Suns fire McD

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

From 2011. Sarver was/is a terrible owner? News flash! We all know that! What we don’t know is if the last five years continued that trend because nobody reported anything other than he indeed stepped back and learned not to be what you say he is.

Missed the point of quoting that completely.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I thought Woj was fair in that report, just inaccurate. It's almost the same thing Simmons said and both have been proved wrong, at least in part. But Woj has never been the Sarver critic that he has become since joining ESPN (and Amin).

I don't have an Amin-cabal theory. I have no life so I watch this crap regularly. I see it, I hear it and it's like water is wet, it's that obvious. I wasn't the first to notice it but once it was called to my attention it has been incredibly obvious.

Steve let me hold your tinfoil for a bit . . .

 

[Cheesebeef]

Steve let me hold your tinfoil for a bit . . .

dude... don't bother.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

For some reason, you are accusing us of attacking Woj’s credibility—we’re not. We are questioning the validity of a single tweet that reinforces a story that was last reported on 6 years ago. How can you NOT be sceptical of it? It’s not the man, it’s the story that’s in question here.

It’s the same reasoning everyone in this board is using without Woj’s tweet. “Sarver was so awful 6 years ago, so he might as well be the same now! Even though there has been little proof of it for the last 5 years.”

Woj is allowed to get things wrong from time to time. (Except when it’s about the Suns of course. And negative about the Suns. Then he tells the truth 100% of the time, whether he has evidence or not.)

I simply don’t use a single tweet from him as the end all and be all of sports reporting.

No, it’s the fact that when someone’s personality has been proven in the past, what’s more likely accurate the fact that he and his employee at the time says he’s changed or the potential that he’s still the same in light of a relatively trustworthy league reporter stating he’s the same? Ignore what’s sitting right in front of you at your own peril.

If Ryan doesn’t get another job with a team in the near future I suspect he will start to provide more insight into the realities of working with Sarver.

I don’t think Sarver is a problem for players. None have said he is. I think he’s likely still a meddlesome owner that’s difficult for coaches and gms to work with. Sounds about right.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Steve let me hold your tinfoil for a bit . . .

I first heard about his Sarver attacks on a Facebook Suns group. Then, I ran into it a few times on RealGM. At the time, I didn't even know who Amin was. But I did what they suggested, I listened to his podcast (with Windhorst) and then I started watching the Jump. I swear, he makes it sound like he was a key decision maker and he tells Sarver related stories that would make you think he (Amin) was all but running the show. And those stories and opinions are then circulated by the people I named earlier. I don't know how else to look at it.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So you took my comment to mean that Woj had never once said anything negative about Sarver? That wasn't my point and I find it difficult to believe you thought it was. Here's my earlier quote:

I thought it was too. You’re argument certainly seemed to be “woj’s opinions are just the fruit of amin’s poisonous tree, so they should be disregarded”

 

[AzStevenCal]

I thought it was too. You’re argument certainly seemed to be “woj’s opinions are just the fruit of amin’s poisonous tree, so they should be disregarded”

I think he's been influenced by Amin. To what degree, I have no clue. He's one of the few that I pay much attention to so his comments do have me concerned.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I first heard about his Sarver attacks on a Facebook Suns group. Then, I ran into it a few times on RealGM. At the time, I didn't even know who Amin was. But I did what they suggested, I listened to his podcast (with Windhorst) and then I started watching the Jump. I swear, he makes it sound like he was a key decision maker and he tells Sarver related stories that would make you think he (Amin) was all but running the show. And those stories and opinions are then circulated by the people I named earlier. I don't know how else to look at it.

I’m not disputing what you’ve learned about Amin. I’m saying you’ve wandered off the reservation if you think every reporter at ESPN takes his word as gospel and has no other sources for their claims. Good journalists (which woj is renowned to be) just don’t do that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think he's been influenced by Amin. To what degree, I have no clue. He's one of the few that I pay much attention to so his comments do have me concerned.

