Suns Off Season Changes for 2025-26

[Phrazbit]

He was impressive, but I'll always take his young-star-at-forward Suns predecessor, Antonio McDyess, over him. I trust *his* defense, and he was no Amare Stoudemire but no slouch in scoring.

As for the prospect of a defensive coach teaching Stoudemire to play defense: a question occurs that I think I had thought of before. Why did he never absorb good defense from his equally athletic frontcourt mate, Shawn Marion? Since I'm no fanboy of Shawn Marion, I have no problem entertaining the idea that Marion was over-rated; but to claim Marion wasn't a good defender is difficult to believe.

Bird was a very good defender. Nash didn't expel energy on defense most games. He also saw the game differently than others so he wasn't good at reading players and reacting. It's much more than being physically limited, which he was to some degree but not across the board. He was quick and had great acceleration also. He couldn't have done what he did offensively if he was as limited as some like to claim when looking back.

I love Nash, he's a top 3 Sun all time and I believe that's indisputable but he was an awful defender and a fair portion of that was his own fault. Defense isn't taught by teammates. It's a coaching thing. Sometimes a veteran player can help a young guy out, as we saw Chris Paul do here with many of the younger guys, but ultimately that doesn't fall on his shoulders. When two guys are closer in age also, like Stoudemire and Marion, it's not the same thing at all as Marion wasn't exactly a star when Amare came into his own. Stat leapfrogged Marion in the pecking order here.

Exactly, Bird was actually a very very good defender.

And Shawn Marion was the furthest thing from overrated, statistically, he is one of the best players in NBA history to not be in the hall of fame. If anything he is wildly underrated. Dude was a switch blade on defense, capable of very effectively guarding anything but a center, while also grabbing double digit rebounds AND scoring around 20 points per game without any plays being called for him, the majority of his points coming through transition hustle, slashing or offensive rebounds.

Now, with the way impact is more appreciated and calculated, Marion would be a far more acclaimed player. There isn't a player in the modern NBA that compares to him. Siakam maybe, but he was a much better player than Siakam.

 

[angel_ofthe_south]

And Shawn Marion was the furthest thing from overrated, statistically, he is one of the best players in NBA history to not be in the hall of fame. If anything he is wildly underrated.

Yeah, well, I said I entertain that idea, not that I agree with it; and it came to me from someone else here, I forget whom. Because I was basically offended by Marion's egotism and childishness in whining that he didn't get no respect (nonsense!), I am no fanboy of his; and am quite willing to consider the idea that he was overrated. People should have nicknamed him Rodney Dangerfield.

Also the idea that Amare Stoudemire's lousy defense is mostly Mike D'Antoni's fault. Because defense is largely about effort, I still consider a man responsible for his own defense or lack thereof; but since I can't stand Mike D'Antoni, and consider him a snake-oil salesman who built a poorly structured team, I am cheerfully prepared to consider that I should blame D'Antoni.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah, well, I said I entertain that idea, not that I agree with it; and it came to me from someone else here, I forget whom. Because I was basically offended by Marion's egotism and childishness in whining that he didn't get no respect (nonsense!), I am no fanboy of his; and am quite willing to consider the idea that he was overrated. People should have nicknamed him Rodney Dangerfield.

Also the idea that Amare Stoudemire's lousy defense is mostly Mike D'Antoni's fault. Because defense is largely about effort, I still consider a man responsible for his own defense or lack thereof; but since I can't stand Mike D'Antoni, and consider him a snake-oil salesman who built a poorly structured team, I am cheerfully prepared to consider that I should blame D'Antoni.

Not everyone agrees with how things went down but I see it far differently. Shawn was child-like and not very bright but he was the perfect soldier, the perfect teammate and a great player for us.

Some fans got it into their heads that Marion didn't get the respect he deserved and the next thing you know, every single time he'd get interviewed he'd be asked some form of that question (do you feel disrespected?). It's quite similar to what happened with Dice his first time here where the media kept pushing the narrative that Ainge was disrespecting him by not playing him enough minutes. Get told over and again that you're being mistreated and you're going to start feeling that way too and it soured both Marion and Antonio.

As for Amare (despite Dantoni eschewing defense), Stat played for a lot of coaches and I'm pretty sure he was taught a lot more defense than he let on. He certainly came up big for us in clutch moments with a block here or a steal there. But ESPN didn't pay much attention to solid defense, they showed thunderous slams, high flying blocks and "game faces" and Amare, man-child that he was, wanted the glory only ESPN attention could bring. So he focused on the glamorous plays that would get him Sportscenter time and avoided the dirty work.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think you're underrating him a little but we'll see.

Agreed. This is a dude that took Duke team to a final four as a frosh and undisputed leader of the team. He’s not even fully physically matured yet. And no fear of taking the final shot. I do t know what he’s going to be, but I’m fairly confident he’s got star written in him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Giving up Dunn in that trade would be revolting, we've given up far too much in trades the last few years, trade after trade full of obvious imbalance.

