the puck handling is awful. I love this sport but when you have no home advantage with a half empty arena with no potential owner and the league shopping you reality sets in. I truly believe (I preface this by saying I hope they find a solid owner and stay) the Yotes are gone after this year. The markets I see are Vegas, Seattle, Quebec, Kansas City, Manitoba, and other Midwest cities where hockey is followed like a religion and a building would fill and make the league money where it is falling into a dark hole here. What is even sadder is that the city of Glendale would still have to fork out 25 mil a year either way to maintain the building and the NHL would NEVER come back here. So what do replace 42 night with – tractor pulls – 3,000 for minor league hockey EVEN WORSE - the Westgate center where the arena is would die without hockey. Trust me, I have spoken to business owners who are dreading even the prospect of the Yotes leaving cause of the crowds and dollars they make on game nights. You are looking at thousands of jobs lost without the NHL and again 80 percent of the building empty tonight with a one goal deficit game and over three minutes to play.
Seems like Jerry Reinsdorf has backed away which leaves the ex-CEO of the Sharks and both the city and the league continue to feed the line that they want to badly to keep the team in Phoenix. Probably because this would be humiliating to Bettman as he said hockey would flourish in the desert. Instead, it has been an utter failure and the attendance figures back it up. Sad with so many people living here from hockey towns more can’t show up but it is what it is and now I am afraid we are about to feel the pain Winnipeg felt when the Jets left for the desert.

 

[puckhead]

The definition of PATHETIC in hockey – a 4-3 game in your home building and you are trailing with 3 minutes to go. You look around the building and realize it is 80 percent EMPTY...

I love a good rant as much as the next guy, but the above regarding Saturday's game is BS. You can state your beliefs without exaggerating.

Carry on.

 

[wilycoyote24]

The state of the Phoenix Coyotes is that after this season, they will not exist. If you are the type of person comfortable picking another team to follow, now is probably as good a time as any to switch allegiances.

As much as I want them to stay, objectively they really, really need to be moved or contracted. Unless the NHL is prepared to move their season to coincide with the MLB (meaning, during the 115 degree summer), hockey can't survive in Phoenix.

 

[ghteach]

Facts

I was there with in section 204 with those 3 minutes and that building was 75 percent empty. All the dollar drunks left I guess. Anyway , the facts are not the Yotes are dead last in attendence, the NHL has them way overpriced for a sale and they will not own them next season. You tell me where that seems to go?

 

[puckhead]

I was there with in section 204 with those 3 minutes and that building was 75 percent empty. All the dollar drunks left I guess. Anyway , the facts are not the Yotes are dead last in attendence, the NHL has them way overpriced for a sale and they will not own them next season. You tell me where that seems to go?

Fact: This is your second post here at ASFN and you would like us all to take you at your word without even introducing yourself, let alone establishing any sort of credibility.

Fact: You have already exaggerated by at least 5% compared to your original post.

Fact: Your anecdotal evidence, as compelling as it is, does not jive well with the reported box score statistics presented by ESPN here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=400047500
which states that there were ~12,700 in attendance.

You are telling me that ~8500 people left Jobing.com Arena between the 1st intermission and the last 3 minutes of the 3rd period even though by then the Coyotes had cut the lead to 1. I suppose it’s possible, but I was at the game myself in section 106 and did not come away with the impression it was even less than 60% of capacity. Especially since the comeback was on in earnest by the point you continue to reference (3 minutes to go). However, I do not claim to have the uncanny ability to visually ascertain the factual percentage of capacity in 17,000 seat arenas.

You then go on to disparage the “Buck Bash” promotion which sells shots of domestic beer, 8oz sodas, and 15cent hotdogs for a dollar. I would love to see your crusade supporting obnoxious food and beverage prices at movie theaters sometime.

Fact: No matter how many electrons we inconvenience on ASFN’s server, nothing you or I type here will have any bearing on the outcome of the Phoenix Coyotes future in Glendale.

Personally, I am content to enjoy NHL hockey in the Valley for as long as I can feeling confident I did what I could to support the team while they were here. You are welcome to voice your opinion any way you like here within the rules of the board. Just be prepared to be called out when you try and represent your opinions as fact.

 

[Scott MS]

Add this guy to the countless un-informed who post on espn.com or tsn.com about the Coyotes and don't understand what has unfolded with this team during the past 7-8 years.

