Suns @ Magic 12-26-18

[Proximo]

I see no advantage to passing on his option(s) unless he's a disruptive force in the locker room.

It's 8 million dollars - the question is can that money be spent on another player that is more useful to the team.

Actually the decision will probably have to be made this offseason so the salary can be used towards a free agent for next season.

Also another huge consideration is where we end up drafting. If for instance we get the second pick, and take RJ Barrett - at that point I would definitely look to trade him if possible.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It's 8 million dollars - the question is can that money be spent on another player that is more useful to the team.

Actually the decision will probably have to be made this offseason so the salary can be used towards a free agent for next season.

Also another huge consideration is where we end up drafting. If for instance we get the second pick, and take RJ Barrett - at that point I would definitely look to trade him if possible.

Absolutely not! What is with the instant gratification that people want in today's NBA? I would just like to remind you that you would have passed on Jimmy Butler's and Paul George's options in their 2nd season as well based on their play at that point in their career. Give the man some time to develop his game. His biggest issues right now are tied to decision making and those things can be worked out with physical and mental reps in practice.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's 8 million dollars - the question is can that money be spent on another player that is more useful to the team.

Actually the decision will probably have to be made this offseason so the salary can be used towards a free agent for next season.

Also another huge consideration is where we end up drafting. If for instance we get the second pick, and take RJ Barrett - at that point I would definitely look to trade him if possible.

No, I don't think it's that simple. JJ has a chance to become a difference maker and we don't need 8 million dollars badly enough to give up on someone this early in his career IMO. And even if he never becomes the player we hope he'll be, it seems unlikely that he won't at least move into the positive value column for trade purposes down the road. Ignore his option and that's it, his value is gone forever for this organization no matter what he becomes that next year.

 

[95pro]

The downside on keeping a player long term ie extending their contract, is that the suns don't have a good track record of developing draft picks.

 

[95pro]

Does anyone notice Oubre doing things to other players that will probably get on their nerves? Just little things, I forget one game where he was grabbing a player by the bicep. Then I think it was last night, an opponent went down and he stepped over them or something. I would hate that kind of a guy on another team but you always love it when he's on your team. He's like another Raja Bell on the team.

 

[Sunburn]

The downside on keeping a player long term ie extending their contract, is that the suns don't have a good track record of developing draft picks.

Igor's specialty is player development.

 

[Sunburn]

Does anyone notice Oubre doing things to other players that will probably get on their nerves? Just little things, I forget one game where he was grabbing a player by the bicep. Then I think it was last night, an opponent went down and he stepped over them or something. I would hate that kind of a guy on another team but you always love it when he's on your team. He's like another Raja Bell on the team.

Haha love it.

 

[Proximo]

Absolutely not! What is with the instant gratification that people want in today's NBA? I would just like to remind you that you would have passed on Jimmy Butler's and Paul George's options in their 2nd season as well based on their play at that point in their career. Give the man some time to develop his game. His biggest issues right now are tied to decision making and those things can be worked out with physical and mental reps in practice.

Paul George was way better than Jackson in his second year - he was already shooting .385 from 3 scoring 12 points per game with a VORP of 2.9.

Butler was better also, and he was a heck of a lot cheaper to pick up the option on being the 30th pick in the draft.

Look historically it is very rare for a player to vastly improve after 2 sub par seasons. Odds are strong Jackson never gets better than being a mediocre bench player.

Everyone should be honest at this point that he is not the player we hoped he would be, and most likely never will be.

I will say this - in just 3 or 4 games of Oubre, I think most people would agree he should be kept over Jackson - and that may well be the decision that has to be made.

 

[95pro]

I've said before that JJ is Goodwin 2.0 but with a better motor and D.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Paul George was way better than Jackson in his second year - he was already shooting .385 from 3 scoring 12 points per game with a VORP of 2.9.

Butler was better also, and he was a heck of a lot cheaper to pick up the option on being the 30th pick in the draft.

Look historically it is very rare for a player to vastly improve after 2 sub par seasons. Odds are strong Jackson never gets better than being a mediocre bench player.

Everyone should be honest at this point that he is not the player we hoped he would be, and most likely never will be.

I will say this - in just 3 or 4 games of Oubre, I think most people would agree he should be kept over Jackson - and that may well be the decision that has to be made.

Jackson is +47 over our last 7 games. We are 5 and 2 over our last 7 games. He's shown many times that he can positively impact this team. So, with Jackson, unlike so many failures before him, it's not really about teaching him how to do good things, it's about stopping him from doing bad things. And remember, Oubre is in his 4th season, Jackson just his second. Oubre's first 2 seasons weren't appreciably better than what we've seen from Josh so far. And we've had far too few potential 2 way players through the years to give up on JJ anytime soon, IMO.

