The Big Summer of 2012

[JCSunsfan]

Isiah Thomas? Talk about most overrated PG of all time. He was not even in the talking for MVP candidate in his time over his own teammates.

Dumars was a more complete player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Isiah Thomas? Talk about most overrated PG of all time. He was not even in the talking for MVP candidate in his time over his own teammates.

lol... your insane. 20 ppg, 9 assists, great defensive player, was the unquestioned leader of his team, taking them to the Conference Finals five years in a row, 3 Finals in a row and a 2 two time NBA champ. Yeah... that guy sucked!

 

[slinslin]

He does not measure up to Nash.

If Isiah was so great why wasn't he even considered for the MVP award in his time? His own teammates finished higher in MVP voting.

Isiah in his prime played with 3 top 100 players ever at the same time in Dumas, Rodman and Laimbeer.

Nash never at any point played in his prime with a top 100 player.

Not to mention Isiah Thomas Pistons played at a higher pace than the Suns with Nash so you still have to take 20/9 in perspective and Isiahs defense is totally overrated. He played with a plethora of very good defenders, big men. Isiahs defense did not make the difference for that team really. PG defense in general has little impact.

Can't be bothered to reshash 47 pages but you will see the only ones arguing Isiahs cause seem to be either stupid or biased against Nash simply.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1137317&start=690

 

[Mulli]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2274909&postcount=9

Slinslin do you still think Stephen Curry is better than Derrick Rose?

 

[jagu]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2274909&postcount=9

Slinslin do you still think Stephen Curry is better than Derrick Rose?

Ouch, the Ghost of Postings Past got you there slinsin.

 

[slinslin]

who knows for the first 6 years or so nobody would have believed you if you said that Steve Nash would be better than Kidd, Marbury,Francis..
Lets see what happens when Curry gets on a better team and can stop injuring his ankles.

 

[jagu]

Lets see what happens when Curry gets on a better team and can stop injuring his ankles.

Sounds like excuses slinsin. Curry will never be Derrick Rose.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He does not measure up to Nash.

If Isiah was so great why wasn't he even considered for the MVP award in his time? His own teammates finished higher in MVP voting.

Isiah in his prime played with 3 top 100 players ever at the same time in Dumas, Rodman and Laimbeer.

Nash never at any point played in his prime with a top 100 player.

Not to mention Isiah Thomas Pistons played at a higher pace than the Suns with Nash so you still have to take 20/9 in perspective and Isiahs defense is totally overrated. He played with a plethora of very good defenders, big men. Isiahs defense did not make the difference for that team really. PG defense in general has little impact.

Can't be bothered to reshash 47 pages but you will see the only ones arguing Isiahs cause seem to be either stupid or biased against Nash simply.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1137317&start=690

wow, i don't even know where to begin. oh yes i do. do the names, magic, larry, and michael mean anything to you? how about hakeem and malone? isiah had way too much competition for mvp compared to nash. was nash deserving of his mvps? yes. but he fell in a historical sweet spot too where most of the mvp-caliber players were younger (lebron, wade) or past their prime (shaq and maybe even duncan).

and did you just argue that the pistons played at a faster pace than the 7 seconds or less suns? slin, slin, slin . . .

and to just dismiss defense is baffling to me.

oh, and the championships. baffling.

not saying isiah was heads and shoulders above nash, but to dismiss the possibility is just folly. it's like saying something nuts like curry is better than rose, oh wait . . .

 

[AzStevenCal]

wow, i don't even know where to begin. oh yes i do. do the names, magic, larry, and michael mean anything to you? how about hakeem and malone? isiah had way too much competition for mvp compared to nash. was nash deserving of his mvps? yes. but he fell in a historical sweet spot too where most of the mvp-caliber players were younger (lebron, wade) or past their prime (shaq and maybe even duncan).

and did you just argue that the pistons played at a faster pace than the 7 seconds or less suns? slin, slin, slin . . .

and to just dismiss defense is baffling to me.

oh, and the championships. baffling.

not saying isiah was heads and shoulders above nash, but to dismiss the possibility is just folly. it's like saying something nuts like curry is better than rose, oh wait . . .