The Coyotes had a strong following and were a good team before a series of three events unfolded: Team purchased by Moyes, hired Gretzky as coach, and team declared bankruptcy and is bought by NHL. This franchise has seen a constant decline in interest and attendance since then. As much as I respected Gretzky as a player, he was an absolute horrible coach. I had Coyotes season tickets in Section 111 from 2005 to 2009. I ended being a season ticket holder when they declared bankruptcy and Moyes sent out a letter telling me that my funds were in jeopardy (although I never did make a deposit yet). Since then, the attendance has declined steadily as the NHL has tried to figure out what to do with the team and it's future. Pretty sad, really. I still see no reason to invest back into the team when they are unloading tickets through a 3rd party in "Club Red" in the center of the ice on Stub Hub for sometimes as low as $20/game.

Here's a link to NHL average attendance.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

Here's the Coyotes average home attendance during the past 7 years:

2011-12 11,589 (30th)
2010-11 12,188 (29th)
2009-10 11,989 (30th)
2008-09 14,875 (28th)
2007-08 14,820 (29th)
2006-07 14,988 (24th)
2005-06 15,582 (22nd)

Clearly you can see the effect of the Gretzky years (2005-2009) resulting in steadly attendance decline. In fact, the new arena opened in December 2003 and the Coyotes played 1/2 a season there before the full-year lockout in 2004-05.

Further, see the decline in attendance since the bankrupty and the NHL ownership. Attendance dropped about 3,000 per game. The idea that we are supposed to step up and attend games to "save the team" is nonsense. There are no guarantees my support is going to keep them in town.

The NHL is in trouble. There are no prospective buyers out there to take on either the Blues or the Coyotes -- both money losing franchise. Throw in the Islanders and the situation gets worse. Contraction, to me, sounds like a better idea than forcing moves to other markets that may have difficulty sustaining a NHL payroll.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

The state of the Phoenix Coyotes is that after this season, they will not exist. If you are the type of person comfortable picking another team to follow, now is probably as good a time as any to switch allegiances.

As much as I want them to stay, objectively they really, really need to be moved or contracted. Unless the NHL is prepared to move their season to coincide with the MLB (meaning, during the 115 degree summer), hockey can't survive in Phoenix.

There is now an agreement in place between the Ville-de-Québec, the provincial / federal governments and the owner of a Quebec based multi-billion dollar publishing and broadcasting empire to build a new arena. They will be bidders for the franchise with the proviso that they play in an older existing rink while the new one is constructed.

 

[Scott MS]

Quebec may be a sustainable market in the short term, but if they were to re-acquire an NHL team, they would be the smallest market in all of major sports in North America. They are actually a smaller market than Green Bay, which is currently the smallest.

But let's admit it, the NHL is no longer a money making businesses for the majority of teams. Teams are relocating back into the hands of passionate Canadian billionaires who are willing to lose their personal money to keep these teams afloat as a hobby.

Fixes the problem today, but not long term.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Add this guy to the countless un-informed who post on espn.com or tsn.com about the Coyotes and don't understand what has unfolded with this team during the past 7-8 years.

The Coyotes had a strong following and were a good team before a series of three events unfolded: Team purchased by Moyes, hired Gretzky as coach, and team declared bankruptcy and is bought by NHL. This franchise has seen a constant decline in interest and attendance since then. As much as I respected Gretzky as a player, he was an absolute horrible coach. I had Coyotes season tickets in Section 111 from 2005 to 2009. I ended being a season ticket holder when they declared bankruptcy and Moyes sent out a letter telling me that my funds were in jeopardy (although I never did make a deposit yet). Since then, the attendance has declined steadily as the NHL has tried to figure out what to do with the team and it's future. Pretty sad, really. I still see no reason to invest back into the team when they are unloading tickets through a 3rd party in "Club Red" in the center of the ice on Stub Hub for sometimes as low as $20/game.

Here's a link to NHL average attendance.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

Here's the Coyotes average home attendance during the past 7 years:

2011-12 11,589 (30th)
2010-11 12,188 (29th)
2009-10 11,989 (30th)
2008-09 14,875 (28th)
2007-08 14,820 (29th)
2006-07 14,988 (24th)
2005-06 15,582 (22nd)

Clearly you can see the effect of the Gretzky years (2005-2009) resulting in steadly attendance decline. In fact, the new arena opened in December 2003 and the Coyotes played 1/2 a season there before the full-year lockout in 2004-05.

