Suns hire Frank Vogel as next head coach

Covert Rain

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From what I see, Nurk receives little to no backside defensive help.
Not what I am talking about though. Much to often he is in there in the paint and someone drives on him like he is not even there. Eddie Johnson called it out multiple times last night.
 

Peter Sheldon

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The way Grayson Allen has played, he gives the Suns a big four. I don't see how the Suns can think about trading him.
Yeah, I feel like Grayson's played himself to a level of "untradeable". His obvious offensive ability plus some timely defense when it counts. Generally smart play. Whatever you gain from him in a trade won't equate to what you will have lost. You watch KD and AG and it's like when they shoot you expect it to go in. Not so with ANY other player on the Suns. I don't know what is going on with Booker. Aside from a random good shooting night, he's just not hitting shots. That short mid-range of his used to be gold. Injury? Eyesight issue? This is not the same guy who could drop 70 on Boston. Mind you, he is helping the team in other ways.
 

Chaplin

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Not what I am talking about though. Much to often he is in there in the paint and someone drives on him like he is not even there. Eddie Johnson called it out multiple times last night.
Who is "someone"? Sabonis, or some other guard that already beats their man? Remember, because Sabonis parks so far on the perimeter, Nurk is already far from the basket and is not mobile enough to move to block off a guard with Fox's speed. That doesn't mean he's a wasted player. Or even a bad one. If there is no backside help when Nurk is that far out guarding Sabonis, how do you expect him to stay with speedy guards that are driving? Seems like an unrealistic expectation to me.

It's calculated to put Nurk 6 feet away from the basket. He can't guard the perimeter and he isn't effective when they drive. That's good offense and not really a failing of Nurk's defense. He's supposed to have help in team defense, and he usually doesn't get any.
 

Mainstreet

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Yeah, I feel like Grayson's played himself to a level of "untradeable". His obvious offensive ability plus some timely defense when it counts. Generally smart play. Whatever you gain from him in a trade won't equate to what you will have lost. You watch KD and AG and it's like when they shoot you expect it to go in. Not so with ANY other player on the Suns. I don't know what is going on with Booker. Aside from a random good shooting night, he's just not hitting shots. That short mid-range of his used to be gold. Injury? Eyesight issue? This is not the same guy who could drop 70 on Boston. Mind you, he is helping the team in other ways.

Devin has had his problems shooting, but he was definitely point Booker in the 4th quarter.

Kudos to him for putting the team first.
 

Covert Rain

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Who is "someone"? Sabonis, or some other guard that already beats their man? Remember, because Sabonis parks so far on the perimeter, Nurk is already far from the basket and is not mobile enough to move to block off a guard with Fox's speed. That doesn't mean he's a wasted player. Or even a bad one. If there is no backside help when Nurk is that far out guarding Sabonis, how do you expect him to stay with speedy guards that are driving? Seems like an unrealistic expectation to me.

It's calculated to put Nurk 6 feet away from the basket. He can't guard the perimeter and he isn't effective when they drive. That's good offense and not really a failing of Nurk's defense. He's supposed to have help in team defense, and he usually doesn't get any.
It doesn't matter who the someone is. Your job as a center is to protect the rim. Sometimes you need help sometimes you don't. I don't have a break down of every scenario do you? Just making the observation that in the games I have watched way to often people are not intimidated or deterred by his defense. We had seen it again last night. I don't think asking your center to do play better defense is unrealistic. Again, it is possible to praise the things he does well and be critical of things he doesn't.
 
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Mainstreet

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It doesn't matter who the someone is. Your job as a center is to protect the rim. Sometimes you need help sometimes you don't. I don't have a break down of every scenario do you? Just making the observation that in the games I have watched way to often people are not intimidated or deterred by his defense. We had seen in again last night. I don't think asking your center to do play better defense is unrealistic. Again, it is possible to praise the things he does well and be critical of things he doesn't.

Nurkic has limited mobility and the Suns need to accept that. If he guards outside, that leaves the lane open.

I'd rather take the lane away from the opponent. The way it is now, the opponent has both options.
 