But if a trade for flag hands on Dunn... I would make that trade. I think he is a bonafied superstar in the making.

I also don't think the Mavs will trade that pick unless it's for like Jokic or Giannis.

Agree with all this. Of course I’d love to have Dunn develop alongside Flagg. But if he’s the clincher between the deal happening or not I throw him in.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Lonzo Ball Makes Wild Kevin Durant Trade Prediction

The Phoenix Suns are in a tough spot this offseason with a lot of money tied up between their 'big three' of Kevin Durant, Devin Booker, and Bradley Beal. Next

www.si.com

Pass

 

[AzStevenCal]

Agree with all this. Of course I’d love to have Dunn develop alongside Flagg. But if he’s the clincher between the deal happening or not I throw him in.

I wouldn't do it but not because of Flagg or even Dunn though I'd regret losing him. I hate seeing everything through such a negative prism but with this franchise, I have no choice. Having him on the roster would be nice but it wouldn't fix our problems and we're likely to be so bad during his rookie contract that I have no confidence we'd be able to keep him beyond that.

IMO, if we were able to make that trade (highly doubtful) it should be to try and turn him into an even bigger return rather than expecting him to be a major part of our core. Unless we can trade all our veterans and get back enough draft picks to possibly rebuild over a few years rather than what we're likely facing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He was impressive, but I'll always take his young-star-at-forward Suns predecessor, Antonio McDyess, over him. I trust *his* defense, and he was no Amare Stoudemire but no slouch in scoring.

As for the prospect of a defensive coach teaching Stoudemire to play defense: a question occurs that I think I had thought of before. Why did he never absorb good defense from his equally athletic frontcourt mate, Shawn Marion? Since I'm no fanboy of Shawn Marion, I have no problem entertaining the idea that Marion was over-rated; but to claim Marion wasn't a good defender is difficult to believe.

If I recall correctly mcdyess wasn’t the he sharpest tool in the box. He was never going to be a transcendent player. Amare was if he hadn’t hurt his knee.

Also, coaches teach, fellow players don’t. At least not something like defense. And I don’t really see Marion as the teacher type. I think Marion’s defense was based on insane athleticism and length and effort. You can teach that stuff.

Finally, who has said Marion wasn’t a good defender?!!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I wouldn't do it but not because of Flagg or even Dunn though I'd regret losing him. I hate seeing everything through such a negative prism but with this franchise, I have no choice. Having him on the roster would be nice but it wouldn't fix our problems and we're likely to be so bad during his rookie contract that I have no confidence we'd be able to keep him beyond that.

IMO, if we were able to make that trade (highly doubtful) it should be to try and turn him into an even bigger return rather than expecting him to be a major part of our core. Unless we can trade all our veterans and get back enough draft picks to possibly rebuild over a few years rather than what we're likely facing.

This would 100% be my strategy. Do the Flagg deal. Then turn gafford, Washington, and klay into whatever picks are possible. Turn kd into Jalen green or Reed shepherd and one of our picks and another Houston pick or two and send Allen and oneal somewhere for a pick each.

You’re left with:

Flagg
Green
Sheoherd
5-6 new first round oicks
Beal’s awful contract
Fairly good cap space and a billionaire owner.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This would 100% be my strategy. Do the Flagg deal. Then turn gafford, Washington, and klay into whatever picks are possible. Turn kd into Jalen green or Reed shepherd and one of our picks and another Houston pick or two and send Allen and oneal somewhere for a pick each.

You’re left with:

Flagg
Green
Sheoherd
5-6 new first round oicks
Beal’s awful contract
Fairly good cap space and a billionaire owner.

It works for me, now we just have to see if it will work for this front office and our possible trade partners.

 

[angel_ofthe_south]

Finally, who has said Marion wasn’t a good defender?!!

Not me--I said I don't believe it. To my knowledge, nobody said that--that Marion was not a good defender. Someone said, when I first posted in this forum three or four years ago, that Marion was "overrated." I would have to look in my oldest threads to remember who said it.

Edit: I just did look it up. Cheesebeef and Hoop Head were the ones saying Marion was over-rated. https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/search/281875/?q=shawn+marion+overrated&o=relevance Specifically, they opined that Marion's defense is over-rated. (Hmm, I thought they said he was "over-rated" as an overall player, but this says I remembered wrong.) I thought it was an interesting idea, and was willing to consider it. I had apparently started it by pondering who's the better defender, Marion or Mikal Bridges. (Most or all commenters said Bridges.)

