The desperate desire to trade down is frustrating

[motion3]

I have very little faith in Kiem (who is sounds like he may be returning) to spend picks on OL.
Cardinals Fantastic O-Line Drafting Since 2000

2000
No pick

2001
Leonard Davis T: Failed to succeed at tackle after 6 seasons in AZ. Last 5 were successful at RG elsewhere. Disaster. Too high a pick and too much money to put him at guard where he excelled. Kept trying to justify the investment by ramming a square peg into a round hole.

2002
No pick

2003
6th round Reggie Wells G/T: 6 years in AZ almost entirely at LG.

2004
4th round Aleksandar Stepanovich C: 3 years in AZ at C.
6th round Nick Leckey C/G: 3 years in AZ at C.

2005
4th round Elton Brown: 3 years as a backup in AZ.

2006
2nd round Deuce Lutui G: 6 years at RG in AZ.

2007
Levi Brown T: Another player with a huge contract and draft position. Cardinals invested heavily in his suceess and failed. 6 year disaster at RT and LT for AZ.

2008
7th round Brandon Keith T: 3 years as a backup in AZ.

2009
5th round Herman Johnson T: never played a game.
7th round Trevor Canfield G: never played a game.

2010
No pick

2011
No pick

2012
4th round Bobby Massie T: 4 years at RT for AZ before joining Bears.
5th Senio Kelemete T: gone after year, after doing some time with the Saints is now with the Texans.
7th Nate Potter T: couple years as a backup then out of the league.

2013
Jonathan Cooper G: 2 disaster years with AZ, tried Patriots, Browns, Cowboys, and now a backup on the Redskins.
4th round Earl Watford G: 4 years with AZ, and now with the Browns.

2014
No pick

2015
1st round D.J. Humphries T: LT for AZ last 3 years.

2016
4th round Evan Boehm C/G: 2 years with AZ, now with Colts.
5th round Cole Toner T: Cut after 1 year.

2017
4th Dorian Johnson G: Didn't play a single game.
5th Will Holden T/: 1 season as a backup and then cut.

2018
3rd Mason Cole C: playing first year.
7th Korey Cunningham T: playing first year.

I guess we'll see how Humphries plays out, but 1st round OL picks have been disastrous for this organization.

 

[wa52lz]

We needed offensive linemen in 2007 when we took Levi Brown at #5 overall. Adrian Peterson went two picks later. How did that work out?

Superbowl in 2008. Five winning seasons to Minnesota's four with AP, four playoff appearances like Minnesota, but 5 playoff wins to their 1, so not too bad.

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[motion3]

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl-draft-hall-famers-come-003451925.html

Stats, history, record, etc. shows that the best players are taken at the top. The earlier the better.

Imagine if Suggs was with the team for the superbowl run instead of those 2 busts we picked up later.

 

[scandalous_b]

Superbowl in 2008. Five winning seasons to Minnesota's four with AP, four playoff appearances like Minnesota, but 5 playoff wins to their 1, so not too bad.

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If you want to use team success as your key metric to measure the value of an individual - that's on you.

By your logic - lets trade Patrick Peterson to the Patriots for Nate Ebner. Ebner has won 2 Super Bowls to Peterson's none. He's also made the playoffs every single year. He has to be a better player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's been mocked to #1 pretty much all year. This is one of the few years in recent history where no one is actually arguing about who should be the top pick (besides us).


Trade to someone who desperately wants the top DL guy... so we can pick up a DL guy they're not sold on.


I think this is silly, but sure, you want to fill needs instead of picking elite talent and filling in the holes. I get it, but it's frustrating.


This. Very much this.

dude... after last year's belly-aching about not signing an ELITE QB at a ridiculous salary who turned out to be EXACTLY what most of us said he was and now is a drain and cancer around what should be a playoff team's neck, I'm going to take your "elite" talk and condemnation with a gigantic grain of salt.

 

[GatorAZ]

Superbowl in 2008. Five winning seasons to Minnesota's four with AP, four playoff appearances like Minnesota, but 5 playoff wins to their 1, so not too bad.

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Cards could win the West in AP’s first season and probably 4-5 straight. Kurt’s career gets extended by two years and it’s the greatest run in franchise history.

 

[DVontel]

I feel like the Colts-Jets trade earlier this year was the only trade where the trade back team actually went out greatly in a very, very long time.

 

[wa52lz]

Cards could win the West in AP’s first season and probably 4-5 straight. Kurt’s career gets extended by two years and it’s the greatest run in franchise history.

Or does Kurt not ever see the field again as a starter because Matt Leinart is "good enough" in an AP led run first(Smel) offense? Plus how realistic is it that we even take AP, Edge was in year two of a big four year contract and had run for 1200 yds in 2006. Maybe we should have went LaRon Landry instead of Brown or AP, so Rolle would've been in as an extra DB instead of Ralph Brown or Fransisco?

