Schefter (and others) on Von Miller

[Krangodnzr]

But the argument on Suggs was that he was too small to play DE in our 4-3. Miller is going to play a 3-4 OLB which makes his size less of an issue.

I sort of disagree with this. IMO it's imperative in a 3-4 that the outside guys be close to 260. You have less lineman, therefore having a 230 lbs LB is just way too small. And putting on 30 lbs. is pretty drastic; he also doesn't even look like he could add that kind of weight.

Suggs wasn't big enough for a 4-3 end, but he is big enough to play 3-4 OLB which is where he has played in the pros.

Suggs was just too talented to pass on when you consider our defense had set all time lows for sacks in the previous two seasons. I would hope we wouldn't make the same mistake with Miller. But, honestly, when it is all said and done, I wouldn't be surprised if he was gone by #5.

With guys like that, you find ways to move them around and turn them loose to make plays.

IMO Miller is the flavor of the moment, and that when the combine comes everyone will be talking about Quinn (who is close to 270) and Houston (260ish). I like both a lot more, especially considering that size for a OLB should be a premium for us since Calais and Dockett aren't especially big for 3-4 ends. If we draft Miller, we may add speed, but we'd be extremely susceptible to getting run over every week.

Quinn and Houston have had success as ends, which is where most 3-4 OLBs played first. Houston has been good as both an end and OLB. Quinn is just a freak; IMO he's going to be a much more complete player than Miller if his year off didn't affect him too much.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

He is about the same size as Joey Porter and I really don't consider Porter to be "smallish." I haven't seen too many A&M games, but his film looks pretty impressive. I wouldn't be against the pick, but I still think the team should roll the dice on Cam Newton.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Here is the list of Butkus Award Winners since 2000:

2010 - Von Miller, Texas A&M
2009 - Rolando McClain, Alabama
2008 - Aaron Curry, Wake Forest
2007 - James Laurinaitis, Ohio State University
2006 - Patrick Willis, Mississippi
2005 - Paul Posluszny, Penn State
2004 - Derrick Johnson, Texas
2003 - Teddy Lehman, Oklahoma
2002 - E. J. Henderson, Maryland
2001 - Rocky Calmus, Oklahoma
2000 - Dan Morgan, Miami

Seems like many on the list have done wll in the Pros; so that may be worth considering...

 

[Chopper0080]

Here is the list of Butkus Award Winners since 2000:

2010 - Von Miller, Texas A&M
2009 - Rolando McClain, Alabama
2008 - Aaron Curry, Wake Forest
2007 - James Laurinaitis, Ohio State University
2006 - Patrick Willis, Mississippi
2005 - Paul Posluszny, Penn State
2004 - Derrick Johnson, Texas
2003 - Teddy Lehman, Oklahoma
2002 - E. J. Henderson, Maryland
2001 - Rocky Calmus, Oklahoma
2000 - Dan Morgan, Miami

Seems like many on the list have done wll in the Pros; so that may be worth considering...

The success of the players on that list is very impressive.

 

[WildBB]

IMO Miller is the flavor of the moment, and that when the combine comes everyone will be talking about Quinn (who is close to 270) and Houston (260ish). I like both a lot more, especially considering that size for a OLB should be a premium for us since Calais and Dockett aren't especially big for 3-4 ends. If we draft Miller, we may add speed, but we'd be extremely susceptible to getting run over every week.

Quinn and Houston have had success as ends, which is where most 3-4 OLBs played first. Houston has been good as both an end and OLB. Quinn is just a freak; IMO he's going to be a much more complete player than Miller if his year off didn't affect him too much.

Agree 100%. We need a few old/new Steeler LB's. We need to add some size, power and speed. Tenacity would help a bunch too.

I am very impressed with UAz. Brooks Reed, who brings much of the same package as Von Miller and can be had later. He will be a good pro. You can add those you talked about and add Kerrigan of Purdue to the mix for a mid 1st rounder if we can trade down, which i'm hoping we do.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Here is the list of Butkus Award Winners since 2000:

2010 - Von Miller, Texas A&M
2009 - Rolando McClain, Alabama
2008 - Aaron Curry, Wake Forest
2007 - James Laurinaitis, Ohio State University
2006 - Patrick Willis, Mississippi
2005 - Paul Posluszny, Penn State
2004 - Derrick Johnson, Texas
2003 - Teddy Lehman, Oklahoma
2002 - E. J. Henderson, Maryland
2001 - Rocky Calmus, Oklahoma
2000 - Dan Morgan, Miami

Seems like many on the list have done wll in the Pros; so that may be worth considering...

form that list I get, stay away from Oklahoma LB's. We gave Lance Mitchell a shot and he stunk too. Bosworth . I'm sure there has to be some successful LB's from Okie but none come to mind. I remember them having an OLB a few years ago that I really liked but he never did anything either. He may have had a knee injury thought. I looked it up, it was Rufus Alexander. Curtis Lofton is showing promise but looking at this list , they overall stink at putting LB's in the NFL. I wnet all the way back to 1972 and I don't know if there was even a #2 on the list. They are all journeymen or busts.
http://gnextinc.com/ou/nfldraftsooners.html

 

[Stout]

Suggs isn't 6'5". he is 6'2" -- but he is 260, so he is stout.

