Suns @ Grizzlies Friday game thread, 11-24-2023 - In-Season Tournament #4

leclerc

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Typical. I was just waiting for the bad news that Durant would be out. He's had to step up big-time because of the surprising injuries on Book and Beal, so off course, that old slim reaper body will not hold up to all that wear and tear.

"Vogel didn't think Durant's minutes factored into this. 2nd in NBA in total played."

Great. A coach with real insight to sports and the NBA. Just great.
 

1982baskets

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After a slow 4-6 start where the Suns have had a lot of injuries, they're now about where most thought they could be (top 4-5 in the West). What's interesting is they have done this all without the Durant/Book/Beal playing a game together, and in fact the tally is:

Book/Durant 6-1
Durant/Beal 1-2
Book only 1-0
Durant only 2-3

The role players around these guys are starting to get accustomed to their roles making some impact.

Some role players that should get mention:
Nurkic has a +6.9 NET (Offense-Defense=NET) rating in 27 min a game
Goodwin has a +7.8 NET rating in 15 min a game (99 defensive rating which is elite)
Gordon has a +4.7 NET rating in 31 min a game (120 offense rating)
Eubanks has a +4.2 NET rating in 18 min
Allen has a +2.5 NET rating in 32 min a game

Gonna give Vogel credit here. He didn't panic after the slow start and when the injuries have hit he has remained behind his role players and rotations. And now the team is making plays and executing plays more consistently.
 
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1982baskets

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For example, Gordon is a player many (including myself) wasn't a big fan of being a big minutes player, but with so many injuries his offense has been valuable. He's got a 120 offense rating, and that's very good for a starting player that plays so many minutes. Goodwin/Gordon are actually a combo that gives you a combo of offense and defense. Meanwhile also developing Nas Little, perhaps he can become a reliable two way player. Goodwin, when he makes shots, is a two way player.

The big question wil be what happens when Beal returns? It will be a big role shift for many players. At this point, I'd love for Beal to take on a sixth man off the bench role. Lead the second unit, and close games giving the Suns a second ballhandler next to Booker. In the limited time I saw Beal, and it may have been that he wasn't healthy in those 3 games, it made more sense to utilize him off the bench. However if he steps up his defense and becomes more savvy with his methods to attack, it could work.

One thing also to mention - one of Vogel's assistants is from Miami when they had the Wade/James/Bosh combination that went to 4 NBA Finals/2 championships.
 

BirdGangThing

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For example, Gordon is a player many (including myself) wasn't a big fan of being a big minutes player, but with so many injuries his offense has been valuable. He's got a 120 offense rating, and that's very good for a starting player that plays so many minutes. Goodwin/Gordon are actually a combo that gives you a combo of offense and defense. Meanwhile also developing Nas Little, perhaps he can become a reliable two way player. Goodwin, when he makes shots, is a two way player.

The big question wil be what happens when Beal returns? It will be a big role shift for many players. At this point, I'd love for Beal to take on a sixth man off the bench role. Lead the second unit, and close games giving the Suns a second ballhandler next to Booker. In the limited time I saw Beal, and it may have been that he wasn't healthy in those 3 games, it made more sense to utilize him off the bench. However if he steps up his defense and becomes more savvy with his methods to attack, it could work.

One thing also to mention - one of Vogel's assistants is from Miami when they had the Wade/James/Bosh combination that went to 4 NBA Finals/2 championships.
While I think it would be interesting - Beal didn't come to Phx to play with the bench - once Beal is back (for lack of a better word) this ish is on - best offense in the league 100%
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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After a slow 4-6 start where the Suns have had a lot of injuries, they're now about where most thought they could be (top 4-5 in the West). What's interesting is they have done this all without the Durant/Book/Beal playing a game together, and in fact the tally is:

Book/Durant 6-1
Durant/Beal 1-2
Book only 1-0
Durant only 2-7

The role players around these guys are starting to get accustomed to their roles making some impact.

Some role players that should get mention:
Nurkic has a +6.9 NET (Offense-Defense=NET) rating in 27 min a game
Goodwin has a +7.8 NET rating in 15 min a game (99 defensive rating which is elite)
Gordon has a +4.7 NET rating in 31 min a game (120 offense rating)
Eubanks has a +4.2 NET rating in 18 min
Allen has a +2.5 NET rating in 32 min a game

Gonna give Vogel credit here. He didn't panic after the slow start and when the injuries have hit he has remained behind his role players and rotations. And now the team is making plays and executing plays more consistently.
Your records aren’t correct. That would put them at 10-10.
 

1982baskets

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^
That only happens if Beal fits in. Based on the 3 games I saw Beal play, he's rushing to get to the basket, a little careless with the ball and definitely covets handling the ball. How will they share the ball yet keep the same level of impact from KD/Book?

Right now Book's usage rate is at 34% highest of his career. Durant is using the ball at 33%, higher than the 26% he was at last year with the Suns. For this to work, Beal will need to shift his focus on 3 point shooting, defense and a lot of higher IQ playmaking. Based on what I've seen of Beal, he's a volume scorer that can go off big time (Sort of like a much much better version of Eric Gordon). To me, that screams a player that will fit in better coming off the bench. Obviously I hope I'm wrong!
 

DJ Tabooh

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While I think it would be interesting - Beal didn't come to Phx to play with the bench - once Beal is back (for lack of a better word) this ish is on - best offense in the league 100%
I’m curious to see how Vogel staggers the big 3 once Beal gets going again…hopefully before Christmas but we shall see.