Yeah, I'm not an Isiah fan (the opposite, actually) but it's hard to dismiss him as a player. Personally, I'd take Nash at his best over Thomas at his best but it's a close call either way. And if you judge them over the length of their respective careers, Thomas probably takes the edge.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

wow, i don't even know where to begin. oh yes i do. do the names, magic, larry, and michael mean anything to you? how about hakeem and malone? isiah had way too much competition for mvp compared to nash. was nash deserving of his mvps? yes. but he fell in a historical sweet spot too where most of the mvp-caliber players were younger (lebron, wade) or past their prime (shaq and maybe even duncan).

and did you just argue that the pistons played at a faster pace than the 7 seconds or less suns? slin, slin, slin . . .

and to just dismiss defense is baffling to me.

oh, and the championships. baffling.

not saying isiah was heads and shoulders above nash, but to dismiss the possibility is just folly. it's like saying something nuts like curry is better than rose, oh wait . . .

dude man

The Pistons played at A MUCH higher pace. Do you know anything about 80s basketball? Why do I even argue with someone that does not even know basics? Did you even think before posting something this stupid? The pace of the Pistons in 84 was 103.8. The Suns pace in 2006 was 95.8. That is a 8 point difference. Maybe you will understand it better when I tell you that in 2006 the Spurs pace was 88.8. The margin by what the Pistons played faster than your glorious 7 seconds or less Suns was bigger than the difference between the Suns and Spurs.

Did you know that in most years in the 80s there were only 0-3 teams that scored less than 100ppg? Compared to Nashs era where there were 0-3 teams above 100ppg? The 7 seconds or less Suns would have been either the slowest or among the slowest teams in the 80s.

And it is not about Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson. Isiah Thomas was ranked behind his own teammates in MVP voting.

Nobody who has any common sense and understanding of advanced NBA stats, not just raw stats, is going to pick Isiah over Nash. Check out the link I posted for the 47 page thread.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1123731
RealGM's 100 Greatest
4) Magic Johnson
14) Oscar Robertson
23) Walt Frazier
24) Steve Nash
29) Isiah Thomas
31) John Stockton
32) Gary Payton
36) Jason Kidd
44) Bob Cousy
50) Chris Paul
51) Kevin Johnson
75) Nate Archibald
79) Mark Price
83) Chauncey Billups
94) Tim Hardaway

 

[Mulli]

dude man

The Pistons played at A MUCH higher pace. Do you know anything about 80s basketball?

And it is not about Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson. Isiah Thomas was ranked behind his own teammates in MVP voting.

This has no basis in fact whatsoever.

 

[AzStevenCal]

dude man

The Pistons played at A MUCH higher pace. Do you know anything about 80s basketball? Why do I even argue with someone that does not even know basics? Did you even think before posting something this stupid? The pace of the Pistons in 84 was 103.8. The Suns pace in 2006 was 95.8. That is a 8 point difference. Maybe you will understand it better when I tell you that in 2006 the Spurs pace was 88.8. The margin by what the Pistons played faster than your glorious 7 seconds or less Suns was bigger than the difference between the Suns and Spurs.

And it is not about Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson. Isiah Thomas was ranked behind his own teammates in MVP voting.

Even if that's true it's a very small thing to base your case on.

Isiah's NBA credentials:

2 time NBA champion
NBA Finals MVP
11 time NBA All Star
2 time All Star Game MVP
3 time All NBA 1st team
2 time All NBA 2nd team
NBA 50th Anniversary All Time Team

Steve

 

[slinslin]

This has no basis in fact whatsoever.

Huh? It is absolutely fact that the Pistons played at a much higher pace than the Suns.

What do you want to argue about it? Those are facts and you can easily look up that data.

 

[Mulli]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1990.html
Zeke tied with Dumars.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1991.html

Zeke more votes than Dumars

 

[Mulli]

Huh? It is absolutely fact that the Pistons played at a much higher pace than the Suns.

What do you want to argue about it? Those are facts and you can easily look up that data.

I watched it. Just not true.