No, I'M Stout

 

[SuperSpck]

For what it's worth, "Von Miller" is a name that sounds like will be a success in the NFL. Jus' Sayin'.

+1
And if he's that fast and able to pick up coverages he could make a terrific prospect as a strong safety.

Von Miller stands on it's own. Giving him a nickname would be like putting the Mona Lisa in a neon frame.

Why hasn't this happened yet?!
SOMEONE GET ON IT.

I see Beal dropping to the end of the 2nd beginning of the 3rd after the combine. From what I have seen from him I believe that he is a better football player than athlete, and I would not be surprised if he struggled at the combine. He just isn't a player with great measurables and that can hurt the value of players, especially tweeners.

I would love it if he was around in the 3rd, and I think that he will be a solid NFL player at OLB in the 3-4.

Agreed on all points.

It's also nice to see Rough Draft back.

 

[Krangodnzr]

He is about the same size as Joey Porter and I really don't consider Porter to be "smallish." I haven't seen too many A&M games, but his film looks pretty impressive. I wouldn't be against the pick, but I still think the team should roll the dice on Cam Newton.

No, Jerry Porter is 10 lbs bigger, and he's considered a bit too smallish in his own right.

Miller probably could add 10 lbs., to be considered smallish. That's how small Miller is; he's considered tiny as a 3-4 OLB. IMO Miller is a WOLB, not an NFL 3-4 WOLB.

Richard Quinn and Justin Houston are the true 3-4 OLBs available near the top of the draft IMO.

 

[Buckybird]

I sort of disagree with this. IMO it's imperative in a 3-4 that the outside guys be close to 260. You have less lineman, therefore having a 230 lbs LB is just way too small. And putting on 30 lbs. is pretty drastic; he also doesn't even look like he could add that kind of weight.

Suggs wasn't big enough for a 4-3 end, but he is big enough to play 3-4 OLB which is where he has played in the pros.



IMO Miller is the flavor of the moment, and that when the combine comes everyone will be talking about Quinn (who is close to 270) and Houston (260ish). I like both a lot more, especially considering that size for a OLB should be a premium for us since Calais and Dockett aren't especially big for 3-4 ends. If we draft Miller, we may add speed, but we'd be extremely susceptible to getting run over every week.

Quinn and Houston have had success as ends, which is where most 3-4 OLBs played first. Houston has been good as both an end and OLB. Quinn is just a freak; IMO he's going to be a much more complete player than Miller if his year off didn't affect him too much.

I couldnt agree more Krang!!!

Adding Miller to an already suspect (size wise) DWash is a recipe for disaster IMO. People here tend to not look at the size or builds of the successful teams LB's in the 3-4, most notably the OLB's.

 

[Buckybird]

Here is the list of Butkus Award Winners since 2000:

2010 - Von Miller, Texas A&M
2009 - Rolando McClain, Alabama
2008 - Aaron Curry, Wake Forest
2007 - James Laurinaitis, Ohio State University
2006 - Patrick Willis, Mississippi
2005 - Paul Posluszny, Penn State
2004 - Derrick Johnson, Texas
2003 - Teddy Lehman, Oklahoma
2002 - E. J. Henderson, Maryland
2001 - Rocky Calmus, Oklahoma
2000 - Dan Morgan, Miami

Seems like many on the list have done wll in the Pros; so that may be worth considering...

Notice there's only 1 OLB on that list? IMO Curry hasn't lived up to the hype either. I know many of the 3-4 guys come out as DE's in college, but I will never be sold on Miller as a beastly NFL OLB, ever!!! This defense needs to get bigger at LB IMO, not smaller.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I couldnt agree more Krang!!!

Adding Miller to an already suspect (size wise) DWash is a recipe for disaster IMO. People here tend to not look at the size or builds of the successful teams LB's in the 3-4, most notably the OLB's.

Like I said earlier, 3-4 OLBs are generally running north of 250, usually around 260.

Miller is small even for a 4-3 LB. He's about the size of the undersized LB's the Cowboys used to employ in the 90's.

