Suns fire McD

[Chaplin]

No? Here's a gem from Woj 2011 (long before his ESPN days) during the lockout:

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/10/07/robert-sarver-continues-to-take-heat-amare-stoudemires-rant/

"I think Sarver's been the most difficult and has been really the last couple years of this thing. I quoted an ownership source the other day in story that he talks so much and says so many outlandish things in these meetings (that) people tune him out. You know him in Phoenix, he can erode his credibility just by opening his mouth. While he is the hardest line of the hard-liners, he is not going to dictate where this goes. He led the charge on wanting the hard cap, on wanting to get rid of the mid-level exception, but at the end of the day, he is not a powerful voice in that room. He’s one of the last owners in. He’s probably one of the least wealthy owners. And he’s probably one of the owners who really have to honest look at whether he should really own an NBA team. Does he have the wealth to really do it and do it right . . . I do think guys like Sarver are willing to lose the whole season."

No one writer out there needs to poison the Suns well. Sarver's done that all on his own for eons.

From 2011. Sarver was/is a terrible owner? News flash! We all know that! What we don’t know is if the last five years continued that trend because nobody reported anything other than he indeed stepped back and learned not to be what you say he is.

 

[AzStevenCal]

No? Here's a gem from Woj 2011 (long before his ESPN days) during the lockout:

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/10/07/robert-sarver-continues-to-take-heat-amare-stoudemires-rant/

"I think Sarver's been the most difficult and has been really the last couple years of this thing. I quoted an ownership source the other day in story that he talks so much and says so many outlandish things in these meetings (that) people tune him out. You know him in Phoenix, he can erode his credibility just by opening his mouth. While he is the hardest line of the hard-liners, he is not going to dictate where this goes. He led the charge on wanting the hard cap, on wanting to get rid of the mid-level exception, but at the end of the day, he is not a powerful voice in that room. He’s one of the last owners in. He’s probably one of the least wealthy owners. And he’s probably one of the owners who really have to honest look at whether he should really own an NBA team. Does he have the wealth to really do it and do it right . . . I do think guys like Sarver are willing to lose the whole season."

No one writer out there needs to poison the Suns well. Sarver's done that all on his own for eons.

And he wasn't in that room, none of the reporters were. You can tell from his comments where his information came from, the same big market teams that used Simmons to try and limit Sarver's influence. Sarver and Gilbert led the charge on controlling the cap and increasing the penalties for violations. It angered the big money organizations and they tried to make it seem like the season was going to be lost if Sarver had his way. It turned a lot of people against Sarver, including a lot of players, until Stern (who is most assuredly not a Sarver fan) acknowledged Robert's efforts and stated outright that the season would have been lost if it hadn't been for his efforts. That doesn't sound like someone who had no influence in those meetings.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And again, there hasn’t been any Sarver-specific reporting that he’s been terrible on over 5 years.

you mean besides reporting yesterday that again reinforces that he's been atrocious? You're acting like scores of journalists haven't come out with new information on him... literally yesterday... that says he's just as obnoxious as he's always been.

I know you don’t want to believe it but why does that not matter?

again... because we just got new reporting yesterday that he's been a major problem in the FO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

2011! You are citing something from 2011, dude!

yeah Stef...I showed that because Steve believes that Amin has poisoned the well over at ESPN and thus Woj might have been tainted by him, because Steve said he never remembered Woj ripping the Suns prior to going to ESPN.

So... I brought up the first example I found of Woj ripping him BEFORE he went to ESPN to show that Steve's Amin-cabal theory doesn't seem to be on firm ground since Woj was happy to shred Sarver before he and Amin started working together.

This really isn't that tough to understand guys.

 

[Cheesebeef]

From 2011. Sarver was/is a terrible owner? News flash! We all know that! What we don’t know is if the last five years continued that trend because nobody reported anything other than he indeed stepped back and learned not to be what you say he is.

Again... it was literally reported yesterday that he's still a massive problem. I'm not saying what he is... reporters who cover the sport are. they've been saying it repeatedly for over a decade and did so again yesterday.

And you're totally missing the point on the Woj quote. I pulled something from 2011 because Steve said he never remembered Woj slamming Sarver until he got to ESPN and Amin got his hooks into him. Thus, I brought up a really damning quote from Woj from BEFORE he and Amin worked together to poke a hole in the "everyone at ESPN hates the Suns and it's because of Amin" theory that I believe to be relatively unbelievable.

 

[AzStevenCal]

yeah Stef...I showed that because Steve believes that Amin has poisoned the well over at ESPN and thus Woj might have been tainted by him, because Steve said he never remembered Woj ripping the Suns prior to going to ESPN.

So... I brought up the first example I found of Woj ripping him BEFORE he went to ESPN to show that Steve's Amin-cabal theory doesn't seem to be on firm ground since Woj was happy to shred Sarver before he and Amin started working together.

This really isn't that tough to understand guys.

I thought Woj was fair in that report, just inaccurate. It's almost the same thing Simmons said and both have been proved wrong, at least in part. But Woj has never been the Sarver critic that he has become since joining ESPN (and Amin).