That’s where we are in a crux. Cheese and I just happen to maybe believe a little more strongly in the leopards don’t change their spots theory than the self-serving or self-preservation (in the case of a then employee Ryan McD) I’ve completely changed my personality theory.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I’m not disputing what you’ve learned about Amin. I’m saying you’ve wandered off the reservation if you think every reporter at ESPN takes his word as gospel and has no other sources for their claims. Good journalists (which woj is renowned to be) just don’t do that.

I don't believe that and if I've come across that way, I've come across poorly. I believe he has influenced many of them, including Woj. I don't think they are all mindless robots following Amin's orders. And I'm quite sure if Sarver ever gives them a clear reason to support him, many of them will.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't believe that and if I've come across that way, I've come across poorly. I believe he has influenced many of them, including Woj. I don't think they are all mindless robots following Amin's orders. And I'm quite sure if Sarver ever gives them a clear reason to support him, many of them will.

I agree with you for the most part. In the case of Amin and Woj, it's hard to remain impartial and unbiased when someone is in your ear every time that anything that can be viewed negatively about an organization has the negative reinforced by a trusted colleague. Woj may get a piece about the Suns, say Watson's firing, and when he's talking with his peers at ESPN, one of them spins it in the worst possible way to point all fingers at Sarver for the disaster that was Earl Watson as head coach. Perhaps Woj didn't see it that way but it's hard for him to ignore when it's a colleague who does help you out on other things around the league.

I don't think it's hard to believe that one of Woj's co-workers constantly bashes a team and it's owner enough that eventually Woj starts viewing that team similarly. Amin suggesting it's Sarver's fault alone could cause Woj to look into that and there are plenty of people willing to rip Sarver whenever his name is brought up. So while he's trying to see if there is any fire behind the smoke that Amin is creating, all he gets are people ready to bash Sarver. It reinforces the negative when there wasn't one to begin with. Over time it just becomes, "Sarver is to blame for everything bad with the Suns. Everything good that happens is dumb luck".

That line of thinking is also echoed here, not just with Sarver but it was also done with McD. Rather than give him credit for some good picks like Booker and Warren, people will spin it how that's where they were projected to go so it really wasn't McD's scouting so much as him following the media. No credit is given to him for the pick even though part of the reason a player like Booker was projected to go to the Suns at that point is because that's the way the Suns were leaning and the people who create the mock drafts use that as a reason to place him where the Suns pick.

 

[Phrazbit]

I absolutely think Amin has an axe to grind. He's a hack, the Suns let him go, he acts like he is a brilliant basketball mind but he hasn't had another job in the league since the Suns let him go and I kinda doubt his "4th alternate on around the Horn" is enough of a windfall for him to be choosy.

However... I cannot imagine why Woj has an axe to grind. And the reports of him being in the background of calls and vetoing draft day trades is absolutely NOT old news.

I'd hoped Sarver had turned a corner but IMO he is as meddlesome as ever.

But... good news. I also think we've got a top 5 shooting guard and a guy who will rapidly become a top 5 big man and both are locked in for the next 4-5 years. We could have the most incompetent ownership and front office in the league and still be a contender in a couple years. Hell, IMO the Cavs are ran even worse than we are and they won a title!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree with you for the most part. In the case of Amin and Woj, it's hard to remain impartial and unbiased when someone is in your ear every time that anything that can be viewed negatively about an organization has the negative reinforced by a trusted colleague. Woj may get a piece about the Suns, say Watson's firing, and when he's talking with his peers at ESPN, one of them spins it in the worst possible way to point all fingers at Sarver for the disaster that was Earl Watson as head coach. Perhaps Woj didn't see it that way but it's hard for him to ignore when it's a colleague who does help you out on other things around the league.

I don't think it's hard to believe that one of Woj's co-workers constantly bashes a team and it's owner enough that eventually Woj starts viewing that team similarly. Amin suggesting it's Sarver's fault alone could cause Woj to look into that and there are plenty of people willing to rip Sarver whenever his name is brought up. So while he's trying to see if there is any fire behind the smoke that Amin is creating, all he gets are people ready to bash Sarver. It reinforces the negative when there wasn't one to begin with. Over time it just becomes, "Sarver is to blame for everything bad with the Suns. Everything good that happens is dumb luck".

