the Boston story

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I'm not a big guy....I might have kicked you in the balls and ran!

Seriously though, I hoped that finally we could have a star that wasn't a complete jackass, and I will admit in this instance I didn't want to admit what was clearly going on.

He didn't want to be here, he was using drugs, and he was getting too big for his own good.

What we have to realize is that most big stars as jackasses - that's why they are stars - their talent affords them the leeway to do whatever they want - it's so rare to get a good guy and be a star and if this team is going to wait until it gets a team of those - it will be a long wait indeed.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Cardiac
ACZB34, I usually agree with your points of view but I do have to disagree with you here. In the NFL team morale and chemistry play a huge part in a teams success. For every Irving there is and Emmitt and Jerry Rice and Brett Favre. Just because someone has elite talent doesn't mean they have to be an ass. I think it is usually the opposite. Players that make a big difference for the long term are usually leaders on the team. Doing drugs, skipping meetings and caring only about themselves are not Hall of Fame attributes.

Except Favre had a painkiller or alcohol problem (cannot remember which), Rice was supposedly busted in some "massage" parlor (Russ I think mentioned that once).

I never tried to suggest morale/chemistry was unimportant and if I came across that way then I was way off because it is important. I guess my point was, of all the jerks and asses in the NFL, how many of them are considered star players? Lewis, Irvin, even Favre with his issues are among the top. Sapp had issues coming into the NFL. Moss. Just seems to be a system of spoiled stars who do think they live by different rules.

Doing all that crazy stuff will not get you into Canton very often that''s for sure.

 

[hef]

FAVRE WAS ADDICTED TO VICODINE THAT WAS PERSCRIBED TO HIM AFTER SOME INJURY I THINK IT WAS IN A CAR ACCIDENT

 

[Cardiac]

Originally posted by AZCB34
Except Favre had a painkiller or alcohol problem (cannot remember which), Rice was supposedly busted in some "massage" parlor (Russ I think mentioned that once).

I never tried to suggest morale/chemistry was unimportant and if I came across that way then I was way off because it is important. I guess my point was, of all the jerks and asses in the NFL, how many of them are considered star players? Lewis, Irvin, even Favre with his issues are among the top. Sapp had issues coming into the NFL. Moss. Just seems to be a system of spoiled stars who do think they live by different rules.

Doing all that crazy stuff will not get you into Canton very often that''s for sure.

I would say Lewis and Irvin best fit this scenario, Favre's issue was answered by hef.

Sapp's issues were mostly if not entirely rumors. Now I will admit he is a knucklehead but not the cancer DB appears to be.

The thing about Lewis is that he is all about his team and being a leader. Something that DB doesn't even get close to.

I do agree that it's impossible to assemble a team that doesn't have a couple of players that have "issues". The key is to limit the number of those players and how big their "issues" are.

 

[Cardiac]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Okay - I just have a bit of problem with those two paragraphs. DB signed the first place he went for a good chunk of change - besides, we know that Baltimore had expressed interest - and who's to say no one else was interested - did we know the Cards were interested in Hodgins? Darling? Did we know the Pats were that interested in Colvin - it seemed to me that that one came out of nowhere - hell even with Dexter Jackson - interest wasn't known in him until he scheduled his trip and then there was more coverage because of the bidding war with the Steelers. There's a lot of things that we don't know about player interest and there are things we do, but to to point blank say no one was else was interested can't be supported by facts.

On to your next claim - let's see - right now we are 17.5 million dollars under the cap - say we had signed Colvin and his cap figure was around 6 million (and that's high -probably around 5) - that shaves the cap down to 11.5 million - okay so are you telling me that we would have still gone after Holliday as well and kept after him when it was appraent he wouldn't have wanted to be here if he had his choice? Also did they really think they would have had a shot at getting BOTH OF THE TOP RATED PASS RUSHERS IN FREE AGENCY? Even if that were the case - okay - they got both and planned that way - there's another 4 million on the cap - so that's 7.5 million - now if they had tagged Boston - they still could have gotten ALL THOSE GUYS YOU MENTIONED WE DID SIGN as well as having the cap roomn to sign Colvin and Holliday and still had 2.5 left over - now if no one bit after the draft - then you take the tag off, giving yourself cap room for the rookies as well as room to go find a WR at June 1st -(especially considering that we have appeared to make no effort to do so during the pre-draft FA period - which I cannot believe) but at least make the earnest try to get something - saying something wouldn't have been there when no one even tried to see is a self-defeating argument.