Here is the possible anecdotal evidence supporting their argument to me: if Marion was a great defender, why did the SSOL Suns want Raja Bell, not the bigger and stronger Marion, to guard Kobe Bryant?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Not me--I said I don't believe it. To my knowledge, nobody said that--that Marion was not a good defender. Someone said, when I first posted in this forum three or four years ago, that Marion was "overrated." I would have to look in my oldest threads to remember who said it.

Edit: I just did look it up. Cheesebeef and Hoop Head were the ones saying Marion was over-rated. https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/search/281875/?q=shawn+marion+overrated&o=relevance Specifically, they opined that Marion's defense is over-rated. (Hmm, I thought they said he was "over-rated" as an overall player, but this says I remembered wrong.) I thought it was an interesting idea, and was willing to consider it. I had apparently started it by pondering who's the better defender, Marion or Mikal Bridges. (Most or all commenters said Bridges.)

Here is the possible anecdotal evidence supporting their argument to me: if Marion was a great defender, why did the SSOL Suns want Raja Bell, not the bigger and stronger Marion, to guard Kobe Bryant?

Mikal is an excellent help defender but not elite when it comes to shutting down a player. He's one of the best recovery defenders I've ever seen but quick players routinely get that first step on him and he's slight of build so he can be manhandled too. Marion was often tasked with guarding the other team's best player no matter the position. He wasn't really a shut down defender either but he made them work for it. Unfortunately the Lakers presented matchup problems for us given they had a lot of size, speed and strength.

Anyway, I'd give the edge to Shawn on defense especially since he was such a strong rebounder for his position.

 

[GatorAZ]

Bird was a very good defender. Nash didn't expel energy on defense most games. He also saw the game differently than others so he wasn't good at reading players and reacting. It's much more than being physically limited, which he was to some degree but not across the board. He was quick and had great acceleration also. He couldn't have done what he did offensively if he was as limited as some like to claim when looking back.

I love Nash, he's a top 3 Sun all time and I believe that's indisputable but he was an awful defender and a fair portion of that was his own fault. Defense isn't taught by teammates. It's a coaching thing. Sometimes a veteran player can help a young guy out, as we saw Chris Paul do here with many of the younger guys, but ultimately that doesn't fall on his shoulders. When two guys are closer in age also, like Stoudemire and Marion, it's not the same thing at all as Marion wasn't exactly a star when Amare came into his own. Stat leapfrogged Marion in the pecking order here.

In the 80’s you could be physical plus there was no spacing. Bird would be the guy teams would hunt if he came around 30 years later. Nash didn’t have the rim protection that Tony Parker had his entire career and he wasn’t dirty like Stockton. He did all he could on D given his limitations.

 

[Hoop Head]

Not me--I said I don't believe it. To my knowledge, nobody said that--that Marion was not a good defender. Someone said, when I first posted in this forum three or four years ago, that Marion was "overrated." I would have to look in my oldest threads to remember who said it.

Edit: I just did look it up. Cheesebeef and Hoop Head were the ones saying Marion was over-rated. https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/search/281875/?q=shawn+marion+overrated&o=relevance Specifically, they opined that Marion's defense is over-rated. (Hmm, I thought they said he was "over-rated" as an overall player, but this says I remembered wrong.) I thought it was an interesting idea, and was willing to consider it. I had apparently started it by pondering who's the better defender, Marion or Mikal Bridges. (Most or all commenters said Bridges.)

Here is the possible anecdotal evidence supporting their argument to me: if Marion was a great defender, why did the SSOL Suns want Raja Bell, not the bigger and stronger Marion, to guard Kobe Bryant?

I'll stand by that and expand some. I don't see Marion in the same class of defender as a Kawhi Leonard elite lock down defender. He was good but he looked better than he was here in Phoenix because he was next to 3-4 poor defenders regularly. I recall talk of Marion deserving All Defensive 1st team honors or to be in the DPOY discussion, which I always disagree with. I can't recall a game we won because Marion locked someone down. That isn't to say his defense wasn't impactful but there's a reason he didn't receive accolades elsewhere either for his defense, he wasn't exceptional. Good but not great. Definitely not in an All Time Defensive Suns team. Maybe off the bench for his versatility but not a starter and his versatility is what made him valuable more than his actual stopping ability.

 

[Mainstreet]

It's still hard to comprehend how quickly new ownership destroyed the team, past, present and future.

It's left fans little to talk about except the good old days and rebuilding a team that was young and good only a few years back.

I'm waiting to see if the Suns new direction is something to genuinely get excited about. At this point, I want more than words.

The new ownership has been a complete downer and the hire of an inexperienced NBA GM didn't help.

Now, we are awaiting to see who the Suns hire as head coach. More and more, they look like a new toy that has been tossed aside.

 

[Hoop Head]

It's still hard to comprehend how quickly new ownership destroyed the team, past, present and future.

It's left fans little to talk about except the good old days and rebuilding a team that was young and good only a few years back.