That line of thinking is also echoed here, not just with Sarver but it was also done with McD. Rather than give him credit for some good picks like Booker and Warren, people will spin it how that's where they were projected to go so it really wasn't McD's scouting so much as him following the media. No credit is given to him for the pick even though part of the reason a player like Booker was projected to go to the Suns at that point is because that's the way the Suns were leaning and the people who create the mock drafts use that as a reason to place him where the Suns pick.

Ah see I think you’re ignoring or overlooking the contrary evidence here.

First despite some people repeating things over and over on here most people haven’t changed their thoughts. They haven’t been influenced by those making repeated efforts to sway other posters. So why would woj be more prone to that?

And to take it a step further, I would say most people on this board actually recognize an agenda fairly quickly and thus tend to discount the words of those who seemingly drone on in the same line of discourse consistently. Are you saying that woj has less mental facilities to recognize amin’s apparent vendetta against Sarver and adjust accordingly? Particularly in light of the fact that he obviously has many other unbiased sources throughout the league through which he can run thoughts and allegations?

 

[elindholm]

Good journalists (which woj is renowned to be) just don’t do that.

I keep reading on this board that Wojnarowski has a great reputation as a hard-hitting, responsible journalist. What's the evidence for that? My default opinion is that nearly all of these guys are hacks who make up stories based on half-rumors and pretty much recycle each other's BS. What sets Wojnarowski apart?

 

[SirStefan32]

I keep reading on this board that Wojnarowski has a great reputation as a hard-hitting, responsible journalist. What's the evidence for that? My default opinion is that nearly all of these guys are hacks who make up stories based on half-rumors and pretty much recycle each other's BS. What sets Wojnarowski apart?

Woj is typically right when it comes to trades. Maybe my perception is wrong, but if you hear something from Woj regarding a trade, it is probably true. He definitely has some connections. I would disagree that what I said makes him a "hard-hitting" journalist, but I would consider him a good sports reporter.

 

[Folster]

Woj is typically right when it comes to trades. Maybe my perception is wrong, but if you hear something from Woj regarding a trade, it is probably true. He definitely has some connections. I would disagree that what I said makes him a "hard-hitting" journalist, but I would consider him a good sports reporter.

He's accurate on trades because he gets looped in by agents and GMs after trades have already been agreed upon, minutes or hours before they are announced.

They don't give him this information for free. He is like Lord Varys, the spider, from Game of Thrones. He gets fed info by people with an agenda and exchanges it for further information which is power.

 

[Hoop Head]

Ah see I think you’re ignoring or overlooking the contrary evidence here.

First despite some people repeating things over and over on here most people haven’t changed their thoughts. They haven’t been influenced by those making repeated efforts to sway other posters. So why would woj be more prone to that?

And to take it a step further, I would say most people on this board actually recognize an agenda fairly quickly and thus tend to discount the words of those who seemingly drone on in the same line of discourse consistently. Are you saying that woj has less mental facilities to recognize amin’s apparent vendetta against Sarver and adjust accordingly? Particularly in light of the fact that he obviously has many other unbiased sources throughout the league through which he can run thoughts and allegations?

We are fans that follow the Suns closely, Woj is someone who follows the entire NBA close because it's his job. I'm sure he's a fan of the sport as well but he needs to keep up with all 30 teams. When he hears something negative from Sarver from a colleague and decides to look into it more there is no shortage of people who will bash Sarver. Even if he thinks Amin has an agenda, when he's getting pieces corroborated then why would he continue double checking what Amin tells him? He doesn't have time to do that with all the stuff he gets. It's not really irresponsible to start taking things at factual that Amin tells him because he's learned to treat him as a trusted source.