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It doesn't matter who the someone is. Your job as a center is to protect the rim. Sometimes you need help sometimes you don't. I don't have a break down of every scenario do you? Just making the observation that in the games I have watched way to often people are not intimidated or deterred by his defense. We had seen it again last night. I don't think asking your center to do play better defense is unrealistic. Again, it is possible to praise the things he does well and be critical of things he doesn't.
This post completely ignores what I mentioned in my post about Sacramento specifically. Sure, Nurk isn't the greatest defensive center in the league, but you make it sound like he isn't fit to be on an NBA roster.

You want an end-all be-all solution when one doesn't exist. It makes having objective conversations difficult when people don't actually discuss the specifics and instead generalize. (Note, that is a general observation not specifically towards you alone)
 

Chaplin

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Nurkic has limited mobility and the Suns need to accept that. If he guards outside, that leaves the lane open.

I'd rather take the lane away from the opponent. The way it is now, the opponent has both options.
The Suns DO accept that. It's the fans that don't. They want athletic Ayton with IQ Nurk.
 

Covert Rain

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This post completely ignores what I mentioned in my post about Sacramento specifically. Sure, Nurk isn't the greatest defensive center in the league, but you make it sound like he isn't fit to be on an NBA roster.

You want an end-all be-all solution when one doesn't exist. It makes having objective conversations difficult when people don't actually discuss the specifics and instead generalize. (Note, that is a general observation not specifically towards you alone)
I did no such thing. I literally in multiple posts said what he did well. That doesn't not translate into not being fit into the NBA center. What makes objective conversations difficult is when you can't point out the good and bad without someone exaggerating or getting defensive as soon as you point out the bad.
 

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I did no such thing. I literally in multiple posts said what he did well. That doesn't not translate into not being fit into the NBA center. What makes objective conversations difficult is when you can't point out the good and bad without someone exaggerating or getting defensive as soon as you point out the bad.
When did I exaggerate? When did I get defensive?

I stated what amounts to be facts -- Nurk is not a great center against teams that have athletic guys like Sabonis playing the 5. That's it. Do you disagree with that? Or maybe you disagree with my other statement that he is more effective against less mobile guys like Jokic. I just don't get the Nurk hate coming from you and a few others. Sabonis was eating him alive in this game, blame Vogel for leaving him out there so long. But we damn sure needed each and every one of his 15 rebounds.
 

Covert Rain

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When did I exaggerate? When did I get defensive?

I stated what amounts to be facts -- Nurk is not a great center against teams that have athletic guys like Sabonis playing the 5. That's it. Do you disagree with that? Or maybe you disagree with my other statement that he is more effective against less mobile guys like Jokic. I just don't get the Nurk hate coming from you and a few others. Sabonis was eating him alive in this game, blame Vogel for leaving him out there so long. But we damn sure needed each and every one of his 15 rebounds.
You claimed "but you make it sound like he isn't fit to be on an NBA roster.". That's a gross exaggeration especially when I pointed out what he does well. The fact that you can't handle someone pointing out the good and the bad is getting defensive. If I had only said something positive you wouldn't have even bothered to reply.

What is wrong with pointing out both?
 

Chaplin

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You claimed "but you make it sound like he isn't fit to be on an NBA roster.". That's a gross exaggeration especially when I pointed out what he does well. The fact that you can't handle someone pointing out the good and the bad is getting defensive. If I had only said something positive you wouldn't have even bothered to reply.

What is wrong with pointing out both?
So what are you advocating? You say you appreciate what he provides on offense, but he was bad on defense against the Kings. Yes, that is true and I'll agree with that. However, you make it sound like he shouldn't be played against any team because of his defensive skills. I think he is similar to Steve Nash in that Nurk would be terrific in a team defense concept where he has help behind him, especially against teams that will pull him out and away from the basket like the Kings. It's just hard for him individually against guys like Sabonis and Lauri Markannen and KAT and Bam who use their athleticism and hang out around the perimeter more than a normal 5.

Assuming the Suns don't get rid of him, what would your plan of action be moving forward?
 

Covert Rain

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So what are you advocating? You say you appreciate what he provides on offense, but he was bad on defense against the Kings. Yes, that is true and I'll agree with that. However, you make it sound like he shouldn't be played against any team because of his defensive skills. I think he is similar to Steve Nash in that Nurk would be terrific in a team defense concept where he has help behind him, especially against teams that will pull him out and away from the basket like the Kings. It's just hard for him individually against guys like Sabonis and Lauri Markannen and KAT and Bam who use their athleticism and hang out around the perimeter more than a normal 5.