Further, see the decline in attendance since the bankrupty and the NHL ownership. Attendance dropped about 3,000 per game. The idea that we are supposed to step up and attend games to "save the team" is nonsense. There are no guarantees my support is going to keep them in town.

The NHL is in trouble. There are no prospective buyers out there to take on either the Blues or the Coyotes -- both money losing franchise. Throw in the Islanders and the situation gets worse. Contraction, to me, sounds like a better idea than forcing moves to other markets that may have difficulty sustaining a NHL payroll.[/QUOTE]

Not true. There are interests in southern Ontario (outside Toronto) who will gladly bid to bring another NHL team to the area, and Quebec City is champing at the bit.

 

[Scott MS]

Here is a great article regarding the state of affairs of the NHL:

NEW YORK – The average value of National Hockey League teams has hit a new high amid growing revenue, but player salaries are a drag on profitability, Forbes reported.
The average hockey team is now worth $240 million, up 5 percent from last year due to a 5 percent revenue increase during the 2010-2011 season to an average of $103 million per team, it said. Among other revenue sources, sponsorship and merchandise sales are up.

But teams’ bottom line is under pressure. During the 2010-2011 season, the league posted an operating profit of $126 million, down 21 percent amid an 11 percent increase in player costs, according to Forbes. Last season, 18 of the league’s 30 teams lost money, compared with 16 a year earlier, it said.

Franchise values, on average, are increasing. Yet, teams saw an AVERAGE of 5% increase in revenue last year but 18 of the league's 30 teams lost money (vs 16 out of 20 the previous year). Are expenses out of control or are the profitable teams taking a bigger piece of the pie?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Quebec may be a sustainable market in the short term, but if they were to re-acquire an NHL team, they would be the smallest market in all of major sports in North America. They are actually a smaller market than Green Bay, which is currently the smallest.

But let's admit it, the NHL is no longer a money making businesses for the majority of teams. Teams are relocating back into the hands of passionate Canadian billionaires who are willing to lose their personal money to keep these teams afloat as a hobby.

Fixes the problem today, but not long term.

Quebec City is a regional centre and, as such, is both larger and more affluent than Green Bay. No doubt, there are issues for some teams in the U.S. and I can't speak to the solutions, but up here there is still money to be made off hockey. The Canadian teams are subsidizing more than a few teams south of our border.

 

[wilycoyote24]

Quebec City is a regional centre and, as such, is both larger and more affluent than Green Bay. No doubt, there are issues for some teams in the U.S. and I can't speak to the solutions, but up here there is still money to be made off hockey. The Canadian teams are subsidizing more than a few teams south of our border.

This is exactly the reason why the NHL needs to contract. Canada's population isn't large enough to support all the money-draining American teams. Really, who thinks a hockey team in Phoenix, south Florida, or worst of all, ATLANTA is a good idea? Just stay away from the South... unless NASCAR will start a Zamboni race. Probably the same people that will bring an NHL franchise to Ciudad Juarez one day.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

This is exactly the reason why the NHL needs to contract. Canada's population isn't large enough to support all the money-draining American teams. Really, who thinks a hockey team in Phoenix, south Florida, or worst of all, ATLANTA is a good idea? Just stay away from the South... unless NASCAR will start a Zamboni race. Probably the same people that will bring an NHL franchise to Ciudad Juarez one day.

I'm not against a bit of contraction, but doubt it will happen. While Tampa is problematic the Panthers are doing quite well given all of the snow birds in that area of the state.

 

[chickenhead]

Quebec is a small market, but it is a strong hockey market with virtually no local competition at the professional level. Phoenix is a much bigger city, but a weak hockey market with local competition from the other three major sports. Quebec would resume an insane rivalry with one of the most valuable franchises in the league. Phoenix doesn't even really have a rival.

I'm not bashing Phoenix, my hometown, or Coyotes fans in any way. But I think the NHL came out of the lockout with the understanding that the casual fans it coveted are not there, and that core fans are the key. It would have been unthinkable for Winnipeg to get a team back before this change in thinking. And obviously the Canadian dollar being close to par has leveled things to a certain extent.