But now what it boils down to it seems for you is that the Cards didn't want to deal with a situation that could have been sticky, yet fruitful in some ways so they could go get al those other free agents, who subsequently turned them down - WELL THAT SOUNDS GREAT TO ME! Sorry, IMO, I just can't understand the reasoning in defending the non-use of the tag.

So let's put aside the entire money issue and minimize the impact on the team's morale if the FA period was a huge DB issue.

Why do you think the Falcons and Redskins decided to give up first rd draft picks instead of going after DB. I would think if they held him in such high regard they would have busted a nut to get a crack (pun intended) at him. The Ravens had such a desire for DB that they settled for Sanders, they also didn't show a high degree of interest. Now consider the "interest" these teams would have had in DB if he was tagged. So not only are the Cards idiots but so are the Falcons, Redskins and Ravens.

I guess I should make the point that it isn't impossible the Cards could have gotten something for DB, I highly doubt a 1st rd pick, but now I will fall back on the team chemistry issue. The Cards weren't worried about a "sticky" situation but what could have blown up in their faces pertaining to team morale and chemistry.

This is the best offseason turn out to date. This tells me that the Cards are finally getting team oriented players and not just me types. Since this is virgin territory for the Cards you and I don't know how this will pay off this season. I'm betting it does reap dividends this year.

 

[hef]

CARDIAC I AGREE 100%
BOTTOM LINE IS THAT WE HAVE ALL DONE STUPID $H_T,THE DIFFERANCE BETWEEN AN IDIOT AND SOMEONE W/ A SHRED OF INTELLIGANCE IS THE ABILITY TO NOT LET THE MISTAKES YOU MAKE AFFECT OTHER PARTS OF YOUR LIFE OR CAREER.
IRVIN IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF MAKING A MISTAKE(WELL A FEW)BUT THEN WAKE UP THE NEXT DAY AND GET THE FRIGGIN JOB DONE AND IF HIS CAREER WAS'NT CUT SHORT HE WOULD STILL BE PLAYING (HOPEFULLY W/HIS BUD HERE IN AZ)AND CLOSING IN ON SOME BIG TIME TIM BROWN /JERRY RICE #'S & RECORDS. DB'S MISTAKES MAY BE SIMILAR BUT HE WILL NEVER BE THE PLAYER THAT MICHAEL IRVIN WAS AND SHOULD STILL BE!!!!

 

[Ryanwb]

Dude, turn off the CAPS lock, I have seen people banned for less.

It is hard to read and makes it sound like you are shouting

 

[hef]

sorry,I was shouting though

 

[Tangodnzr]

Great posts Cardiac!!

 

[Cardiac]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Great posts Cardiac!!

I'm gunning for the Cards fan with the best rose tinted glasses, which means I have you in my sights.

Last year I was blasted for blasting Bidwill. I just had not seen anything from him or the organization that showed any business acumen or a desire to win. Dragging out the Bryant signing was the last straw for me, especially with so many fans blasting Bryant and not seeing up until this off season what was another poor Cards mgmt decision.

It seems some people can't see the difference with RG moves this year compared to every other year prior to this one. This team has made too many good moves this year to think they are complete idiots about DB and in deftones mind Plummer.

RG and Tangodnzr are pulling me into the light, goodbye to the dark side.

cheesebeef - walk towards the light.

 

[Cardiac]

hef - thanks for the support, but I really don't want anyone to think I had an ounce of respect for Irvin. Okay maybe he did introduce the new technique on how to get open, pushing off, but he was and still is an idiot. Can't argue with his competitiveness and at least decent team attitude. The dude just had to much tude for my taste.