 

[Mainstreet]

Paul George was way better than Jackson in his second year - he was already shooting .385 from 3 scoring 12 points per game with a VORP of 2.9.

Butler was better also, and he was a heck of a lot cheaper to pick up the option on being the 30th pick in the draft.

Look historically it is very rare for a player to vastly improve after 2 sub par seasons. Odds are strong Jackson never gets better than being a mediocre bench player.

Everyone should be honest at this point that he is not the player we hoped he would be, and most likely never will be.

I will say this - in just 3 or 4 games of Oubre, I think most people would agree he should be kept over Jackson - and that may well be the decision that has to be made.

I understand what you are saying however I think it is way to early for the Suns to give up on Josh Jackson. He could well be a stronger Kelly Oubre type player in the future. Also it's not like Jackson is taking up roster space for a better player. The Suns have a lots of holes to fill and he is still on a rookie salary.

 

[Mainstreet]

I liked this tweet as it sort of captured the moment in the Suns win.

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[Chaplin]

I've said before that JJ is Goodwin 2.0 but with a better motor and D.

By definition, you just described a player who IS NOT Goodwin 2.0. Don't get some of these comparisons...

Devin Booker is Michael Jordan, just without the Defense and killer instinct.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I was reading a Magic message board, and even they were incredulous about the foul call at the end of regulation. The general consensus was that it was not a foul and DJ should not have even been trying to draw it, but they would take it because they never usually get the benefit.

One player even said that this loss was worse for Orlando because they lost the game "even with the refs in our hip pocket."

 

[Suns_fan69]

I've said before that JJ is Goodwin 2.0 but with a better motor and D.

He's more than that. He's got borderline elite level D, if he can just be average on offense, he's still a net positive for the team. His passing is already quite good for a 2nd year forward, if he can get control of his turnovers he truly could be our poor man's Draymond.

 

[devilalum]

By definition, you just described a player who IS NOT Goodwin 2.0. Don't get some of these comparisons...

Devin Booker is Michael Jordan, just without the Defense and killer instinct.

I know you're joking but I disagree, Booker has the same killer instincts as Jordan. IMO its one of his best attributes.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was reading a Magic message board, and even they were incredulous about the foul call at the end of regulation. The general consensus was that it was not a foul and DJ should not have even been trying to draw it, but they would take it because they never usually get the benefit.

One player even said that this loss was worse for Orlando because they lost the game "even with the refs in our hip pocket."

Yeah, I probably read the same forum last night and more than a few commented on the breaks they were getting from the refs. One of them even said something like "the refs really must not like the Suns". Anyway, I found it interesting that more than a few of their fans decided this would be the loss that should propel them into tank mode.

 

[devilalum]

I was reading a Magic message board, and even they were incredulous about the foul call at the end of regulation. The general consensus was that it was not a foul and DJ should not have even been trying to draw it, but they would take it because they never usually get the benefit.

One player even said that this loss was worse for Orlando because they lost the game "even with the refs in our hip pocket."

The ref that called the foul had the best view in the house. Unbelievable.

 

[95pro]

He's more than that. He's got borderline elite level D, if he can just be average on offense, he's still a net positive for the team. His passing is already quite good for a 2nd year forward, if he can get control of his turnovers he truly could be our poor man's Draymond.

He's still an asset to me, I'd like to see him stay and hopefully develop. He just reminds me of Goodwin in that his 3pt shot isn't there and can sometimes force the issue too much.

Other than that he seems confident, can penetrate as well as make some assists that others can't really make on this team. He has that little stepback from the top of the key he makes a lot too. Hopefully he can just get that 3pt stroke refined.

Lately it looks like the game is slowing down to him and might be the reason he's playing better. We shall see if he can continue this trend.

 

[Proximo]

Jackson is +47 over our last 7 games. We are 5 and 2 over our last 7 games. He's shown many times that he can positively impact this team. So, with Jackson, unlike so many failures before him, it's not really about teaching him how to do good things, it's about stopping him from doing bad things. And remember, Oubre is in his 4th season, Jackson just his second. Oubre's first 2 seasons weren't appreciably better than what we've seen from Josh so far. And we've had far too few potential 2 way players through the years to give up on JJ anytime soon, IMO.

He is playing better the last 7 games, but still not what I would describe as good. His defense has been good, but his offense is still highly suspect.