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[Solar7]

dude... after last year's belly-aching about not signing an ELITE QB at a ridiculous salary who turned out to be EXACTLY what most of us said he was and now is a drain and cancer around what should be a playoff team's neck, I'm going to take your "elite" talk and condemnation with a gigantic grain of salt.

And I'm guessing you've never made a bad call on a player?

Come on, stumping for a guy who was a top ten QB for three years doesn't mean I know nothing about the sport.

 

[DVontel]

And I'm guessing you've never made a bad call on a player?

Come on, stumping for a guy who was a top ten QB for three years doesn't mean I know nothing about the sport.

He was never top 10, brother.

You’re going to pull up stats but we all knew(or now know) he’s garbage time stat piling God.

 

[GatorAZ]

Or does Kurt not ever see the field again as a starter because Matt Leinart is "good enough" in an AP led run first(Smel) offense? Plus how realistic is it that we even take AP, Edge was in year two of a big four year contract and had run for 1200 yds in 2006. Maybe we should have went LaRon Landry instead of Brown or AP, so Rolle would've been in as an extra DB instead of Ralph Brown or Fransisco?

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Nah, give me the HOF.

 

[Solar7]

He was never top 10, brother.

Statistically, he was. However we want to pretend we all ranked him doesn't matter.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And I'm guessing you've never made a bad call on a player?

Come on, stumping for a guy who was a top ten QB for three years doesn't mean I know nothing about the sport.

it does when you can't even admit he WAS NEVER A TOP TEN QB STILL.

I mean, holy cow. the idea that He was a top 10 QB is laughable. The guy has NEVER even thrown for 30 TDs in a season when QBs are whizzing the ball around the league like crazy.

He is, was and will always BE a rich man's Sam Bradford who could never beat a winning team if his life depended on it, was a .500 level starter who piled up stats in garbage time.

AND YOU STILL CAN'T ADMIT IT.

 

[DVontel]

Statistically, he was. However we want to pretend we all ranked him doesn't matter.

Cousins is garbage time stat-piling God. C’mon man. He always goes into shell-shock when he plays in a big game.

Dude is sub-par at best. Washington isn’t the brightest of an organization, but when a QB gets franchised TWICE & still doesn’t get resigned by that team.....it’s not good.

 

[Solar7]

it does when you can't even admit he WAS NEVER A TOP TEN QB STILL.

I mean, holy cow. the idea that He was a top 10 QB is laughable. The guy has NEVER even thrown for 30 TDs in a season when QBs are whizzing the ball around the league like crazy.

He is, was and will always BE a rich man's Sam Bradford who could never beat a winning team if his life depended on it, was a .500 level starter who piled up stats in garbage time.

AND YOU STILL CAN'T ADMIT IT.

I already admitted I was wrong. All I'm saying, is that for three years, he found himself in the statistical top ten of all of the important metrics of the position. That's not debatable. We can argue all day artificial ranks, but he's statistically been top 10.

I'm happy we didn't get him now, but it doesn't change what he was.

Cousins is garbage time stat-piling God. C’mon man. He always goes into shell-shock when he plays in a big game.

Dude is sub-par at best. Washington isn’t the brightest of an organization, but when a QB gets franchised TWICE & still doesn’t get resigned by that team.....it’s not good.

Again, I'm not saying he's a top ten QB if you could list the ten guys you want from any team in the league. All I'm saying is that the stats were there. Regardless of how they piled up, they were there.

 

[BigRedRage]

I'm genuinely struggling to understand why so many of you want to move away from a consensus #1 player. I get that it's not a "need," but we're staring down a potentially elite player, and some of you want to exchange him for a bunch of warm bodies.

If our pass rush is elite, it'll cover up a lot of holes on this team, as opposed to hoping that a bunch of other players that were passed over happen to pan out.

Getting say, the fifth pick this year and a first next year is not, warm bodies.

Everything I've read on bosa is that he is not a generational player.

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[Harry]

The term consensus top pick hasn’t meant much in the past. Here’s the list of the first non-QBs taken,

http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3...ed-no.-1-overall-in-modern-era-power-rankings

Look at a few draft first rounds and then tell me how often the top non-QB selected turned out to be the top player in the round. I know people are worried about Keim but the studies I posted earlier make it clear your odds are better working with more picks. I like playing the odds. BTW a great many DEs on the list.