 

[Krangodnzr]

2010 - Von Miller, Texas A&M - ?
2009 - Rolando McClain, Alabama - decent young player
2008 - Aaron Curry, Wake Forest - so far a bust
2007 - James Laurinaitis, Ohio State - good young player
2006 - Patrick Willis, Mississippi - best at position IMO
2005 - Paul Posluszny, Penn State - good young, but injury prone player
2004 - Derrick Johnson, Texas - kind of a bust, never met expectations
2003 - Teddy Lehman, Oklahoma - bust
2002 - E. J. Henderson, Maryland - decent starter, but not great
2001 - Rocky Calmus, Oklahoma - bust
2000 - Dan Morgan, Miami - bust due to injuries

Decent list yes, but on further examination it really is quite inconclusive. For every good player on this list, there is a bust to match or player who never met the expectations. LB is one of those positions that you can find really good players later in the draft, but I wouldn't advocate that with the problems we've had defensively.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Notice there's only 1 OLB on that list? IMO Curry hasn't lived up to the hype either. I know many of the 3-4 guys come out as DE's in college, but I will never be sold on Miller as a beastly NFL OLB, ever!!! This defense needs to get bigger at LB IMO, not smaller.

"Ever" means that you won't let facts get in the way of your preconceived notions. Ok... fine...

 

[Crazy Canuck]

2010 - Von Miller, Texas A&M - ?
2009 - Rolando McClain, Alabama - decent young player
2008 - Aaron Curry, Wake Forest - so far a bust
2007 - James Laurinaitis, Ohio State - good young player
2006 - Patrick Willis, Mississippi - best at position IMO
2005 - Paul Posluszny, Penn State - good young, but injury prone player
2004 - Derrick Johnson, Texas - kind of a bust, never met expectations
2003 - Teddy Lehman, Oklahoma - bust
2002 - E. J. Henderson, Maryland - decent starter, but not great
2001 - Rocky Calmus, Oklahoma - bust
2000 - Dan Morgan, Miami - bust due to injuries

Decent list yes, but on further examination it really is quite inconclusive. For every good player on this list, there is a bust to match or player who never met the expectations. LB is one of those positions that you can find really good players later in the draft, but I wouldn't advocate that with the problems we've had defensively.

Derrick Johnson has come into his own, and had 121 tackles this year. And I can't see how anyone can use the term "bust" on a player like Curry who is 2 years in, and had 73 tackles this past season. Henderson is the heart of the Vikings "D". As you said, it is somewhat inconclusive but the pedigree of those who received the award in generally positive.

 

[rode kardinaal]

Pre senior bowl, the guy was listed at 243. Seems to me he worked out like a madman and lost some weight for the most important moments of his young career; senior bowl and combine, to up his draft stock and make some money. That means he's smart, can focus and is committed. Plus he gathered up the numbers at his somewhat higher weight, it's not like he came out of nowhere all of a sudden, he just solidified an already high stock to begin with.

Thing is, if he played at 243'ish during his college years, he's not that far off from a guy like Cameron Wake, who's listed at 250, but is also an inch taller (hey, every inch counts, says the mrs) .

My point, is he's a 10+ sacks per season guy like Wake is, i don't mind if he's small and is a liability in the run game. Just don't line him up at DRC's side of the field . Plus he's already familiar with playing standing up, dropping back in coverage, a lot of converted DE's never reach that point at all, no matter how much of a prospect they are.

Bring on Von Miller.

 

[187]

Here is the list of Butkus Award Winners since 2000:

2010 - Von Miller, Texas A&M
2009 - Rolando McClain, Alabama
2008 - Aaron Curry, Wake Forest
2007 - James Laurinaitis, Ohio State University
2006 - Patrick Willis, Mississippi
2005 - Paul Posluszny, Penn State
2004 - Derrick Johnson, Texas
2003 - Teddy Lehman, Oklahoma
2002 - E. J. Henderson, Maryland
2001 - Rocky Calmus, Oklahoma
2000 - Dan Morgan, Miami

Seems like many on the list have done wll in the Pros; so that may be worth considering...

And I don't think any of those guys projected as a 3-4 OLB in the NFL. I don't know about Lehman/Calmus/Morgan, but the rest all play either in a 4-3 somewhere or inside in a 3-4 and I think it is much easier to spot surefire studs in those positions (P-Willy, for instance). Although Aaron Curry has been an incredible bust considering his pre-draft hype and where he was taken in the draft, this guy was supposed to jump in and dominate from day 1.

 

[Buckybird]

And I don't think any of those guys projected as a 3-4 OLB in the NFL. I don't know about Lehman/Calmus/Morgan, but the rest all play either in a 4-3 somewhere or inside in a 3-4 and I think it is much easier to spot surefire studs in those positions (P-Willy, for instance). Although Aaron Curry has been an incredible bust considering his pre-draft hype and where he was taken in the draft, this guy was supposed to jump in and dominate from day 1.

didnt I just say the same things earlier in the thread?

