Robert Sarver is in Big Trouble (ANNOUNCES SALE PROCESS)

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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People on record is what I mean by documented evidence. My point was that we have no idea how many people are on record. Assuming it's just 2 or 3 is just as dumb as assuming it's 70. Nobody should be "buying into" either scenario. As I stated I can't see the ESPN legal team knowing that they are going to get their pants sued off potentially would allow this to fly without reviewing the sources of the report in the first place. That is just insane.

Also, I don't agree it's fair to see that at all. Just because they didn't provide a detailed list of everyone that provided any info doesn't mean anything. The article would have been a mile long and some people simply may not have wanted their names in the story to be published. I know if I made a statement, I would wait for investigators from the NBA to contact me but I sure as hell wouldn't want my name out there to get harassed either.

Assuming they would is falling into an old investigation ploy. When I was a fraud investigator, we often would throw around numbers or suggestions about witnesses or evidence without tipping our hat on what we really had because we know it could jeopardize further investigation.
Who assumed they would? Literally no one.

Also, you’re tipping hat again by saying the article would be a mile long - that only happens if it is a ton of people. You seem pretty convinced it’s a ton of people making negative statements.
 

Covert Rain

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Who assumed they would? Literally no one.

Also, you’re tipping hat again by saying the article would be a mile long - that only happens if it is a ton of people. You seem pretty convinced it’s a ton of people making negative statements.
No more than you are tipping your hat you believe people are buying into 70, therefore it must be a much lower number. I am not convinced of anything one way or the other. I am assuming the 70 number isn't made up. I personally believe 70 is a combination of people on record and people contacted. I think it's pretty safe to assume with a number that large it's not 2 or 3 people on record. I am sure it's much more. 70? No. I don't think it needs to be either. I don't care if it's 10 people on record if they all corroborate similar stories of racism and/or misogyny.

So yes, just listing all those contacted would make the article a mile long. I never said I believe they are all on record verses being contacted nor do I believe that. However, how incredibly stupid you would have to be to serve up on a platter everyone on your list so Sarver's legal team can sift through it, prepare or harass anyone while you know an investigation will be launched by the NBA.
 
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Phrazbit

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ESPN has retracted the Jalen Rose "Lazy N" story. Through Stephen A Smith, Rose is claiming he never meant to imply Sarver said that.

Took nearly a week for him to 'clear that up'. Pretty ridiculous.
 

sdscard4

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"The report has led to plenty of questions about the Suns organizational culture and sparked an NBA investigation into the matter, with some wondering if Sarver could be removed as owner similarly to Donald Sterling from the Clippers. Watson was one of 70 people interviewed for the story, but was among the few that were willing to speak on the record with their name attached."

An Earl Watson production...just as I thought. Notice the word 'few'
So we have Rose...Earl and Ryan M
Yeah no bitterness in any of this.
Uproxx has the article
 

sdscard4

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ESPN has retracted the Jalen Rose "Lazy N" story. Through Stephen A Smith, Rose is claiming he never meant to imply Sarver said that.

Took nearly a week for him to 'clear that up'. Pretty ridiculous.
This should be freaking investigated
Bunch of crap
 

Phrazbit

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This should be freaking investigated
Bunch of crap
Yeah, it takes a lot to make me feel sympathy for Sarver but that aspect of the story does it.

If Rose had immediately tried clear it up it would be one thing, but to throw out something that vile, knowing it was nonsense but taken very literally by all who heard it and then let it sit there for a week, disgusting. Not only that, but Rose hid behind a co-worker to issue the retraction, didn't have the time to clear the smear himself because he is "on vacation", meanwhile half the interviews I see him do he is clearly broadcasting from his phone.
 

Hoop Head

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Yeah, it takes a lot to make me feel sympathy for Sarver but that aspect of the story does it.

If Rose had immediately tried clear it up it would be one thing, but to throw out something that vile, knowing it was nonsense but taken very literally by all who heard it and then let it sit there for a week, disgusting. Not only that, but Rose hid behind a co-worker to issue the retraction, didn't have the time to clear the smear himself because he is "on vacation", meanwhile half the interviews I see him do he is clearly broadcasting from his phone.

Anyone who thinks ESPN's legal team dotted all i's and crossed all t's needs to look at how terribly they managed Jalen Rose's accusations.
 

boisesuns

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Not a sarver fan at all, but it's pretty obvious espn has some agendas in a lot of areas.
 

StreetTruckinTitan

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Anyone who thinks ESPN's legal team dotted all i's and crossed all t's needs to look at how terribly they managed Jalen Rose's accusations.
Mr. Rose and Co. are def going to be hit with a huge defamation suit for slandering Sarver on ESPN and letting it fester for a week before retracting. BIG mistake!
 

Hoop Head

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Mr. Rose and Co. are def going to be hit with a huge defamation suit for slandering Sarver on ESPN and letting it fester for a week before retracting. BIG mistake!

Almost sounds like a monkey paws sort of wish made by a Suns fan to rid the team of Sarver. Sarver no longer owns the Suns but he becomes a partial owner of ESPN, the place to go for Suns coverage.
 

