Suns hire Frank Vogel as next head coach

BirdGangThing

Casual Fan
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
Posts
12,880
Reaction score
16,643
Location
Arcadia
If you're name isn't KD Book or Beal - and if you're not playing defense or rebounding the ball - don't even bother getting off the bench unless it's to high five someone who is

Vogel has essentially given up on mediocre 3 point shooters - it's either Gordon or Allen and sometimes both

It's because Vogel is understandably good with KD Book and Beal shooting the threes - I mean who needs Yuta when KD is leading the league

Rebounds and defense
 
Last edited:

1982baskets

Veteran
Joined
Nov 18, 2023
Posts
126
Reaction score
146
Location
Arizona
For a team that has a top 6 that includes Nurk, Gordon, Allen, Booker, KD. All of whom are not known for their defensive impact on games. Basically no lockdown, defensive high quality player. We're 11th in the league in defensive field goal percentage, and 16th in effeciency.

If we can find ways to rebound the ball, we can probably become a solid defensive team. Because we do get teams to miss, and we do have some good schemes.

Our main issue remains length, athleticism. We don't have those high motor long armed athletic players in the top 6 that can make an impact defensively, get rebounds, challenge those 3 point shots. That's where we suffer the most defensively.

However this is definitely our most competitive squad, when we play Allen/Gordon/Nurk as the next top 3 minute guys after Beal/Book/KD.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,988
Reaction score
53,649
For a team that has a top 6 that includes Nurk, Gordon, Allen, Booker, KD. All of whom are not known for their defensive impact on games. Basically no lockdown, defensive high quality player. We're 11th in the league in defensive field goal percentage, and 16th in effeciency.

If we can find ways to rebound the ball, we can probably become a solid defensive team. Because we do get teams to miss, and we do have some good schemes.

Our main issue remains length, athleticism. We don't have those high motor long armed athletic players in the top 6 that can make an impact defensively, get rebounds, challenge those 3 point shots. That's where we suffer the most defensively.

However this is definitely our most competitive squad, when we play Allen/Gordon/Nurk as the next top 3 minute guys after Beal/Book/KD.

Earlier in the season, the Suns were being praised for their length. It just hasn't worked out that way.

The Suns really need a power forward that can play alongside Nurkic. We see Vogel experimenting with different rotations, trying to give the Suns more size. Little is not looking like the answer as a backup power forward.
 

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
21,381
Reaction score
10,886
Location
Laveen, AZ
Earlier in the season, the Suns were being praised for their length. It just hasn't worked out that way.

The Suns really need a power forward that can play alongside Nurkic. We see Vogel experimenting with different rotations, trying to give the Suns more size. Little is not looking like the answer as a backup power forward.
I think Little was looking good until the knee problem. His unavailability his really hurting him right now. He had a good mix of defense AND Offense for the role. The only thing he lacked was the length of someone like Bol Bol.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
16,553
Reaction score
11,641
Location
Tempe, AZ
Little reminds me of Derrick Jones Jr. He has a better shot but very similar in skillset.
 

1982baskets

Veteran
Joined
Nov 18, 2023
Posts
126
Reaction score
146
Location
Arizona
Earlier in the season, the Suns were being praised for their length. It just hasn't worked out that way.

The Suns really need a power forward that can play alongside Nurkic. We see Vogel experimenting with different rotations, trying to give the Suns more size. Little is not looking like the answer as a backup power forward.
As I said, they've come to terms with that their best players, their top 6 (includes Grayson/Gordon/Nurk) can not give them length and defense needed to be dominant on that end. So they're trying to be a good team on both ends. It's probably the closest it has been to being pretty good on both ends.