Assuming the Suns don't get rid of him, what would your plan of action be moving forward?
Again, why do you keep going where I wasn't going? I never said anything about not playing him. Just because I point out something someone does well and something they seem to struggle with doesn't mean they are not NBA players and we shouldn't play them. You are going to a place nobody else is going. I am not advocating anything. Simply pointing out where he excels and where he struggles. There is nothing we can do this season. If our defense continues to be piss poor in the paint all season long, the Suns might have to find another solution. For now? Not advocating a thing.
 

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Again, why do you keep going where I wasn't going? I never said anything about not playing him. Just because I point out something someone does well and something they seem to struggle with doesn't mean they are not NBA players and we shouldn't play them. You are going to a place nobody else is going. I am not advocating anything. Simply pointing out where he excels and where he struggles. There is nothing we can do this season. If our defense continues to be piss poor in the paint all season long, the Suns might have to find another solution. For now? Not advocating a thing.
And yet you still can't answer the simple question -- what would you do? You are complaining about Nurk but not providing any alternatives. If you don't have any, then just say you don't.
 

Covert Rain

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And yet you still can't answer the simple question -- what would you do? You are complaining about Nurk but not providing any alternatives. If you don't have any, then just say you don't.
There is nothing the Suns can do right now. It's a stupid question but in a perfect world where the Suns have cap space and could move him? I might move him for a FC player that is better defensively.

Again, you seem to live in a bubble where saying only positive things about a player is fine but you can't provide any critique without you adding on a requirement that you must come up with a trade scenario. Pointing out what they do well and not well doesn't require a solution. Every player on the team does things well and other not so well. So, do we have to have alternatives for them too? Now you are being absurd.
 
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Chaplin

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There is nothing the Suns can do right now. It's a stupid question but in a perfect world where the Suns have cap space and could move him? I might move him for a FC player that is better defensively.

Again, you seem to live in a bubble where saying only positive things about a player is fine but you can't provide any critique without you adding on a requirement that you must come up with a trade scenario. Pointing out what they do well and not well doesn't require a solution. Every player on the team does things well and other not so well. So, do we have to have alternatives for them too? Now you are being absurd.
Lol

Looks like we're both misrepresenting each other's positions.
 

1982baskets

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The way Grayson Allen has played, he gives the Suns a big four. I don't see how the Suns can think about trading him.
Core balance is more important than having a fourth option shooter. Especially with him heading to free agency. Our core with Nurk/Allen doesn't give us enough defense to be elite there, at the same time it doesn't give us enough offense (due to Nurk, spacing) to be dominant powerhouse there, either.

That said, perhaps if we move Durant to get all the backup 5 minutes, closing minutes, and if Bol Bol can be a part of the equation, we can then space the floor in such a way that Grayson's more like a core player. We need to have great spacing to be the type of team on offense that can run through teams.

It all comes down to if we can cut down Nurk's minutes, improve our bench without moving Grayson. I totally get his value, but we need to improve. He's also a free agent, likely to leave in the offseason. If the ownership is willing to pay the taxes to keep him, it's a different thing. If he's walking at season's end, you should try to get some longterm value for him.

I see this season as unlikely to yield anything more than a playoff apperance (at best). Next season, we should be prepared to address all the weaknesses. Length, athleticism and 3 point shooting should be prioritized around KD/Book/Beal. Another thing? If we start to look at playoff matches. This season or next. Where does Allen fit in defensively against other teams? KD can take be used as a 4 or 5 who can switch onto smalls. Book/Beal are not great defenders, but Beal has shown he will give you some defense on the perimeter. We need that wing defender out there with them that can take the toughest defensive assignments. I think Allen makes this team look rather small on the perimeter. We're basically playing 3 SGs with Allen/Beal/Allen.
 

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last night at the Pels game, when a pelican was attempting free throws, you could hear Vogel saying “rebound” like he was instructing players to rebound the ball during the free throws. I think this could be an example of reasons why the team can tune him out sometimes.

Winning cures all.
 

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Core balance is more important than having a fourth option shooter. Especially with him heading to free agency. Our core with Nurk/Allen doesn't give us enough defense to be elite there, at the same time it doesn't give us enough offense (due to Nurk, spacing) to be dominant powerhouse there, either.