I'm waiting to see if the Suns new direction is something to genuinely get excited about. At this point, I want more than words.

The new ownership has been a complete downer and the hire of an inexperienced NBA GM didn't help.

Now, we are waiting to see who the Suns hire as head coach. More and more, they look like a new toy that has been tossed aside.

Cross your fingers, say a prayer, sacrifice a small animal, or burn some sage to keep Fizdale out of that Head Coach position so there's a glimmer of change to cling to. Fizdale would signify they're running it back, again, with minimal changes outside of the mid 3.

 

[Mainstreet]

Cross your fingers, say a prayer, sacrifice a small animal, or burn some sage to keep Fizdale out of that Head Coach position so there's a glimmer of change to cling to. Fizdale would signify they're running it back, again, with minimal changes outside of the mid 3.

I agree, hiring Fizdale as head coach would be a, “been there done that” type of move.

That's why I wanted the Suns to consider an interim head coach and get that out of their system.

 

[angel_ofthe_south]

Cross your fingers, say a prayer, sacrifice a small animal, or burn some sage to keep Fizdale out of that Head Coach position so there's a glimmer of change to cling to. Fizdale would signify they're running it back, again, with minimal changes outside of the mid 3.

Tell me more about David Fizdale. He is nothing but a name to me in assistant coaching. I think he had an unsuccessful head coaching stint somewhere. Why does nobody like him? because I've heard this opinion on more than one forum.

 

[Hoop Head]

Tell me more about David Fizdale. He is nothing but a name to me in assistant coaching. I think he had an unsuccessful head coaching stint somewhere. Why does nobody like him? because I've heard this opinion on more than one forum.

Fizdale was an assistant under Vogel and Budenholzer. He was mediocre in his previous stint in Memphis and New York in the mid 2010's. He would represent more of the same, to me. He's very average at his best, definitely not an untapped mind waiting for an opportunity. He's one of those guys who could be a good assistant but I believe that's his ceiling. He screams interim. He flamed out of Memphis after a disappointing season when the team mistakenly fired their coach after a bad playoff loss, Fizdale performed a little worse, and then started his second poorly and was canned 1/4 of the way through it. He was then hired by the Knicks and did nothing. He was actually the coach who took over after Hornacek was fired in New York, Horny won 29 games and that team was flawed but Fizdale won 17. Again, worse results compared to the guy he took over for. At least in Memphis they had aging stars, it was the end of Marc Gasol's run there. New York showed he was in over his head.

Stylistically it's hard to pin him down since he's had no success. He basically bends to the will of his players rather than a strict system guy, like Vogel and Bud were. I'd expect we'd see more talk of defense but without Vogel's schemes it wouldn't get near that and less structured offense as well even compared to Budenholzer. Fizdale would likely be instructed to coach Vogel's D and Bud's O's and it might fool a few but no one who has paid attention.

 

[Cheesebeef]

A double whammy of Gregory/Fizdale will say one thing loud and clear to me… no one worth a sliver of a damn wants to touch this franchise and Ishbia future outlook for what he wants next.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Now Hiring:

Job Title: Head Coach Phoenix Suns
Job Length: 3-4 yrs but probably 1 year
Location: Sponsorless Arena
Job Requirements: Michigan State
Drug Test: No
NDA: Yes
Draft Picks: No
Devin Booker: Yes
Kevin Durant: No
Bradley Beal: Yes
Respected GM: No
Guaranteed Contract: Yes
Complete Control: No

 

[angel_ofthe_south]

Could it be that the four or so "finalist" candidates will ultimately be just decoys for someone else, a coach whom the FO doesn't know yet because they might hire that coach impulsively?

This is what I am thinking. If the Knicks lose their conference final, what if the Knicks FO gets mad and fires Tom Thibodeau unfairly, as HH said the Grizzlies fired their coach before Fizdale unfairly? I would grab Thibodeau in a second if he would take this job. I concede that he probably wouldn't. Perhaps if he likes a challenge.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Could it be that the four or so "finalist" candidates will ultimately be just decoys for someone else, a coach whom the FO doesn't know yet because they might hire that coach impulsively?

This is what I am thinking. If the Knicks lose their conference final, what if the Knicks FO gets mad and fires Tom Thibodeau unfairly, as HH said the Grizzlies fired their coach before Fizdale unfairly? I would grab Thibodeau in a second if he would take this job. I concede that he probably wouldn't. Perhaps if he likes a challenge.

if we trade beal back to the wizards - trade kd for flagg - get under both aprons - buy all our picks back from houston - kidnap one of the knick's gm's relatives and force him to fire thibodeau - then maybe

 

[JerkFace]

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[Cheesebeef]

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I think I’d be intrigued by either of these guys. Don’t know enough to necessarily be excited, but Quinn comes from a great program and Dallas seems to be good at developing young guys and playing a bit above talent.