We've had a grand total of full 3 games with KD/Book/Beal. I wonder if they can ever get a run together with Allen/Gordon/Nurk. Having a top 6 like that, you can round off your 8-9 man rotation with some players like Metu, Bol, Okogie or Little to get enough length.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,988
Reaction score
53,649
As I said, they've come to terms with that their best players, their top 6 (includes Grayson/Gordon/Nurk) can not give them length and defense needed to be dominant on that end. So they're trying to be a good team on both ends. It's probably the closest it has been to being pretty good on both ends.

We've had a grand total of full 3 games with KD/Book/Beal. I wonder if they can ever get a run together with Allen/Gordon/Nurk. Having a top 6 like that, you can round off your 8-9 man rotation with some players like Metu, Bol, Okogie or Little to get enough length.

I'm not sure if the Bol Bol experiment works out for the Suns, but he is giving the Suns a glimpse of what they need... depth at center and power forward.

It's great to see a FC like Bol Bol who is mobile, can shoot, rebound and help guard the basket. In short, he is want the Suns wanted from Ayton.
 

1982baskets

Veteran
Joined
Nov 18, 2023
Posts
126
Reaction score
146
Location
Arizona
Don't look now, but this group of non-defenders is 16th in the NBA on team defense, and 13th on defensive fg%. Frank Vogel has taken a group of non-defenders and made them decent. That's all you can ask him on that end.

What this staff needs is more volume 3 point shooters who defend. Bol Bol/Okogie types who make a defensive impact but then who can shoot volume 3s. Instead our volume 3 point shooters are non-defensive impact guys like Grayson and Gordon ... not to mention Booker.

I looked up Frank's teams that have done well, they've always had 1 elite defensive player and a few solid defenders around him the starting lineup. Until we don't get that elite defensive player, we're stuck.
 

BirdGangThing

Casual Fan
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
Posts
12,880
Reaction score
16,643
Location
Arcadia
We have to start and finish games with the "big 3"

They're our best 3 players

Gotta run Nurk with them - he means rebounds - he and KD provide the rim protection

That's 4 - after that you have to start asking yourself big questions like the chicken or the egg - the offense or the defense

Okogie is the defense and Allen the offense

It's why everything depends on who we're playing and how we're playing - personally I like it when okogie and gordon are on the floor at the same time and I like Allen running with the bigs but once the game gets started you're not just running who you want to play - you're also reacting to the other team's cast

We have plenty of 3 pt shooters - some who haven't even hit their stride yet and another who hasn't seen the floor yet - if we make a move and it's for another 3 pt shooter lmk ahead of time because I need to put some insurance on my phone
 

BirdGangThing

Casual Fan
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
Posts
12,880
Reaction score
16,643
Location
Arcadia
Okay man - everyone knows I am of the opinion it's far easier to fire a coach than it is to replace them but come on man

Let's scroll back to the first quarter last night - we were hoping some problems could be in the rear view but of course not - the injury riddled roster crippled Portland Trail Blazers started putting it on us once again

I think they were up by 10 or 12 points at one point - I don't remember - but I do recall the only reason we weren't down by 20 was because of Bradley Beal

While others were still looking for their shot to fall Beal goes 3 for 3 from deep and may have scored another bucket before Vogel makes his first substitution

He leaves KD Book Allen and Nurk in - yanks Beal and puts Gordon in (who's been struggling from deep mind you) at a time when we clearly need defense if anything ... and Eric Gordon?

Obviously it didn't work - and other subs came a few minutes later but what was the thinking there? Remove your only offensive production to that point and replace it with less offensive production and more of a defensive liability - because that's what happened

Like I said I aint one to call for someone's head but that one made my brain hurt - I was staring at the bench during game play trying to see if Beal was getting medical attention or if his shoes had come untied - something - anything but I'm pretty sure he was just chillin bob dylan

And why didn't we go big while focusing on Scooter? We had the personnel - Portland didn't

idk man
 

nashman

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 3, 2007
Posts
10,556
Reaction score
7,271
Location
Queen Creek, AZ
Okay man - everyone knows I am of the opinion it's far easier to fire a coach than it is to replace them but come on man