I don't have an Amin-cabal theory. I have no life so I watch this crap regularly. I see it, I hear it and it's like water is wet, it's that obvious. I wasn't the first to notice it but once it was called to my attention it has been incredibly obvious.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And he wasn't in that room, none of the reporters were. You can tell from his comments where his information came from, the same big market teams that used Simmons to try and limit Sarver's influence. Sarver and Gilbert led the charge on controlling the cap and increasing the penalties for violations. It angered the big money organizations and they tried to make it seem like the season was going to be lost if Sarver had his way. It turned a lot of people against Sarver, including a lot of players, until Stern (who is most assuredly not a Sarver fan) acknowledged Robert's efforts and stated outright that the season would have been lost if it hadn't been for his efforts. That doesn't sound like someone who had no influence in those meetings.

That's great and all Steve... but completely ignores YOUR point that Woj's credibility is suspect because he's now drinking from tainted water after working with Amin and that you didn't remember Woj ever bashing the Suns or Sarver before he got to ESPN. So... I posted something that refuted that.

Seriously guys... this really just isn't hard to understand and to be honest, I expect better of you Steve to complete gaslight the conversation and point that YOU made simply because someone showed you were wrong.

 

[SirStefan32]

That's great and all Steve... but completely ignores YOUR point that Woj's credibility is suspect because he's now drinking from tainted water after working with Amin and that you didn't remember Woj ever bashing the Suns or Sarver before he got to ESPN. So... I posted something that refuted that.

Seriously guys... this really just isn't hard to understand and to be honest, I expect better of you Steve to complete gaslight the conversation and point that YOU made simply because someone showed you were wrong.

We understand. You hate Sarver, you believe every report from seven years ago and every "anonymous source."
We simply look at different pieces of evidence and either reach a different conclusion, or say we don't know while looking at all of the evidence. He admitted he had issues like this, but said that changed. McD hasn't contradicted him, no players have contradicted him. He remains popular with the players. Igor came back to work him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I thought Woj was fair in that report, just inaccurate. It's almost the same thing Simmons said and both have been proved wrong, at least in part. But Woj has never been the Sarver critic that he has become since joining ESPN (and Amin).

He said Sarver should think about whether he should even be in the league. If that's not DAMNING criticism, I don't know what is.

I don't have an Amin-cabal theory. I have no life so I watch this crap regularly. I see it, I hear it and it's like water is wet, it's that obvious. I wasn't the first to notice it but once it was called to my attention it has been incredibly obvious.

ok.

 

[Chaplin]

That's great and all Steve... but completely ignores YOUR point that Woj's credibility is suspect because he's now drinking from tainted water after working with Amin and that you didn't remember Woj ever bashing the Suns or Sarver before he got to ESPN. So... I posted something that refuted that.

Seriously guys... this really just isn't hard to understand and to be honest, I expect better of you Steve to complete gaslight the conversation and point that YOU made simply because someone showed you were wrong.

For some reason, you are accusing us of attacking Woj’s credibility—we’re not. We are questioning the validity of a single tweet that reinforces a story that was last reported on 6 years ago. How can you NOT be sceptical of it? It’s not the man, it’s the story that’s in question here.

It’s the same reasoning everyone in this board is using without Woj’s tweet. “Sarver was so awful 6 years ago, so he might as well be the same now! Even though there has been little proof of it for the last 5 years.”

Woj is allowed to get things wrong from time to time. (Except when it’s about the Suns of course. And negative about the Suns. Then he tells the truth 100% of the time, whether he has evidence or not.)

I simply don’t use a single tweet from him as the end all and be all of sports reporting.

 

[Cheesebeef]

We understand. You hate Sarver, you believe every report from seven years ago and every "anonymous source."
We simply look at different pieces of evidence and either reach a different conclusion, or say we don't know while looking at all of the evidence. He admitted he had issues like this, but said that changed. McD hasn't contradicted him, no players have contradicted him. He remains popular with the players. Igor came back to work him.

you're just gas lighting at this point. It's not about believing the report or not believing it. Steve said Woj never bashed the Suns or Sarver until he got to ESPN and was tainted by Amin and I showed him Woj has had no problem slamming him for years before that.

It's that simple.

 

[Chaplin]

That's great and all Steve... but completely ignores YOUR point that Woj's credibility is suspect because he's now drinking from tainted water after working with Amin and that you didn't remember Woj ever bashing the Suns or Sarver before he got to ESPN. So... I posted something that refuted that.

Seriously guys... this really just isn't hard to understand and to be honest, I expect better of you Steve to complete gaslight the conversation and point that YOU made simply because someone showed you were wrong.

Thanks for the “I can’t believe you are all this stupid” positive reinforcement.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That's great and all Steve... but completely ignores YOUR point that Woj's credibility is suspect because he's now drinking from tainted water after working with Amin and that you didn't remember Woj ever bashing the Suns or Sarver before he got to ESPN. So... I posted something that refuted that.

Seriously guys... this really just isn't hard to understand and to be honest, I expect better of you Steve to complete gaslight the conversation and point that YOU made simply because someone showed you were wrong.