Western Font

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I did that in my second pass and that’s where I came up with the potential for it to only be 6-10 (again, that’s NOT my claim). When references are vague enough it’s virtually impossible to determine with any certainty the actual range of numbers in play.
Right, but that doesn’t mean it’s a ploy to inflate the perception. It’s an inevitable consequence of anonymous sources, but an investigation like this can’t be done without offering a condition of anonymity.

As the NBA looks into this, more important than the 70 interviews as a gauge are the nearly 50 allegations and commentaries on Sarver and/or his executive team in the article. Some of them are likely from the same source but many of them are also stated as corroborated by multiple interviewees. And of those 50 items there are a few that would be huge if confirmed on their own.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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No more than you are tipping your hat you believe people are buying into 70, therefore it must be a much lower number. I am not convinced of anything one way or the other. I am assuming the 70 number isn't made up. I personally believe 70 is a combination of people on record and people contacted. I think it's pretty safe to assume with a number that large it's not 2 or 3 people on record. I am sure it's much more. 70? No. I don't think it needs to be either. I don't care if it's 10 people on record if they all corroborate similar stories of racism and/or misogyny.

So yes, just listing all those contacted would make the article a mile long. I never said I believe they are all on record verses being contacted nor do I believe that. However, how incredibly stupid you would have to be to serve up on a platter everyone on your list so Sarver's legal team can sift through it, prepare or harass anyone while you know an investigation will be launched by the NBA.
Lol your deductive reasoning is flat out terrible. There’s not a single statement I’ve made that points in any direction other than we have zero idea what the number could be. I get it, you think a lot of people came out against sarver. I think that’s possible but we actually have zero idea how many people due to how the article was written.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Mr. Rose and Co. are def going to be hit with a huge defamation suit for slandering Sarver on ESPN and letting it fester for a week before retracting. BIG mistake!
Yeah that’s not going to happen in all likelihood. It’s been retracted. Litigation is expensive and involved.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Right, but that doesn’t mean it’s a ploy to inflate the perception. It’s an inevitable consequence of anonymous sources, but an investigation like this can’t be done without offering a condition of anonymity.

As the NBA looks into this, more important than the 70 interviews as a gauge are the nearly 50 allegations and commentaries on Sarver and/or his executive team in the article. Some of them are likely from the same source but many of them are also stated as corroborated by multiple interviewees. And of those 50 items there are a few that would be huge if confirmed on their own.
If it wasn’t a ploy to inflate the perception why use the 70 number in the article at all?
 

AzStevenCal

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Yeah that’s not going to happen in all likelihood. It’s been retracted. Litigation is expensive and involved.
Not only that, as i've mentioned a few times he said it in a way that it could be taken as a hypothetical. It was still slimy on his part but we've seen a politician or two do the same thing without consequence probably for that same reason.
 

Western Font

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If it wasn’t a ploy to inflate the perception why use the 70 number in the article at all?
To establish the scope, as I said. The number of interviewees connected to the organization is crucial for credibility, especially for investigations that rely on anonymous sources. If the scope weren’t included people—especially the subject—would be even more likely to claim that it’s just hearsay from a few bitter individuals. Seventy interviews is a LOT.

A journalist or publication would always prefer named sources, and this story would be strengthened with more. But these investigations would barely exist if only named sources were possible.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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To establish the scope, as I said. The number of interviewees connected to the organization is crucial for credibility, especially for investigations that rely on anonymous sources. If the scope weren’t included people—especially the subject—would be even more likely to claim that it’s just hearsay from a few bitter individuals. Seventy interviews is a LOT.

A journalist or publication would always prefer named sources, and this story would be strengthened with more. But these investigations would barely exist if only named sources were possible.
It works against them if only a few of the 70 actually have something to add to the claims the article makes though. That potentially means that a vast majority of the people interviewed haven't heard anything of the nature from Sarver.
 

Western Font

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It works against them if only a few of the 70 actually have something to add to the claims the article makes though. That potentially means that a vast majority of the people interviewed haven't heard anything of the nature from Sarver.
It could, sure. This is just my guess, but based on the number of individuals supporting the claims in the article across different identifiers such as male, female, current employee, former employee, co-owner, executive, operations, and marketing, that it’s unlikely the vast majority of the 70 haven’t heard or witnessed anything.
 

AzStevenCal

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It could, sure. This is just my guess, but based on the number of individuals supporting the claims in the article across different identifiers such as male, female, current employee, former employee, co-owner, executive, operations, and marketing, that it’s unlikely the vast majority of the 70 haven’t heard or witnessed anything.
Considering that probably thousands of people have worked there in the past it would be surprising if there weren't at least 70 ex-employees available and willing to state that they were unhappy there and considered it to be a toxic work environment. If the 70 people interviewed all said they witnessed specific, egregious acts, that's different.
 

Mainstreet

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In regard to numbers, in the Baxter Holmes article at ESPN dated 11-4-2021, I noticed the words a "half-dozen" used twice and a "dozen" used twice.