Let's scroll back to the first quarter last night - we were hoping some problems could be in the rear view but of course not - the injury riddled roster crippled Portland Trail Blazers started putting it on us once again

I think they were up by 10 or 12 points at one point - I don't remember - but I do recall the only reason we weren't down by 20 was because of Bradley Beal

While others were still looking for their shot to fall Beal goes 3 for 3 from deep and may have scored another bucket before Vogel makes his first substitution

He leaves KD Book Allen and Nurk in - yanks Beal and puts Gordon in (who's been struggling from deep mind you) at a time when we clearly need defense if anything ... and Eric Gordon?

Obviously it didn't work - and other subs came a few minutes later but what was the thinking there? Remove your only offensive production to that point and replace it with less offensive production and more of a defensive liability - because that's what happened

Like I said I aint one to call for someone's head but that one made my brain hurt - I was staring at the bench during game play trying to see if Beal was getting medical attention or if his shoes had come untied - something - anything but I'm pretty sure he was just chillin bob dylan

And why didn't we go big while focusing on Scooter? We had the personnel - Portland didn't

idk man
Definitely still some strange rotations and at weird times. Beal was hot shouldn’t have came out should have subbed KD or Book if you needed to but agree to put in EG was beyond a terrible decision! And you can’t just forget about guys like Little, Metu, Yuta, KBD use them they never gonna blend in or get out of funks if you never damn play them! Go deeper mix it up and put some lineups out there with length even if just for few minutes to disrupt teams! For a supposed defensive guru Franks plan seems to be just outscore teams it’s weird!
 

1982baskets

Veteran
Joined
Nov 18, 2023
Posts
126
Reaction score
146
Location
Arizona
Since Beal's return on Dec 29th, Suns are 7-3, and 5th in the league in offense. 17th on defense. This is the "best I can realistically hope for" case scenario for this team. Beal (with Booker and Durant) + one of our shooters go off (Like Grayson last night). Gives us elite offense. Defensively, Vogel has a team of not so good defenders playing respectable defense.

I still hope we make a move. We need more length and athleticism in our core lineup. Our core lineups are all challenged. I also like this team much more when they are aggressive shooting the 3 ball. Since the Lakers game, our volume of 3s has gone up.

I like Nurk, but in today's NBA I feel he should be getting 20 minutes. The rest of our C minutes need to be given to someone that can space the floor and give you some athleticism in the middle. We need a stretch 5 that can rim protect. Nurk is solid, strong and quite skilled. If we get into the playoffs his toughness will be useful. But on a game to game basis, overall as a team, we definitely need more length and athleticism at the 5.
 

taz02

All Star
Joined
May 8, 2007
Posts
928
Reaction score
454
Since Beal's return on Dec 29th, Suns are 7-3, and 5th in the league in offense. 17th on defense. This is the "best I can realistically hope for" case scenario for this team. Beal (with Booker and Durant) + one of our shooters go off (Like Grayson last night). Gives us elite offense. Defensively, Vogel has a team of not so good defenders playing respectable defense.

I still hope we make a move. We need more length and athleticism in our core lineup. Our core lineups are all challenged. I also like this team much more when they are aggressive shooting the 3 ball. Since the Lakers game, our volume of 3s has gone up.

I like Nurk, but in today's NBA I feel he should be getting 20 minutes. The rest of our C minutes need to be given to someone that can space the floor and give you some athleticism in the middle. We need a stretch 5 that can rim protect. Nurk is solid, strong and quite skilled. If we get into the playoffs his toughness will be useful. But on a game to game basis, overall as a team, we definitely need more length and athleticism at the 5.

I agree. Bol is the closet thing we have and are likely to have in the near future.

We realistically have two trade chips outside the big three, Allen and Nurc. We can trade one of these two for a stretch 5 making about 18 mil. for a nurc trade or 10 mil for an Allen trade.