That said, perhaps if we move Durant to get all the backup 5 minutes, closing minutes, and if Bol Bol can be a part of the equation, we can then space the floor in such a way that Grayson's more like a core player. We need to have great spacing to be the type of team on offense that can run through teams.

It all comes down to if we can cut down Nurk's minutes, improve our bench without moving Grayson. I totally get his value, but we need to improve. He's also a free agent, likely to leave in the offseason. If the ownership is willing to pay the taxes to keep him, it's a different thing. If he's walking at season's end, you should try to get some longterm value for him.

I see this season as unlikely to yield anything more than a playoff apperance (at best). Next season, we should be prepared to address all the weaknesses. Length, athleticism and 3 point shooting should be prioritized around KD/Book/Beal. Another thing? If we start to look at playoff matches. This season or next. Where does Allen fit in defensively against other teams? KD can take be used as a 4 or 5 who can switch onto smalls. Book/Beal are not great defenders, but Beal has shown he will give you some defense on the perimeter. We need that wing defender out there with them that can take the toughest defensive assignments. I think Allen makes this team look rather small on the perimeter. We're basically playing 3 SGs with Allen/Beal/Allen.

I really like playing Beal, Booker and Allen together. They can also be mixed and matched.

Allen has emerged as third point guard or combo guard. It's all terminology. This was something I was concerned about earlier in the season.

I really liked those quick double teams the Suns ran against the Pelicans. This should help Nurkic as a defender and the Suns interior defense.

I still feel like the Suns need another FC. A backup PG that can play would be nice insurance.
 

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last night at the Pels game, when a pelican was attempting free throws, you could hear Vogel saying “rebound” like he was instructing players to rebound the ball during the free throws. I think this could be an example of reasons why the team can tune him out sometimes.

Winning cures all.
Well, you do know that it's important to rebound a free throw miss.
 

clyde2tw

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last night at the Pels game, when a pelican was attempting free throws, you could hear Vogel saying “rebound” like he was instructing players to rebound the ball during the free throws. I think this could be an example of reasons why the team can tune him out sometimes.

Winning cures all.
Our losses piled up mainly due to collective lack of defensive attention and awareness. We are now much better at D, I guess due to coach's emphasis.
 
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1982baskets

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Our losses piled up mainly due to collective lack of defensive attention and awareness. We are now much better at D, I guess due to coach's emphasis.
Team with pretty much no one in the top 7 has any kind of defensive value around the league or rep. Not a single all defensive team player, not a single elite rim protection player, not a single elite perimeter defender. Pretty much players who have been known for their offense throughout their careers. Don't get me wrong, players like Allen/Durant/Nurk/Beal can all give you some defense. They do have two way ability. However it's not their forte by any means.

So despite that, with all the injuries, this team's 16th in the NBA on defense and 12th on opponent FG% (measure of what teams shoot on us). That's not that bad. We're an average team on defense, maybe above average at best, despite having little talent for it on that end.

This is all the coach can really do, ensure the team knows what defense and what's the focus there. He can't make non-defenders into elite defenders. What we need to do is get a lot better on offense, because the only way this team wins enough games to compete with the best is if the big 3 and Allen go off.
 

Mainstreet

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Team with pretty much no one in the top 7 has any kind of defensive value around the league or rep. Not a single all defensive team player, not a single elite rim protection player, not a single elite perimeter defender. Pretty much players who have been known for their offense throughout their careers. Don't get me wrong, players like Allen/Durant/Nurk/Beal can all give you some defense. They do have two way ability. However it's not their forte by any means.

So despite that, with all the injuries, this team's 16th in the NBA on defense and 12th on opponent FG% (measure of what teams shoot on us). That's not that bad. We're an average team on defense, maybe above average at best, despite having little talent for it on that end.

This is all the coach can really do, ensure the team knows what defense and what's the focus there. He can't make non-defenders into elite defenders. What we need to do is get a lot better on offense, because the only way this team wins enough games to compete with the best is if the big 3 and Allen go off.

Those quick double teams in the lane were a new wrinkle, unless the players had been ignoring the coaching.

It was refreshing to see the Suns cause chaos on defense and get out on the fast break.
 
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