Here is the thing people don't seem to be getting.

The Suns have 77 million committed for next year in salaries. Meaning 25 million or so in cap space.

They most likely have a top 5 draft pick to sign - Anywhere from 5-8 million, Rachaun Holmes to resign - likely at least 5 million a year maybe more, Oubre probably at least 10 million - and people want us to sign a free agent pg - which will likely cost between 10 - 18 million.

Something has to give.

Right now if I have to choose between a free agent PG or Josh Jackson, I go PG. If I have to choose between Oubre and Jackson I go Oubre. Heck if I have to choose between Holmes and Jackson I go Holmes right now.

I get wanting to keep him and see if he develops, but I am not sure our cap situation is going to give us that luxury, because what other large salary we have is something we want to dump and is dumpable?

Anderson is not dumpable, and we don't want to dump TJ, Ayton, Booker or Bridges.

 

[JCSunsfan]

He's more than that. He's got borderline elite level D, if he can just be average on offense, he's still a net positive for the team. His passing is already quite good for a 2nd year forward, if he can get control of his turnovers he truly could be our poor man's Draymond.

JJ's play has been much better of late. But he was so bad at the beginning of the year, and his stats were so bad, that those who look at his numbers are only going to see bad for this year.

 

[SirStefan32]

He is playing better the last 7 games, but still not would I describe as good. His defense has been good, but his offense is still highly suspect.

Here is the thing people don't seem to be getting.

The Suns have 77 million committed for next year in salaries. Meaning 25 million or so in cap space.

They most likely have a top 5 draft pick to sign - Anywhere from 5-8 million, Rachaun Holmes to resign - likely at least 5 million a year maybe more, Oubre probably at least 10 million - and people want us to sign a free agent pg - which will likely cost between 10 - 18 million.

Something has to give.

Right now if I have to choose between a free agent PG or Josh Jackson, I go PG. If I have to choose between Oubre and Jackson I go Oubre. Heck if I have to choose between Holmes and Jackson I go Holmes right now.

I get wanting to keep him and see if he develops, but I am not sure our cap situation is going to give us that luxury, because what other large salary we have is something we want to dump and is dumpable?

Anderson is not dumpable, and we don't want to dump TJ, Ayton, Booker or Bridges.

While I agree, I think Anderson can be waived and stretched which should add some cap space. I am seeing 67M in salary if they waive and stretch him (5.5M per season for three years if I am understanding what he agreed to).

I do agree that something has to give. I would definitely choose a point guard over him, Oubre over him, and even Holmes over him right now. That said, I do understand the folks who want to give him time. Honestly, I want to give him time, but I am not sure they can do everything they want to do and keep Jackson.

 

[SirStefan32]

JJ's play has been much better of late. But he was so bad at the beginning of the year, and his stats were so bad, that those who look at his numbers are only going to see bad for this year.

For me, it's the stupid stuff he does. Like last night, he took an awful shot and then committed a clear-path foul. He's have a sequence like that at least once per game. He can play, but he just cannot help but do stupid stuff out there. That's what frustrates me more than anything else.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He is playing better the last 7 games, but still not what I would describe as good. His defense has been good, but his offense is still highly suspect.

Here is the thing people don't seem to be getting.

The Suns have 77 million committed for next year in salaries. Meaning 25 million or so in cap space.

They most likely have a top 5 draft pick to sign - Anywhere from 5-8 million, Rachaun Holmes to resign - likely at least 5 million a year maybe more, Oubre probably at least 10 million - and people want us to sign a free agent pg - which will likely cost between 10 - 18 million.

Something has to give.

Right now if I have to choose between a free agent PG or Josh Jackson, I go PG. If I have to choose between Oubre and Jackson I go Oubre. Heck if I have to choose between Holmes and Jackson I go Holmes right now.

I get wanting to keep him and see if he develops, but I am not sure our cap situation is going to give us that luxury, because what other large salary we have is something we want to dump and is dumpable?

Anderson is not dumpable, and we don't want to dump TJ, Ayton, Booker or Bridges.

First off, I think you're well low on a couple of those salary guesses (Holmes and Oubre). If the time comes that we have to let Josh go to sign a quality free agent, maybe I'll change my mind. But until then, it makes no sense to move on from someone that has shown flashes of greatness despite having also displayed an abundance of team-killing plays. And there are other ways of acquiring a PG including this next draft. We most likely won't draw the Zion straw but we should still have a fairly good chance at getting a point guard that we like with our high pick.

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh yeah, Oubre is not going to be available for less than $15M. Holmes will get closer to 8-10M.