 

[cardncubfan]

I have very little faith in Kiem (who is sounds like he may be returning) to spend picks on OL.
Cardinals Fantastic O-Line Drafting Since 2000

2000
No pick

2001
Leonard Davis T: Failed to succeed at tackle after 6 seasons in AZ. Last 5 were successful at RG elsewhere. Disaster. Too high a pick and too much money to put him at guard where he excelled. Kept trying to justify the investment by ramming a square peg into a round hole.

2002
No pick

2003
6th round Reggie Wells G/T: 6 years in AZ almost entirely at LG.

2004
4th round Aleksandar Stepanovich C: 3 years in AZ at C.
6th round Nick Leckey C/G: 3 years in AZ at C.

2005
4th round Elton Brown: 3 years as a backup in AZ.

2006
2nd round Deuce Lutui G: 6 years at RG in AZ.

2007
Levi Brown T: Another player with a huge contract and draft position. Cardinals invested heavily in his suceess and failed. 6 year disaster at RT and LT for AZ.

2008
7th round Brandon Keith T: 3 years as a backup in AZ.

2009
5th round Herman Johnson T: never played a game.
7th round Trevor Canfield G: never played a game.

2010
No pick

2011
No pick

2012
4th round Bobby Massie T: 4 years at RT for AZ before joining Bears.
5th Senio Kelemete T: gone after year, after doing some time with the Saints is now with the Texans.
7th Nate Potter T: couple years as a backup then out of the league.

2013
Jonathan Cooper G: 2 disaster years with AZ, tried Patriots, Browns, Cowboys, and now a backup on the Redskins.
4th round Earl Watford G: 4 years with AZ, and now with the Browns.

2014
No pick

2015
1st round D.J. Humphries T: LT for AZ last 3 years.

2016
4th round Evan Boehm C/G: 2 years with AZ, now with Colts.
5th round Cole Toner T: Cut after 1 year.

2017
4th Dorian Johnson G: Didn't play a single game.
5th Will Holden T/: 1 season as a backup and then cut.

2018
3rd Mason Cole C: playing first year.
7th Korey Cunningham T: playing first year.

I guess we'll see how Humphries plays out, but 1st round OL picks have been disastrous for this organization.

Looks like Keim drafted OL's in every year he was GM except one. It wasn't for lack of trying.

 

[sportznutt]

I'm genuinely struggling to understand why so many of you want to move away from a consensus #1 player. I get that it's not a "need," but we're staring down a potentially elite player, and some of you want to exchange him for a bunch of warm bodies.

If our pass rush is elite, it'll cover up a lot of holes on this team, as opposed to hoping that a bunch of other players that were passed over happen to pan out.

To each their own and when it comes to opinions. I think we have so many holes that if we can get multiple picks then we can fill those holes with players. I’m also hopeful that many teams will try to trade up and offer a boatload of pucks too.

 

[wa52lz]

The term consensus top pick hasn’t meant much in the past. Here’s the list of the first non-QBs taken,

http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3...ed-no.-1-overall-in-modern-era-power-rankings

Look at a few draft first rounds and then tell me how often the top non-QB selected turned out to be the top player in the round. I know people are worried about Keim but the studies I posted earlier make it clear your odds are better working with more picks. I like playing the odds. BTW a great many DEs on the list.

Ouch! I hope Bosa isnt the new Steve
Emtman

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[Proximo]

Ouch! I hope Bosa isnt the new Steve
Emtman

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He easily could be. I watch tape on him, and I am really not impressed.

I think if his last name was not Bosa, he would not be the consensus Number 1.

 

[DVontel]

To each their own and when it comes to opinions. I think we have so many holes that if we can get multiple picks then we can fill those holes with players. I’m also hopeful that many teams will try to trade up and offer a boatload of pucks too.

Do we want to make the same mistake twice all over again, though? First Suggs, now this.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

He easily could be. I watch tape on him, and I am really not impressed.

I think if his last name was not Bosa, he would not be the consensus Number 1.

Not a lot of recent tape since he played only 3 games all season, right?

 

[kerouac9]

Do we want to make the same mistake twice all over again, though? First Suggs, now this.

Suggs was 15 years ago. It is a similar situation, though. Mac was a desperate head coach heading into a season the hot seat and wanted to improve the overall talent level on the roster instead of adding a single star. We would have drafted Jonathan Sullivan, tho, so it doesn't matter much.

I think we have enough star power on this team to compete – unlike in 2002. We just don't have the meat on the roster that allows those guys to shine. I don't think that Keim would trade back from 1 to 10 without reaping a king's ransom in return, but if you can move back 3-4 spots and pick up a #2 and #1 in return, I don't see why you wouldn't make that deal.

 

[crisper57]

Why wouldn't you want more swings at top-tier prospects instead of a hit-or-miss on a position that we don't really need?

I don't get that.

The Rams started to build their current team by trading down, didn't they?