 

[Duckjake]

The real "cancer" in the Cardinals locker room is the constant litany of 5-11 seasons. That is the reason all the so called star players eventually want to go somewhere else.

The last 4 years have been terrible (21-43). Anyone who has ever been associated with team sports knows how continual losing sours everything involving the team. The Cards IMHO have realized this and are cleaning house to get some new attitudes in Cardinal Red regardless of the cost.

I hope it works.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Cardiac
I would say Lewis and Irvin best fit this scenario, Favre's issue was answered by hef.

Sapp's issues were mostly if not entirely rumors. Now I will admit he is a knucklehead but not the cancer DB appears to be.

The thing about Lewis is that he is all about his team and being a leader. Something that DB doesn't even get close to.

I do agree that it's impossible to assemble a team that doesn't have a couple of players that have "issues". The key is to limit the number of those players and how big their "issues" are.

I agree with what you are saying here. I don't know about this, but maybe Irvin wasn't even a lockerroom cancer although off the field he was a train wreck. Lewis is a pretty strong team guy but again a wreck off of it.

The Cards were limiting the severity of the issues they would have to deal with when they let Boston walk. I think they did it wrong but clearly it was really a no win for them if you break it down. DB likely would have been a huge problem and in many ways it is good riddance...only if the Cards can somehow "replace" him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

That whole "All stars in the NFL are jackasses" argument is a farce. On big pile of crap. There are plenty of "good" guys in the league that happen to be good players. If you guys want to see I will compile a huge list that would be a complete waste of time.

The point is, most of the players in the NFL are decent people and aren't like a David Boston or a Simeon Rice. The problem I have with Rice, is that he called us the arm pit of the NFL, but he wasn't the deodorant! He didn't do enough here, he never gave his best effort. Boston had many occasions that his effort was questionable.

I honestly believe that slapping him with the tag, just to take it off a few months later would be the lamest thing the Cards could've done. Boston wanted out sooo bad that he would've sulked and not signed the deal until training camp. And the Cards, from the way it sounds were very concerned....off the field issues (an arrest), practice issues (allegedly), best friend with another sulky player that lied to the team (Jones), injury concerns (torn tendon, getting too big for his own good), immaturity problems (taunting), poor atitudes during games (did you ever see him on the bench?), and dropped passes.

7 issues right there, not even addressing the fact that Graves clearly said that there were other issues other than his arrest that he didn't want to talk about. And if he was missing practices and/or team meetings, I can see why Graves didn't want to guarantee a lot of money to this guy

 

[az643dp]

Speaking of cancers, I posted this on another thread the other day. If is fitting here:

"It just bugs me that a back that had so much hype could fall down so easily. The fluke of all flukes happened in Seattle when Tj had a good game. Thomas Jones is loser of a running back that would be a major cancer for any teams locker room. TJ and David Boston can go screw themselves for all I care. They are all in it for themselves. They did a fantastic job at letting all of their teammates down. Boston was pouting on the sidelines during the San Diego game while the game was still in reach. TJ gets in a fight and lies through his teeth about it. He even tried to get his mom to cover for him.

They are two big "Me Players" that I want nothing to do with. Hopefully Boston and TJ will find out quickly that being a "me player" will not work for them. When TJ is finally out of here, I will sit back and watch him and David destroy their respective teams chemistry. Good riddance David and TJ. Take your attitude elsewhere."

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
7 issues right there, not even addressing the fact that Graves clearly said that there were other issues other than his arrest that he didn't want to talk about. And if he was missing practices and/or team meetings, I can see why Graves didn't want to guarantee a lot of money to this guy [/B]

Who do you trust?

Boston supporter Marty Schottenheimer, a coach with 12 winning seasons out of 15, 11 playoff appearances and a winning percentage over .650.

Or Boston doubter Rod Graves, a man who's legacy up until this point has been overseeing the worst string of contractual mishaps outside of the California energy crisis.

But I suppose Grey Davis wouldn't have tagged Boston either.