Looking at the second paragraph below, this would seem to indicate more than 12 different different people mentioned at least one of the allegations.

Below are snippets from the article:


At least a half-dozen Suns staffers recounted to ESPN instances of Sarver hearing a story from a Black player and then using the same language when retelling it, down to the usage of the N-word.

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More than a dozen employees recalled Sarver making lewd comments in all-staff meetings, including discussing times when his wife would perform oral sex on him. Four former employees said that in several all-staff meetings Sarver claimed he needed to wear Magnum or extra-large condoms. Former employees said he asked players about their sex lives and the sexual prowess of their significant others.
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A current executive is among nearly a dozen who acknowledges seeking professional help to cope with anxiety, sleep loss and overall declining well-being working for the Suns.
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Although a few explored legal action, there were more who did not. Half a dozen former employees said they didn't pursue a lawsuit because they didn't have the financial resources for a legal battle to do so, or felt so worn down from their experience that they just wanted to move on.


 

Hoop Head

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Considering that probably thousands of people have worked there in the past it would be surprising if there weren't at least 70 ex-employees available and willing to state that they were unhappy there and considered it to be a toxic work environment. If the 70 people interviewed all said they witnessed specific, egregious acts, that's different.

When I looked a week or two back I found out the Suns employ roughly 550 people. I can't recall the source, it was just a basic Google search. Sarver has owned the team for 18 years. 70 interviewed is like 15% or so of their current workforce.

Take with those numbers what you will. I think it's fair to provide all information available which is why number of employees is important when claiming a certain number of them are disgruntled or that they may have witnessed something inappropriate. Who knows how many actually did witness something or were victims themselves though.
 

AzStevenCal

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In regard to numbers, in the Baxter Holmes article at ESPN dated 11-4-2021, I noticed the words a "half-dozen" used twice and a "dozen" used twice.

Looking at the second paragraph below, this would seem to indicate more than 12 different different people mentioned at least one of the allegations.

Below are snippets from the article:


At least a half-dozen Suns staffers recounted to ESPN instances of Sarver hearing a story from a Black player and then using the same language when retelling it, down to the usage of the N-word.

-------------------------------------------------------

More than a dozen employees recalled Sarver making lewd comments in all-staff meetings, including discussing times when his wife would perform oral sex on him. Four former employees said that in several all-staff meetings Sarver claimed he needed to wear Magnum or extra-large condoms. Former employees said he asked players about their sex lives and the sexual prowess of their significant others.
----------------------------------------------------------

A current executive is among nearly a dozen who acknowledges seeking professional help to cope with anxiety, sleep loss and overall declining well-being working for the Suns.
----------------------------------------------------------

Although a few explored legal action, there were more who did not. Half a dozen former employees said they didn't pursue a lawsuit because they didn't have the financial resources for a legal battle to do so, or felt so worn down from their experience that they just wanted to move on.


There doesn't appear to be one single incident that will do him in but hopefully, taken together it should be enough to force a change in management (including Sarver's position).
 

Mainstreet

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There doesn't appear to be one single incident that will do him in but hopefully, taken together it should be enough to force a change in management (including Sarver's position).

The NBA investigation into these allegations may be the single best opportunity for the NBA and the other owners of the Suns to replace Sarver. Also I think ESPN has played it's hand as well. If Sarver survives this, I don't think he is leaving until he decides to sell. No more aces to play.

I'm thinking the workplace environment allegations may be the best chance if it happens unless the players rebel for some reason but that would have probably happened if it were going to happen.

IMO, Sarver has made enough enemies over the years there is a lot of support to replace him. The question in my mind, do the allegations provide enough cover (justification) to do it? Cumulatively I think they do as well but it's not the smoking gun they wanted.
 

Mainstreet

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The NBA hired firm investigating the allegations against the Suns and Robert Sarver will arrive on Tuesday.


By Arizona Sports:

The NBA-hired firm investigating allegations against the Phoenix Suns and owner Robert Sarver will arrive in Arizona on Tuesday, reports Arizona Sports’ Dan Bickley.


Wachtell Lipton law firm, which has conducted workplace investigations of NBA teams for the league office in the past, will conduct the review of the Suns.



 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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To establish the scope, as I said. The number of interviewees connected to the organization is crucial for credibility, especially for investigations that rely on anonymous sources. If the scope weren’t included people—especially the subject—would be even more likely to claim that it’s just hearsay from a few bitter individuals. Seventy interviews is a LOT.

A journalist or publication would always prefer named sources, and this story would be strengthened with more. But these investigations would barely exist if only named sources were possible.
You’re focused too much on the “named sources” angle which I’m not even debating.

What do you think the “scope” is all about? You said it yourself, the number of interviewees is crucial for credibility. They use the number of interviewees to convince the reader it’s a lot of people making allegations. If they said “we interviewed 70 people and 10 made allegations” it would undercut the magnitude of the article. By throwing out the 70 and not stating how made accusations or corroboration they’re counting on the reader getting caught up in the 70 number. Heck we’ve seen a bunch of posters here anchor to that number incorrectly. It works. And it’s intentionally sensational.
 
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