That said I don't think Woj has a big axe to grind with the Suns but I do find it a bit odd how he didn't say anything about Sarver meddling under the McD regime but the second that McD is fired, he hops on that train. That seems odd.

I'm probably in between the 2 parties here in this particular disagreement. I can see both sides and believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The meddling was happening but not nearly to the extent it was under previous regimes. I also think Woj being at ESPN has probably influenced how he views the Suns and Sarver some also because of guys like Amin.

I also think the meddling increased with our downward spiral. McD had a great first year here but it was all luck, it shouldn't have been good. He tried building on that but couldn't and as we got worse, Sarver started wondering what was going on and was getting more involved after initially taking a backseat. I can see why he would get more involved also but since he's a dunce when it comes to basketball, I would much rather he keep his distance. McD brought this on himself and I don't think how Woj or anyone reports it matters that much. We're moving on as a team and I hope things get better because with Ayton and Booker, we have the chance to be really special in the next 3-4 years, even with a ******* for an owner.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I keep reading on this board that Wojnarowski has a great reputation as a hard-hitting, responsible journalist. What's the evidence for that? My default opinion is that nearly all of these guys are hacks who make up stories based on half-rumors and pretty much recycle each other's BS. What sets Wojnarowski apart?

Do you believe that journalism is all BS? I mean this is these guys profession. What makes you assume none of them put in any effort or desire to be reputable? Weird stance.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That said I don't think Woj has a big axe to grind with the Suns but I do find it a bit odd how he didn't say anything about Sarver meddling under the McD regime but the second that McD is fired, he hops on that train. That seems odd.

I don’t think it’s odd at all. What’s more odd:

Reporting a meddling owner of a relatively insignificant team; or

Reporting of a meddling owner in the wake of his firing his GM?

Timing seems right not odd.

 

[Hoop Head]

Do you believe that journalism is all BS? I mean this is these guys profession. What makes you assume none of them put in any effort or desire to be reputable? Weird stance.

I don't think anyone is saying journalism is BS. Asking what sets Woj a tier above everyone else is a fair question and him being in a tier above your average basketball journalist is something that's been expressed by some people here. It hasn't been worded that way but saying he's one of the most respected journalists does paint him above a lot of his colleagues. So why should Woj's word carry more weight than Amin, Bill Simmons, Brian Windhorst, or Zach Lowe, for example?

 

[slinslin]

Do you believe that journalism is all BS? I mean this is these guys profession. What makes you assume none of them put in any effort or desire to be reputable? Weird stance.

sports journalism is defintiely BS

there is no investigative research being done

Zach Lowe for instance is just a blogger dude who writes opinion articles.

Woj is basically just passing along text messages.

 

[elindholm]

Do you believe that journalism is all BS? I mean this is these guys profession. What makes you assume none of them put in any effort or desire to be reputable? Weird stance.

I think that "journalists" whose main function is to stir the pot on social media are pretty much all BS, yes. Real journalists write articles that are carefully sourced and bring together a broad perspective in an insightful way. They aren't gossip columnists, a.k.a. Twitter warriors.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That said I don't think Woj has a big axe to grind with the Suns but I do find it a bit odd how he didn't say anything about Sarver meddling under the McD regime but the second that McD is fired, he hops on that train. That seems odd.

I don't think Woj has an axe to grind but the bolded part of your comment is what worries me the most about the recently released Sarver stories. If the increase in Sarver stories is coming from Ryan's camp, that means we really do still have a major problem with our owner.

 

[JCSunsfan]

sports journalism is defintiely BS

there is no investigative research being done

Zach Lower for instance is just a blogger dude who writes opinion articles.

Woj is basically just passing along text messages.

Totally agree Slin. There are very few true journalists in sports. Very few.

I have a friend who is in politics. His rule of thumb is the journalists are extremely lazy and whoever buys them a beer and feeds them the best story gets what he wants. He has made a career on that premise.

 

[taz02]

I thought I heard that Woj and McD were close.

I wonder if trading Chriss instead of Bender sealed McD's fate. That would explain the timing.