Suns @ Mavericks Sunday game thread 3-5-2023

clyde2tw

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Doncic is a great NBA player no doubt. On the Suns team, only Okogie, Wainright, KD can properly contain him with agility, weight or height. Craig, Book, Bridges earlier get abused regularly. Okogie can keep his body in front of Luka properly, very annoying. In the overturned call, Luka first pushed Okogie away with his off arm, which is a faul; Okogie quickly came back to his old position, the same time Luka jumped forward for the shot. Isolated on the final body contact, Refs had a case of giving slight favor to the offensive player to call blocking. But in combination with the previous pushaway, Okogie was only regain his legal position illegally taken away by Luka moment earlier. On the final missed layup by Luka, I bet Okogie was on his mind making him not enough focused on finishing. :)
 

Hoop Head

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Okogie reminds me of a more locked in Raja Bell on defense. Raja was great but he didn't have the motor Okogie does. Okogie defends everyone like Raja was facing Kobe, minus the clothesline. If he could become half the shooter Raja was then he's a keeper. I don't mind off games offensively for him like against Dallas because that will keep our ability to resign him high.
 

AzStevenCal

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Okogie reminds me of a more locked in Raja Bell on defense. Raja was great but he didn't have the motor Okogie does. Okogie defends everyone like Raja was facing Kobe, minus the clothesline. If he could become half the shooter Raja was then he's a keeper. I don't mind off games offensively for him like against Dallas because that will keep our ability to resign him high.
Back then they were still allowed to grab and redirect perimeter players, I'm not so sure Raja Bell would be much of a defender in today's game. And I agree, at 24 and still learning, Okogie is already the better defender. My concern though is that he seems to become reluctant to shoot after he misses a couple.
 

Dr. Jones

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I would cry some insane tears of joy if Josh clotheslined Luka into next week just one time.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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Back then they were still allowed to grab and redirect perimeter players, I'm not so sure Raja Bell would be much of a defender in today's game. And I agree, at 24 and still learning, Okogie is already the better defender. My concern though is that he seems to become reluctant to shoot after he misses a couple.
2004 was when they started implementing the freedom of movement rules. Of course they were still more lenient on defenders back then, but still wasn't as big a difference as say the 80s or 90s.
 

Joe Mama

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I respect that. And as a mavs fan I don’t dislike Booker. If Booker played for the mavs I would love rooting for him. I think he is a great player and is a passionate guy as is chris paul. I think we are long past the days of ref manipulation. I’m not going to try to defend doncic there. IMO the game is not as physical as it used to be and a player like doncic uses his physicality and pace to his advantage. As a defense, if you don’t body him and give him space, he will do whatever he wants with the skill that he has to both score and pass. Every since the clippers started to defend luka that way in the playoffs a couple of years back, most teams defend Luka in a very physical manner which in my opinion puts the referees in a difficult position. Of corse Luka rarely lets it go unnoticed and that doesn’t help the refs either.
I'm sorry. This is just not accurate. Luka Dončić is not guarded any more physically than any other player who is a good scorer. He is the one initiating the contact, and it's not even like he's attempting to disguise it. He Rams in the people and then fully extend his arm to shove them a way to create space and even more agree just leave he just dropped his shoulder and keeps ramming through defenders sat there in good position until either he is wide-open to shoot or he's done it all the way to the basket for a layup. Even worse at least some of the time the officials reward him with defensive fouls. I don't think anyone here is complaining about questionable ones.

I could at least understand the referee not making the call on that last one that ended up with the scuffle. If that was poker I would have been saying that we got away with one, but at least I understood not making that call. We are complaining about the blatant offensive fouls he and woods were committing repeatedly. He's the small forward version of Shaquille O'Neal, but at least I felt like shaq was also frequently fouled without getting whistles.

Don't get me wrong. This is kind of like Chris Paul. That guy used to drive me crazy with his shenanigans, but I was happy as hell when we traded for him. Every time I see Luka Dončić I I am sad that we passed on him for DA… easily the most frustrating Phoenix Suns player I've ever watched.

And to be clear Luka Dončić isn't the only player to do this. I thought Booker got away with something similar right under the basket I think it was in the third quarter. The difference is that that was on a fast break and part of the action of the basket not a postop where it's just so obvious.

One more thing. Just about every player carries the ball. Dončić takes it to a whole other level. The guy is an incredibly gifted player. He doesn't need and he certainly doesn't deserve the help from the officials… Not with the way he ******* at them incessantly.

And that's all I have to say about that.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Not only that but the blatant push offs. Some of those were not even subtle. I swear it seems like the more Luka cries the more the refs don't want to hear it and just gives him every call imaginable while Booker ends up on his back and nothing.
Yeah it’s the chicken wings that bother me. They’re really blatant.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Okogie reminds me of a more locked in Raja Bell on defense. Raja was great but he didn't have the motor Okogie does. Okogie defends everyone like Raja was facing Kobe, minus the clothesline. If he could become half the shooter Raja was then he's a keeper. I don't mind off games offensively for him like against Dallas because that will keep our ability to resign him high.
Okogie is a superior athlete to raja. I think that’s the primary difference defensively. Wish okogie could shoot the trey like raja. He’d be a deadly 3 and D guy.
 

Lorenzo

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I'm sorry. This is just not accurate. Luka Dončić is not guarded any more physically than any other player who is a good scorer. He is the one initiating the contact, and it's not even like he's attempting to disguise it. He Rams in the people and then fully extend his arm to shove them a way to create space and even more agree just leave he just dropped his shoulder and keeps ramming through defenders sat there in good position until either he is wide-open to shoot or he's done it all the way to the basket for a layup. Even worse at least some of the time the officials reward him with defensive fouls. I don't think anyone here is complaining about questionable ones.