So you took my comment to mean that Woj had never once said anything negative about Sarver? That wasn't my point and I find it difficult to believe you thought it was. Here's my earlier quote:

And maybe I missed it but I'd never heard of him being particularly critical about the Suns or Sarver until he started hanging out with his ESPN peers.

 

[SirStefan32]

you're just gas lighting at this point. It's not about believing the report or not believing it. Steve said Woj never bashed the Suns or Sarver until he got to ESPN and was tainted by Amin and I showed him Woj has had no problem slamming him for years before that.

It's that simple.

Dude, we get it. We simply disagree.

 

[Cheesebeef]

For some reason, you are accusing us of attacking Woj’s credibility—we’re not. We are questioning the validity of a single tweet that reinforces a story that was last reported on 6 years ago. How can you NOT be sceptical of it? It’s not the man, it’s the story that’s in question here.

Because it comes from a reputable sources and it fits a pattern we've seen reported about Sarver many times during his tenure.

It’s the same reasoning everyone in this board is using without Woj’s tweet. “Sarver was so awful 6 years ago, so he might as well be the same now! Even though there has been little proof of it for the last 5 years.”

Woj is allowed to get things wrong from time to time. (Except when it’s about the Suns of course. And negative about the Suns. Then he tells the truth 100% of the time, whether he has evidence or not.)

I simply don’t use a single tweet from him as the end all and be all of sports reporting.

I don't either. I take years of watching us hire the cheapest coaches, cheapest GMs and years of Sarver meddling throughout his tenure here into account, so when one of the most respected news sources in the league reports something that makes sense, it's believable to me.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He said Sarver should think about whether he should even be in the league. If that's not DAMNING criticism, I don't know what is.

I thought it was a reasonable statement given the information he'd received at the time. It's not like we all haven't said and thought the exact same thing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So you took my comment to mean that Woj had never once said anything negative about Sarver? That wasn't my point and I find it difficult to believe you thought it was. Here's my earlier quote:

huh... in your quote you LITERALLY said "I'd never heard of him being particularly critical about the Suns or Sarver". Steve... words have meaning. When you say you NEVER... forget it. You're right. I'm wrong. Sarver isn't the problem. It's the damn fake news media that is.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't either. I take years of watching us hire the cheapest coaches, cheapest GMs and years of Sarver meddling throughout his tenure here into account, so when one of the most respected news sources in the league reports something that makes sense, it's believable to me.

I'd separate those things. Whether Sarver has stopped meddling is one thing but I don't think he's ever going to stop hiring cheaply. He and Dan Gilbert both agree that the money should go to the "celebrity" positions but the coaches and bean counters and such should be paid similar to their corresponding positions in business.

 

[Chaplin]

Because it comes from a reputable sources and it fits a pattern we've seen reported about Sarver many times during his tenure.



I don't either. I take years of watching us hire the cheapest coaches, cheapest GMs and years of Sarver meddling throughout his tenure here into account, so when one of the most respected news sources in the league reports something that makes sense, it's believable to me.

Are you now saying you never supported McD back when he was hired, and even for the first 2-3 years of his tenure?

I wanted him gone as much as you did, but I held out hope for quite some time.

 

[Yuma]

Look, Sarver is the owner. We can't change that. Might as well complain about cows not making chocolate milk if there going to give us milk to start with. We are fans of the Suns. They suck right now and we are all moaning about all aspects Suns. I get that. But complaining about Sarver having the team and meddling with it, serves no real purpose aside from just complaining. If I had a couple billion I would buy the Suns, and then I would meddle with them, because damn it, I bought them!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Are you now saying you never supported McD back when he was hired, and even for the first 2-3 years of his tenure?

I literally NEVER said that, but I guess it's time for the projection game into other people's arguments, so that's where my part of the conversation ends.

 

[1Sun]

Are you now saying you never supported McD back when he was hired, and even for the first 2-3 years of his tenure?

I wanted him gone as much as you did, but I held out hope for quite some time.

Even after the Earl Watson hiring fiasco?

 

[Chaplin]

I literally NEVER said that, but I guess it's time for the projection game into other people's arguments, so that's where my part of the conversation ends.

Jesus, you have CONSISTENTLY relied on bad reports about Sarver and how he hires bad GMs. That implies that when he hired McD, you thought it was a bad hire. I asked if that was the case--I didn't put words in your mouth, I ASKED A QUESTION. If you want to take your ball and go home, go right ahead, but make sure you're doing it for the right reason.

 

[Chaplin]

Even after the Earl Watson hiring fiasco?

That was only a couple years ago. I was against Watson when he was brought on as a consultant, knowing where it was going to go. But like James Jones now--you have no choice but to hope that what people are saying is correct. It wasn't back then, maybe it is now. We don't know.

Do you have other information? Was Watson brought in by Sarver? Or was he brought in by McD and simply approved by Sarver? I'm sure you know, right?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

2011! You are citing something from 2011, dude!

Uh yeah, purposefully. Someone said woj never said anything negative about Sarver until he was poisoned by Amin. So bingo, 2011 kinda refutes that, no? Cmon Stef, keep up.