 

[az643dp]

Originally posted by RLakin
Who do you trust?

Boston supporter Marty Schottenheimer, a coach with 12 winning seasons out of 15, 11 playoff appearances and a winning percentage over .650.

Or Boston doubter Rod Graves, a man's who's legacy up until this point has been overseeing the worst string of contractual mishaps outside of the California energy crisis.

I am trying to figure out what makes you think that Marty would know more about Boston than Graves. Just because his winning percentage is good does not mean he was behind the scenes with the Cardinals last year. I agree with Krang in the fact that there is more about Boston that we will ever know. Graves said something on his KDUS segment like he is "not in the business of airing other peoples dirty laundry" and he left it at that.

The Cardinals certainly would have more info on Boston than any other team. Hell, they dealt with all of his sulking up close and personal last season.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by RLakin
Who do you trust?

Boston supporter Marty Schottenheimer, a coach with 12 winning seasons out of 15, 11 playoff appearances and a winning percentage over .650.

Or Boston doubter Rod Graves, a man who's legacy up until this point has been overseeing the worst string of contractual mishaps outside of the California energy crisis.

But I suppose Grey Davis wouldn't have tagged Boston either.

Was Schottenheimer fully aware of all of the problems that Boston had, I think not. I think that Coach Mac, Rod Graves, and Jerry Sullivan know a little more about David than anyone else in the league. Hell, they know more than any of us.

 

[az643dp]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Was Schottenheimer fully aware of all of the problems that Boston had, I think not. I think that Coach Mac, Rod Graves, and Jerry Sullivan know a little more about David than anyone else in the league. Hell, they know more than any of us.

Amen. Next Issue!

 

[RLakin]

I think not. I think that Coach Mac, Rod Graves, and Jerry Sullivan know a little more about David than anyone else in the league. Hell, they know more than any of us.

So what. He wasn't suspended. Evidently whatever they knew wasn't too significant.

I am trying to figure out what makes you think that Marty would know more about Boston than Graves. Just because his winning percentage is good does not mean he was behind the scenes with the Cardinals last year. I agree with Krang in the fact that there is more about Boston that we will ever know. Graves said something on his KDUS segment like he is "not in the business of airing other peoples dirty laundry" and he left it at that

Not saying that Schottenheimer knows more about Boston. Rather that I would trust someone's judgment who knows how to win over someone that knows how not to sign a 1st round draft pick.

 

[az643dp]

Originally posted by RLakin
So what. He wasn't suspended. Evidently whatever they knew wasn't too significant.



Not saying that Schottenheimer knows more about Boston. Rather that I would trust someone's judgment who knows how to win over someone that knows how not to sign a 1st round draft pick.

A suspension has nothing to do with it. His behavior may not warrant a suspension from the league but it certainly can destroy a team and piss people off.

When Boston was sitting on the bench during a potential GW drive against SD, it not only infuriated Coach Mac but it proved that Boston is a team cancer and had serious problems. I watched Coach Mac get in Boston's face and at that moment I knew the writing was on the wall.

I still think that your arguement is weak. Marty can recognize talent but I have a hunch that if he knew who David truly is that he would have made a different choice for a WR. Who knows...Boston could rack up 1400 yds and 12 TD's this year and Marty would look like a genious. I don't see that happening with his sorry ass attitude. I just hope that he has gotten some help with his issues. No one wants to see anyone in a downward spiral that could have been prevented.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Cardiac
I'm gunning for the Cards fan with the best rose tinted glasses, which means I have you in my sights.

Last year I was blasted for blasting Bidwill. I just had not seen anything from him or the organization that showed any business acumen or a desire to win. Dragging out the Bryant signing was the last straw for me, especially with so many fans blasting Bryant and not seeing up until this off season what was another poor Cards mgmt decision.

It seems some people can't see the difference with RG moves this year compared to every other year prior to this one. This team has made too many good moves this year to think they are complete idiots about DB and in deftones mind Plummer.

RG and Tangodnzr are pulling me into the light, goodbye to the dark side.

cheesebeef - walk towards the light.