 

[slinslin]

WTF man

1982 Pistons pace 104.3 2nd in NBA
1983 Pistons pace 105.8 5th in NBA
1984 Pistons pace 103.8 5th in NBA
1985 Pistons pace 105.0 4th in NBA
1986 Pistons pace 104.2 4th in NBA
1987 Pistons pace 101.0 13th in NBA

Do you want me to continue?

The highest pace the Suns team ever reached under Steve Nash was 96.7 one season in 2008.

 

[Mulli]

WTF man

1982 Pistons pace 104.3 2nd in NBA
1983 Pistons pace 105.8 5th in NBA
1984 Pistons pace 103.8 5th in NBA
1985 Pistons pace 105.0 4th in NBA
1986 Pistons pace 104.2 4th in NBA
1987 Pistons pace 101.0 13th in NBA

Do you want me to continue?

The highest pace the Suns team ever reached under Steve Nash was 96.7 one season in 2008.

Continue if you want. Not buying it.

 

[slinslin]

Isiah only 4 times finished in the top 10 in MVP voting. Once 5th, twice 9th and once 8th.

In 1981 the great Kelly Tripucka on his own team finished 11th while Thomas finished 17th.

 

[slinslin]

Continue if you want. Not buying it.

Who cares, obviously you are an ignorant idiot then.

people who actually understand advanced NBA stats know that Isiah is overrated and not even a top 5 PG all time.

when prime Isiah was playing voters considered him to be a borderline all-NBA player who usually didn't make top10 in MVP votings.

when prime Nash was playing he beat KG, Duncan, Kobe, young LeBron, Dirk and past prime Shaq to MVP.

now what the hell changed during those 20 years that MVP caliber player is being compared to borderline all-NBA player ? are you saying Kobe or Duncan wouldn't make top10 in MVP votings in the late 80s ? how about Shaq or Garnett ?

so what really happened is that Isiah was a very good player, but happened to be on a team without a superstar and later he got all the credit for their success, despite not standing out among his teammates. 20 years later people forgot Isiah was losing to guys like Tripucka or Dale Ellis in MVP votings.

Isiah was a very good player but he was nowhere near MVP level at any point in his career. as a matter of fact when Isiah missed a lot of games in 91, Pistons barely regressed at all. meanwhile when Nash wasn't playing Suns collapsed and regressed to being a deep lottery team.

Isiah 1991 (34g) 1.3 to 3.8

Nash 2005-07 (16g) 13.2 to 7.5
Nash 2001 (12g) 6.6 to 5.2
Nash 2009 (8g) 6.3 to 2.5

Isiah should be compared to Deron Williams or Billups. he's not significantly better than either of those guys.

and what's the excuse for being rated lower than Dale Ellis or Fat Lever ??

guys who finished higher than Isiah on MVP votings (among others):

82 - Robert Parish, Gus Williams, George Gervin, Sidney Moncrief, Jack Sikma, Dan Roundfield, Kelly Tripucka, Alex English, Bernard King, Adrian Dantley, Ray Williams
83 - Sidney Moncrief, Alex English, Buck Williams, Artis Gilmore, George Gervin, Jack Sikma, Jeff Ruland, Terry Cummings, Maurice Lucas, Alton Lister
84 - Bernard King, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
85 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Terry Cummings, Bernard King, Sidney Moncrief
86 - Charles Barkley, Sidney Moncrief, Alex English, Dominique Wilkins
87 - Kevin McHale, Charles Barkley, Dominique Wilkins
88 - Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, Fat Lever, John Stockton, Alex English
89 - John Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Tom Chambers, Mark Price, Brad Daugherty, Robert Parish, Mark Eaton, Moses Malone, Chris Mullin, Larry Nance
90 - Tom Chambers, John Stockton, Buck Williams, Clyde Drexler
91 - Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, Terry Porter, John Stockton,

Isiah did not even make all NBA 3rd team in the Pistons championship years but Joe Dumas did.

I think these threads just reveal either

a) a lot of nostalgia for older players (not just Isiah, but Stockton, Payton, Frazier, Kidd, etc.)

or

b) a lot of underrating of Nash

There really isn't anything that Isiah is clearly better than Nash at, and yes, I'm including defense (Isiah played for a great defensive team, so whatever weaknesses he had were covered up). Nash is better as a scorer, better as a playmaker, runs a more efficient offense, has more impact by every metric, etc.