I could at least understand the referee not making the call on that last one that ended up with the scuffle. If that was poker I would have been saying that we got away with one, but at least I understood not making that call. We are complaining about the blatant offensive fouls he and woods were committing repeatedly. He's the small forward version of Shaquille O'Neal, but at least I felt like shaq was also frequently fouled without getting whistles.

Don't get me wrong. This is kind of like Chris Paul. That guy used to drive me crazy with his shenanigans, but I was happy as hell when we traded for him. Every time I see Luka Dončić I I am sad that we passed on him for DA… easily the most frustrating Phoenix Suns player I've ever watched.

And to be clear Luka Dončić isn't the only player to do this. I thought Booker got away with something similar right under the basket I think it was in the third quarter. The difference is that that was on a fast break and part of the action of the basket not a postop where it's just so obvious.

One more thing. Just about every player carries the ball. Dončić takes it to a whole other level. The guy is an incredibly gifted player. He doesn't need and he certainly doesn't deserve the help from the officials… Not with the way he ******* at them incessantly.

And that's all I have to say about that.
I’m talking about luka being blanketed full court press by a lot of teams now because they want to wear him down and take his space away. Often he was getting doubled in games as well. And yes other good ball handlers get defended this way as well. In half court setups when he’s posting up and using his body he initiates contact. As you said every good player gets defended that way, but also every good player also uses their body to their advantage. Dirk used to drive his shoulder into players and fade away, it rarely drew complaints from anyone, but that could be called a foul if a smaller defender flopped. You mentioned shaq. I think that is an interesting comparison. Shaq used to abuse people and get away with it. I always found it funny that shaq would get touch fouls to go his way. In 2006 Jerry stackhouse got suspended for tackling shaq from behind to stop a break away. In the same series shaq elbowed stackhouse in the face and broke his nose and it wasn’t even called a foul. I think refs miss calls both ways and good players always get favorable calls. I will say that I saw some replays and it did look like Luka was pushing off with his arm on some of those plays.
 
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Phrazbit

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Okogie is a superior athlete to raja. I think that’s the primary difference defensively. Wish okogie could shoot the trey like raja. He’d be a deadly 3 and D guy.

Raja also had the ability to get under dude's skin. He was the a-hole we lack... maybe Booker, in terms of trash talking will be that guy.

I loved when Raja was jawing at Sam Cassell in the 2nd round, as Sam was bringing the ball up, and Sam got so wrapped up in jawing back that he took a huge 10 second violation.

Guy was a blast to have on your team.
 

Joe Mama

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I’m talking about luka being blanketed full court press by a lot of teams now because they want to wear him down and take his space away. Often he was getting doubled in games as well. And yes other good ball handlers get defended this way as well. In half court setups when he’s posting up and using his body he initiates contact. As you said every good player gets defended that way, but also every good player also uses their body to their advantage. Dirk used to drive his shoulder into players and fade away, it rarely drew complaints from anyone, but that could be called a foul if a smaller defender flopped. You mentioned shaq. I think that is an interesting comparison. Shaq used to abuse people and get away with it. I always found it funny that shaq would get touch fouls to go his way. In 2006 Jerry stackhouse got suspended for tackling shaq from behind to stop a break away. In the same series shaq elbowed stackhouse in the face and broke his nose and it wasn’t even called a foul. I think refs miss calls both ways and good players always get favorable calls. I will say that I saw some replays and it did look like Luka was pushing off with his arm on some of those plays.
Yeah to be clear I thought there were some bad calls that went against both teams. That kind of stuff is going to go your way some games and go the other teams way others. In that particular game Sunday I thought that kind of stuff was about even. The pushing off I thought went uncalled a few times where it was pretty obvious but again not going to complain too much about that. Booker doesn't do it as much anymore, but he used to get away With that a lot. And in fairness I complained about Doncic carrying the ball. Back when he was with the Phoenix Suns I thought Steve Nash did that all game long Quite blatantly and it gave him a huge advantage getting around people.

There are just a few areas where I think the officials and the league have it wrong. 1 of them happens to be Doncic's go to post move. It's an easy call… I'm not asking the officials to do anything difficult here. Everybody and their mom can see when it's happening. It's not a basketball move. If you're going to post up do it legally. Back The defender down as you work left and right until you have them off balance and make your move. That's legal.

Being an official in any sport much less the NBA has got to be super difficult. I really don't have a problem with bad calls. Stuff that bothers me is like this where I think certain parts of the game are officiated incorrectly overall. Add to this list off ball defenders drawing charges. I would just get rid of that altogether or at least I wouldn't call it Unless it was very obvious. The carrying should be pretty easy to call and it gives the offensive player too much of an advantage. Clean that up. Lastly I don't like when certain players or teams with a reputation for "physical defense" are praised and officiated differently. When I hear physical defense I think that teams going to Foul a lot and the referees aren't going to call it. It's how we ended up with the wrestling matches of the late nineties and early 2000's. That was a lot of fun.

Anyhow, that was a great game, especially because the Phoenix Suns won it. It could have gone either way, but somehow you listened to the talking heads yesterday/today you would think they took it by double digits. Josh O had a rough day shooting from the corner. I know what the reality is, but I hope he returns to form from the previous 4 or 5 games and doesn't let Sunday's poor shooting performance get into his head.

Joe
 

Germz249

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Lets move on to the next.. Kyrie was just testing out the next team he is going to play for. Can’t believe there are rumors about Phoenix being a next spot for him to land.
 

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