Beal does have a tendency to over dribble but if he has Book or KD out there, I hope he focuses on just making the right play whether it’s an iso opportunity or kicking it to the open guy.
 

BirdGangThing

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I’m curious to see how Vogel staggers the big 3 once Beal gets going again…hopefully before Christmas but we shall see.

Beal does have a tendency to over dribble but if he has Book or KD out there, I hope he focuses on just making the right play whether it’s an iso opportunity or kicking it to the open guy.
I think Beal maybe feels he has to show out and prove he's on Book or KD's level - but he really doesn't - his job should literally be two or three times as easy here in Phx - at least when all 3 are on the court
 

1982baskets

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I think Beal maybe feels he has to show out and prove he's on Book or KD's level - but he really doesn't - his job should literally be two or three times as easy here in Phx - at least when all 3 are on the court
Agreed. Question will be would he settle into that third option role who has to focus on defense? He has the athleticism and tools to be a solid defender. In theory he's taking Gordon's spot/current role. Gordon is not good defensively (116 DEF rating) but an asset on offense (120). If he just takes Gordon's spot, and does something with it, he can be significant impact. However based on the three games I saw, he was pushing it, rushing it, trying to showcase himself a bit. Maybe with many games under his belt he will begin to settle in, something he didn't get a chance to do with only 3 games. I see potential with Booker, Allen, Beal, Durant. They can play better defense than with Gordon in there and are even more potent on paper. But, the main thing will be whether Beal accepts his usage rate and all that will be much diffferent than in Washington. He can not force it.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I think Beal maybe feels he has to show out and prove he's on Book or KD's level - but he really doesn't - his job should literally be two or three times as easy here in Phx - at least when all 3 are on the court
I don’t buy this. If he was a young guy, maybe. But this is a long established star in the league.

What I’m excited about getting the three together is freeing book up a little. It feels like he’s having to work so hard as the on the ball guy. What Paul did for book was give him excellent catch and shoot opportunities. And while neither beal nor KD are Chris Paul, their respective gravities alone should allow for much better shot opportunities for book.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Agreed. Question will be would he settle into that third option role who has to focus on defense? He has the athleticism and tools to be a solid defender. In theory he's taking Gordon's spot/current role. Gordon is not good defensively (116 DEF rating) but an asset on offense (120). If he just takes Gordon's spot, and does something with it, he can be significant impact. However based on the three games I saw, he was pushing it, rushing it, trying to showcase himself a bit. Maybe with many games under his belt he will begin to settle in, something he didn't get a chance to do with only 3 games. I see potential with Booker, Allen, Beal, Durant. They can play better defense than with Gordon in there and are even more potent on paper. But, the main thing will be whether Beal accepts his usage rate and all that will be much diffferent than in Washington. He can not force it.
I don’t think beal was 100% back to health yet. He didn’t move fluidly. And he didn’t get to play with book. I can easily see him settling into a ray allen role where he’s just the beneficiary of some really good looks and takes over the floor when running with bench guys or if kd or book are having an off night.
 

Yuma

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The announcers made some reference to point differential being used in Europe, but I didn't catch it all.

Perhaps they use it in another sport like soccer?
They use it in soccer, where there isn't that many goals scored. Also, they all play the games at the same time. Especially the last game of the tournament. All teams play at once so no one has the advantage of knowing what to do. It also some years makes for one wild day of games, where teams are in and out of the tournament as scores change.
 

Yuma

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I got just the flu and covid together once and felt like dog poo the next day
I slept in until 2 PM today. Arm is ok where I got all three shots. A little bit of a headache. Constant peeing. Trying to rehydrate.
 

Yuma

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Typical. I was just waiting for the bad news that Durant would be out. He's had to step up big-time because of the surprising injuries on Book and Beal, so off course, that old slim reaper body will not hold up to all that wear and tear.

"Vogel didn't think Durant's minutes factored into this. 2nd in NBA in total played."

Great. A coach with real insight to sports and the NBA. Just great.
My conspiracy theory is the Suns will not play the big three together until the playoffs. That way teams don't develop a strategy against us. Just figured they would play two or one of them at a time all season.
 

Yuma

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I don’t think beal was 100% back to health yet. He didn’t move fluidly. And he didn’t get to play with book. I can easily see him settling into a ray allen role where he’s just the beneficiary of some really good looks and takes over the floor when running with bench guys or if kd or book are having an off night.
Oh, and he can really drive and finish in the lane. Anyone running out on him will be passed by easily.
 

Yuma

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I don’t buy this. If he was a young guy, maybe. But this is a long established star in the league.

What I’m excited about getting the three together is freeing book up a little. It feels like he’s having to work so hard as the on the ball guy. What Paul did for book was give him excellent catch and shoot opportunities. And while neither beal nor KD are Chris Paul, their respective gravities alone should allow for much better shot opportunities for book.
Plus, Nurkic and Eubanks have set Book up on passes, too. We will be strong on assists this year. Last year we couldn't get to the fire throw line. I think they said we are the top team taking free throws now. That will keep us in lots of games.
 

Dback Jon

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They use it in soccer, where there isn't that many goals scored. Also, they all play the games at the same time. Especially the last game of the tournament. All teams play at once so no one has the advantage of knowing what to do. It also some years makes for one wild day of games, where teams are in and out of the tournament as scores change.
Wish they would have done all the game fours at the same time
 

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