I wish I could, but I'm sorry, it's not just the Boston issue that has me doubting Graves - look I'm the happiest person in the world that Jake is gone - hell I was rooting against the Crads late last season because if Jake was screwing up as badly as he was, there was no way he would come back - however, Graves has not delivered so far on his plan IMO - and he has tried to do so and failed up to this point.

The only place RG is pulling me is to the insane asylum - I like the signing of Hodgins, Darling and Jackson - but this team has more holes on it now then it did at the end of last season and that scares the hell out of me (LB, WR, DL - again).

Let me ask any of you this as far as Emmit is concerned - say the Cowboys game wasn't week 7 last year and instead was week 13 - now imagine someone from Dallas coming to our site and telling us that Emmit could still run circles around Shipp's ass - we would have unanimously laughed his ass off the site and told him that Emmit was washed up and way past his prime - You all can say differently, but I won't believe you - tell me what has changed with Emmit besides the fact that he got cut, had no interest from the rest of the league, but is 7 million dollars richer and will be starting for us opening day. And that has been our biggest signing to date - Wherever's Graves' pulling you guys, beware!

 

[az643dp]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
I wish I could, but I'm sorry, it's not just the Boston issue that has me doubting Graves - look I'm the happiest person in the world that Jake is gone - hell I was rooting against the Crads late last season because if Jake was screwing up as badly as he was, there was no way he would come back - however, Graves has not delivered so far on his plan IMO - and he has tried to do so and failed up to this point.

The only place RG is pulling me is to the insane asylum - I like the signing of Hodgins, Darling and Jackson - but this team has more holes on it now then it did at the end of last season and that scares the hell out of me (LB, WR, DL - again).

Let me ask any of you this as far as Emmit is concerned - say the Cowboys game wasn't week 7 last year and instead was week 13 - now imagine someone from Dallas coming to our site and telling us that Emmit could still run circles around Shipp's ass - we would have unanimously laughed his ass off the site and told him that Emmit was washed up and way past his prime - You all can say differently, but I won't believe you - tell me what has changed with Emmit besides the fact that he got cut, had no interest from the rest of the league, but is 7 million dollars richer and will be starting for us opening day. And that has been our biggest signing to date - Wherever's Graves' pulling you guys, beware!

I hear you clucking big chicken. After much deliberation, I am going to give it until they go up to Flagstaff on July 25 to pass judgement. After all, there is so much that can happen in the draft...including the potential of securing a veteran for a pick etc. I am scared to death of the holes that you speak of, but I will try to be patient. June 1 always has surprises as well.

We'll see!

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by az643dp
Marty can recognize talent but I have a hunch that if he knew who David truly is that he would have made a different choice for a WR.

They knew who they were signing. Believe me, there is no stone that goes unturned when it comes to the NFL. SD wouldn't have signed him otherwise.


You can't have it both ways. If Boston was such a cancer(according to the organization), why did they offer him a contract. I thought the point was to rid themselves of troubled athletes not sign them to incentive laden extensions. Or did they not want to retain a player that they were offering $7 million to.

 

[az643dp]

Originally posted by RLakin
They knew who they were signing. Believe me, there is no stone that goes unturned when it comes to the NFL. SD wouldn't have signed him otherwise.


You can't have it both ways. If Boston was such a cancer(according to the organization), why did they offer him a contract. I thought the point was to rid themselves of troubled athletes not sign them to incentive laden extensions. Or did they not want to retain a player that they were offering $7 million to.

They were offering a contract with absolutely no signing bonus at all. It would have given them an out if he messed up...either on the field or off.

David was smart to see if anyone else offered him a contract. Sand Diego took the risk and Baltimore might have.

As far as leaving no stone unturned, San Diego could only do so much investigating. They will never know what went on behind the scenes at the training complex...at his house etc.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Boston will fail. He may very well succeed. The thing that worries me is that "dirty laundry" that Graves was referring to. It must have been something serious for the Cards not to offer any signing bonus whatsoever.