Nash is a legitimate franchise level player, a guy who at his peak has true MVP-level impact.

Isiah wasn't on that level.

I dunno, the fact that Isiah wasn't taken seriously as an MVP candidate even when his team was the best in the league seems to be a pretty good indicator of how contemporary observers saw him. Let's remember that team success has pretty much always meant drastic overrating of players as MVP candidate. Unseld won an MVP, Jermaine O'Neal finished 3rd in MVP voting. Isiah couldn't even get that going for himself.

siah practically got carried in Detroit's first championship. How do people try to use this as an argument for him?

Wills his team in the playoffs with his .481 TS?

He played well during their 2nd championship but the first clearly shows that it had way more to do with Detroit being very good all around than Isiah being some superstar.

If Nash was 18.2/4.3/8.3 on .481 TS during a championship run people would say the will of god carried him to the finals, and that the other phoenix players are for sure HoFers that completed a nearly impossible task being torn down by the plague that is steve nash.

Isiah does it? Well he clearly willed his team to victory!

 

[Mulli]

Who cares, obviously you are an ignorant idiot then.

You asked.

 

[Mulli]

Even if that's true it's a very small thing to base your case on.

Isiah's NBA credentials:

2 time NBA champion
NBA Finals MVP
11 time NBA All Star
2 time All Star Game MVP
3 time All NBA 1st team
2 time All NBA 2nd team
NBA 50th Anniversary All Time Team

Steve

These are good enough for me. And I hate Zeke. I suspect people hating Zeke as a person contributed to his low MVP voting.

 

[AzStevenCal]

These are good enough for me. And I hate Zeke. I suspect people hating Zeke as a person contributed to his low MVP voting.

I agree about hating him and it impacting his MVP votes. I always thought he was overrated but that was just when I had to hear people put him on Magic's level. He isn't in the running for greatest PG ever but he has to be in the argument for top 5 all time.

Steve

 

[Mulli]

I agree about hating him and it impacting his MVP votes. I always thought he was overrated but that was just when I had to hear people put him on Magic's level. He isn't in the running for greatest PG ever but he has to be in the argument for top 5 all time.

Steve

Yep. Agree.

 

[slinslin]

Allen Iverson was much more unlikeable and it did not hurt his MVP case. It also did not hurt other players who regularly finished above Thomas even when the Pistsons had the best record in the league Thomas was not considered a MVP candidate.

Isiah Thomas NEVER even got close to winning a MVP.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html

In his championship years he was BAD in the playoffs and his own teammate made all-nba teams above him at the same position. The great Dale Ellis made all NBA teams over him those years.

Nash just beats Thomas, beats him in basically any metric, beats him in impact, beats him in awards (more all-nba teams, MVPs..), beats him in recognition..

It's funny because Isiah Thomas supporters always return to the horrible flawed argument "but he has 2 rings" mimimi

 

[AzStevenCal]

Allen Iverson was much more unlikeable and it did not hurt his MVP case. It also did not hurt other players who regularly finished above Thomas even when the Pistsons had the best record in the league Thomas was not considered a MVP candidate.

Isiah Thomas NEVER even got close to winning a MVP.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html

In his championship years he was BAD in the playoffs and his own teammate made all-nba teams above him at the same position. The great Dale Ellis made all NBA teams over him those years.

Nash just beats Thomas, beats him in basically any metric, beats him in impact, beats him in awards (more all-nba teams, MVPs..), beats him in recognition..

It's funny because Isiah Thomas supporters always return to the horrible flawed argument "but he has 2 rings" mimimi

I had been following the NBA for quite awhile before Thomas came on the scene. We didn't have anywhere near the exposure to the league as we do today but I think you're way off on this one. Iverson had an incredible number of fans in his corner. I hated pretty much everything about the guy and I know I wasn't alone in that but there's a reason that the NBA catered to AI. They shoved him and VC down our throats every chance they could because that's what their research told them we wanted, Vince and Allan.

If Isiah had anywhere near the kind of support that Allan had he would have fared much better in the MVP voting. Bird, Magic, Michael and Moses would have insured he never won one but he would have shown better.

Steve