And it's not just a Sun Belt problem, since both the Islanders and Devils are in trouble, too. Having a building at near-capacity for 41 nights a year isn't taken for granted the way it once was.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Quebec is a small market, but it is a strong hockey market with virtually no local competition at the professional level. Phoenix is a much bigger city, but a weak hockey market with local competition from the other three major sports. Quebec would resume an insane rivalry with one of the most valuable franchises in the league. Phoenix doesn't even really have a rival.

I'm not bashing Phoenix, my hometown, or Coyotes fans in any way. But I think the NHL came out of the lockout with the understanding that the casual fans it coveted are not there, and that core fans are the key. It would have been unthinkable for Winnipeg to get a team back before this change in thinking. And obviously the Canadian dollar being close to par has leveled things to a certain extent.

And it's not just a Sun Belt problem, since both the Islanders and Devils are in trouble, too. Having a building at near-capacity for 41 nights a year isn't taken for granted the way it once was.

What are you doing in TO?

 

[Scott MS]

And it's not just a Sun Belt problem, since both the Islanders and Devils are in trouble, too. Having a building at near-capacity for 41 nights a year isn't taken for granted the way it once was.

Very true. There are a lot of franchises losing money (I noted 18 out of 30 from the Forbes article) and it affects long-standing teams like St. Louis, New York Islanders, New Jersey Devils, etc.

Back to the Coyotes, I'm not sure this mess will be sorted out prior to a new labor agreement. Also, although contraction might be a better option, the league won't do it, because it would require the other owners to buy out the contracted teams, and the league isn't profitable enough for that.

What further complicates Glendale and the Coyotes is that the city paid for a new stadium 8 years ago for the team. This would be unprecedent for a team to leave a town AFTER a new stadium was build for them. Usually it's the opposite -- team's leave because they can't get a new building. It would sure make cities think again about building sports arenas for professional teams.

 

[chickenhead]

What are you doing in TO?

I was born in Canada but we moved to Phoenix when I was a kid. I've been back and forth a few times in my adult life. I go from knowing the most about hockey to knowing the least every few years...

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I was born in Canada but we moved to Phoenix when I was a kid. I've been back and forth a few times in my adult life. I go from knowing the most about hockey to knowing the least every few years...

 

[Crazy Canuck]

FYI:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/02/12/passion-for-hockey-glows

 

[Lefty]

Let's hope this is true.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...756163.html;_ylt=AhcecBCsqQAbxhukFgW0RH97vLYF

 

[82CardsGrad]

Let's hope this is true.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...756163.html;_ylt=AhcecBCsqQAbxhukFgW0RH97vLYF

Man I hope they stay... however, heard in interview with Barry Melrose today on Sirius/XM, and he says that once the deal is done, the team will be shipped to Quebec... hope he's wrong.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

hope he's wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Apparently Hulsizer is at the game tonight and has recently purchased a house here.

Who knows what's going on here, though? Crazy.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Man I hope they stay... however, heard in interview with Barry Melrose today on Sirius/XM, and he says that once the deal is done, the team will be shipped to Quebec... hope he's wrong.

The Jamison group is not looking to move the team.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Wouldn't be the first time.

Apparently Hulsizer is at the game tonight and has recently purchased a house here.

Who knows what's going on here, though? Crazy.

Hulsizer was in the running last year with the situation with bonds & GWI .... for those who weren't sure if he was serious about owning a team, he later went on to buy the St. Louis Blues this year - so he obviously has zero to do with anything Coyotes anymore

The Jamison group is not looking to move the team.

exactly - Jamison would be the best option at this time, especially when you consider what he did in SJ and his ability to build partnerships .... there has been zero discussion or real debate about if jamison would move the team or not as it's pretty well agreed upon that he wouldn't ....... his issues have been putting together an ownership group that can pass league approval and negotiating a comprehensive deal for the purchase

at this point I'm not going to really believe anything ...... what's the point

everyone has speculation, everyone has a source ....... at this point I'm just hopeful something gets done, even if i'm still pessimistic that it will not

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I thought Hulsizer's deal in Saint Louis fell through, but I'm not positive.

Hopefully Jamison's group can seal something, but I'm not holding my breath. At least the team is interesting now.