Finding an available, difference making stretch 5, for less than 18mil or less than 10 will be tough.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,988
Reaction score
53,649
I agree. Bol is the closet thing we have and are likely to have in the near future.

We realistically have two trade chips outside the big three, Allen and Nurc. We can trade one of these two for a stretch 5 making about 18 mil. for a nurc trade or 10 mil for an Allen trade.

Finding an available, difference making stretch 5, for less than 18mil or less than 10 will be tough.

The way Grayson Allen has played, he gives the Suns a big four. I don't see how the Suns can think about trading him.
 

BirdGangThing

Casual Fan
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
Posts
12,880
Reaction score
16,643
Location
Arcadia
Nurk is super valuable against many teams - like the NBA champions for example - other teams not so much - but it's funny how we seem to have such short memories

What we saw last night was a small ball line up that can score score score even more than Scoremento - but that same line up will be muy vulnerable against other bigger line ups like most run and gun teams are

My point is we can have both and run whoever's appropriate at the time - and last night's small ball saved the day
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
45,451
Reaction score
15,397
Location
Round Rock, TX
Nurk is super valuable against many teams - like the NBA champions for example - other teams not so much - but it's funny how we seem to have such short memories

What we saw last night was a small ball line up that can score score score even more than Scoremento - but that same line up will be muy vulnerable against other bigger line ups like most run and gun teams are

My point is we can have both and run whoever's appropriate at the time - and last night's small ball saved the day
Yeah for some reason Nurk is getting a lot of hate from a few posters this morning. But he has value in many different ways and in many different levels depending on the opponent. A mobile center like Sabonis is a tough cover, but he’s good against less mobile ones like Jokic.

There’s a reason why ESPN still thinks he is a top 10 center in the league.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
35,288
Reaction score
13,601
Location
Arizona
Yeah for some reason Nurk is getting a lot of hate from a few posters this morning. But he has value in many different ways and in many different levels depending on the opponent. A mobile center like Sabonis is a tough cover, but he’s good against less mobile ones like Jokic.

There’s a reason why ESPN still thinks he is a top 10 center in the league.
I don't hate Nurk he just at times is one of the worst defenders on the team. I do like what he does for us offensively. It's nice to see him go to the hole and I like his passing. It is possible to acknowledge both. However, it's also telling when it was on the line Nurk was on the bench and it's not the first time.
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
45,451
Reaction score
15,397
Location
Round Rock, TX
I don't hate Nurk he just at times is one of the worst defenders on the team. I do like what he does for us offensively. It's nice to see him go to the hole and I like his passing. It is possible to acknowledge both. However, it's also telling when it was on the line Nurk was on the bench and it's not the first time.
It doesn’t help that he is the only player on the entire team that can provide one of the most important things a team needs—rebounding.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
35,288
Reaction score
13,601
Location
Arizona
It doesn’t help that he is the only player on the entire team that can provide one of the most important things a team needs—rebounding.
The Suns are in a catch 22. The need the things he provides in other aspects. However, doesn't change the fact that all night long the paint was a revolving door.
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
45,451
Reaction score
15,397
Location
Round Rock, TX
The Suns are in a catch 22. The need the things he provides in other aspects. However, doesn't change the fact that all night long the paint was a revolving door.
Again you are talking about the Kings, who have a very mobile center who goes out on the perimeter a lot. You’ll notice Sabonis didn’t post up Nurk at all. It was all drives from the top of the key. Nurk has the strength, but again, the Kings are not a good matchup for him.
 

CardNots

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Posts
4,153
Reaction score
3,873
Location
Jenks, Oklahoma
I don't hate Nurk he just at times is one of the worst defenders on the team. I do like what he does for us offensively. It's nice to see him go to the hole and I like his passing. It is possible to acknowledge both. However, it's also telling when it was on the line Nurk was on the bench and it's not the first time.
From what I see, Nurk receives little to no backside defensive help.
 
Top