 

[Buckybird]

Like I said earlier, 3-4 OLBs are generally running north of 250, usually around 260.

Miller is small even for a 4-3 LB. He's about the size of the undersized LB's the Cowboys used to employ in the 90's.

Yep, AW looks bigger than Miller & DWash & he plays SS.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

With the exception of Woodley at 260, the average weight of the Pitt LB corps is 240.

 

[Buckybird]

With the exception of Woodley at 260, the average weight of the Pitt LB corps is 240.

IMO, the differance is legs which plays a factor in leverage on runs plays. I just look at the successful 3-4 teams & the're LB corp seemed to be thicker guys than what we have. Thats exactly a reason why Wiz & Co went to a 4 man DLine late in the year because of our "stickmen defenders" because we couldn't defend the run.

 

[Chopper0080]

IMO, the differance is legs which plays a factor in leverage on runs plays. I just look at the successful 3-4 teams & the're LB corp seemed to be thicker guys than what we have. Thats exactly a reason why Wiz & Co went to a 4 man DLine late in the year because of our "stickmen defenders" because we couldn't defend the run.

The actual difference is that Pitt's d line occupies blockers while our defensive line shoots gaps. That is why our linebackers get consumed by offensive linemen and Pitt's do not. The only way to counter this is to get really big linebackers that can take on linemen, but that leaves at a tremendous disadvantage in the passing game.

I get the concern about Von Miller's size and how he can get overmatched against the run, but in my opinion it is a moot point. You don't draft a player with Von Miller's speed to have him stonewall linemen, shed blocks, and make tackles AT the line of scrimmage. You draft Von Miller to run around blocks, disrupt plays, and make plays BEHIND the line of scrimmage.

As a defensive coordinator I can develop schemes to Miller's side if I need to stop the run, but I can't generate the speed and plays that he makes behind the line of scrimmage with a scheme. If Dwight Freeney can be a Pro Bowler as a 4-3 DE at his size, then Von Miller sure as hell can be a Pro Bowler as a 3-4 OLB at his. Miller's success will have more to do with how hard he works than how big he is, specifically in our scheme.

 

[Duckjake]

The actual difference is that Pitt's d line occupies blockers while our defensive line shoots gaps. That is why our linebackers get consumed by offensive linemen and Pitt's do not. The only way to counter this is to get really big linebackers that can take on linemen, but that leaves at a tremendous disadvantage in the passing game.

I get the concern about Von Miller's size and how he can get overmatched against the run, but in my opinion it is a moot point. You don't draft a player with Von Miller's speed to have him stonewall linemen, shed blocks, and make tackles AT the line of scrimmage. You draft Von Miller to run around blocks, disrupt plays, and make plays BEHIND the line of scrimmage.

As a defensive coordinator I can develop schemes to Miller's side if I need to stop the run, but I can't generate the speed and plays that he makes behind the line of scrimmage with a scheme. If Dwight Freeney can be a Pro Bowler as a 4-3 DE at his size, then Von Miller sure as hell can be a Pro Bowler as a 3-4 OLB at his. Miller's success will have more to do with how hard he works than how big he is, specifically in our scheme.

Miller might be able to be an All-Pro player in a 3-4 at his size.

The problem is that the Cards already have 4 guys that can't play strong against the run, DRC, Rhodes, Campbell and Washington. You add a small pass rusher like Miller to the Cards Defense and he'll never have a single sack in his career because no one will ever pass vs the Cards. They'll just line up and blow the D off the ball all the way into the end zone at 5.0 yards per carry.



Passing league or not.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Von miller is 6'3 243 and Porter is listed on Cards site as 6'3 248. Five pounds is five pounds, but they are basically the same size.8

 

[Chopper0080]

Miller might be able to be an All-Pro player in a 3-4 at his size.

The problem is that the Cards already have 4 guys that can't play strong against the run, DRC, Rhodes, Campbell and Washington. You add a small pass rusher like Miller to the Cards Defense and he'll never have a single sack in his career because no one will ever pass vs the Cards. They'll just line up and blow the D off the ball all the way into the end zone at 5.0 yards per carry.



Passing league or not.

My point is that we don't run a traditional 3-4 defense because of how we play our DE's so why make it an issue. Even at his size he can set the edge outside, and even slip the pulling linemen to force the cutback. He can run down stretch play from the backside. He can get to the QB.

And if teams just run on us then they make Adrian Wilson a viable option again. As a person who has coached football, you can scheme to stop the run, but it is very difficult to scheme to generate pressure with a 4 man rush.