PHO / MILWAUKEE idea...

[elindholm]

Well, the 2nd rounders are still of value because the team could sometimes profit from the rookie contract and the matching right. If someone like Boozer or Arenas fell through the crack, then a smart team could give them 2 year on min. plus 1 year team option, to gain Bird right.

They can do that just as easily with an undrafted player.

 

[cly2tw]

They can do that just as easily with an undrafted player.

True except for the right to match offers to an restricted FA.

 

[azirish]

This year there were six players who played more than 50 games and averaged over 10 minutes a game and only two on playoff teams. (None means there were no stats, either they stayed in Europe, were injured or cut).

31 White - 6 games
32 Novak - 35 games at 5.5 minutes
33 Solomon Jones - 28 games at 11.5 minutes
34 Davis - 31 games at 5.8 minutes
35 Tucker - none
36 Craig Smith - 82 games at 18.7 minutes (Wolves)
37 Bobby Jones - 44 games at 7.6 minutes
38 Perovic - none
39 Noel - 68 games at 11.6 minutes (Bucks)
40 Denham Brown - None
41 Augustine - 2 games
42 Daniel Gibson - 60 games at 16.5 minutes Really came on in the ECF (Cavs)
43 Vinicius - 13 games
44 Eliyihu - none
45 Johnson - 59 games at 12.8 minutes (Grizzlies)
46 Dee Brown - Good series against the Warriors, but only 9.2 minutes a game in 49 games
47 Milsap - 82 games at 18 minutes a game (Jazz)
48 Veremeenko - none
49 Powe - 63 games at 11.4 minutes (Celtics)
50 Hollins - 27 games at 6.9 minutes
51 Samb - none
52 Diaz - none
53 Halperin - none
54 Adams - 61 games at 8.1 minutes
55 Ugboaja - none
56 Bavcic - none
57 Mavrokefalidis - none
58 Pinnock - none
59 Markota - 30 games at 5.7
60 Blalock - 14 games at 11.9

 

[sharkman]

I might ask you the same question.
Early second round picks, yes. Not ones at the very end of the round.

Yup...I guess Ginobili (drafted at the end of round 2) turned out decent just to prove you wrong.

Since you're new to this board, I guess you've missed the previous dozen times that I've explained this. Yes, you can occasionally find a good player late in the second round, or even undrafted, of course. But that doesn't mean that the pick has any value. If a team has its eye on a player at the end of the draft, they can always just sign him as an undrafted rookie free agent.

Actually...I'm not new to this board....I posted here frequently under a different screen name years ago...but stopped posting while trying to build a magazine...and resurfaced with a new screen name when I finally had time to post again (beats trying to remember old screen names and passwords). BTW...Picks always have value....just because you say they don't doesn't make it true.

Take Ginobili. What difference does it make that the Spurs happened to hold the #57 pick? Was there another team ready to take Ginobili at #58?

Actually, the competition for second round picks and undrafted free agents is very competitive...and yes...many teams would have been in line to pick him...which again....is why second round picks are NOT worthless.

It's widely speculated that the league will do away with the second round altogether in a future CBA.

I call BS on this one...the second round is here to stay.

No one cares about the #59 pick in the upcoming draft.

No...YOU don't care about the #59 pick in the draft...every other GM in the League pays attention to every pick...and every draft prospect that goes undrafted...only the message board idiot claims to speak for "every" NBA team.

 

[dodie53]

ASFN - bringing happiness to its members on a daily basis

true true

 

[elindholm]

Yup...I guess Ginobili (drafted at the end of round 2) turned out decent just to prove you wrong.

You seem to have completely missed the point.

BTW...Picks always have value....just because you say they don't doesn't make it true.

But you've done nothing to refute my argument, or even indicate that you've understood it.

Actually, the competition for second round picks and undrafted free agents is very competitive

That's just completely false. You cannot provide a single example of a case where multiple teams had demonstrated interest in a player who was available at the end of the second round or after the draft.

...and yes...many teams would have been in line to pick him

Maybe your math skills are the problem. Do you know how many more draft picks there were after the Spurs took Ginobili in 1999? One. There was one pick left. So it simply isn't possible that "many teams" would have been in line to pick him. There was one other team who could have potentially picked him, and that was Utah, and they weren't going to.

I call BS on this one...the second round is here to stay.

http://archive.sportingnews.com/experts/sean-deveney/20040905.html end of the second paragraph.

I don't know whether the second round will be eliminated, but the discussion is out there.

every other GM in the League pays attention to every pick...and every draft prospect that goes undrafted

That's absurd. How do you define "prospect"? There are potentially hundreds of prospects in every draft, depending on how wide you cast the net.

When's the last time the Suns, for instance, took a serious look at an undrafted rookie free agent? If they were just dying to bring in more of these hot prospects, why didn't they?

only the message board idiot

Calling me names doesn't make you any more correct. I'm trying to be polite, but you are just flat out wrong about this.

 

[elindholm]

True except for the right to match offers to an restricted FA.

I don't believe there is any difference between second-round picks and undrafted rookies in this regard.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#36

Larry Coon makes no such distinction, unless I'm missing it. Do you have another source?

 

[azirish]

If memory serves, the issue with second rounders is that their money is charged against the MLE rather than being subject to Bird rights. This is why the Cavs couldn't match the Jazz offer for Boozer nor could the Warriors match the Arenas offer.

 

[elindholm]

If memory serves, the issue with second rounders is that their money is charged against the MLE rather than being subject to Bird rights. This is why the Cavs couldn't match the Jazz offer for Boozer nor could the Warriors match the Arenas offer.

You know, for someone who keeps sneering about how ignorant everyone else is, you really could stand to read Coon's CBA FAQ. Claiming to have superior knowledge and actually having it are two different things.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#19

Bird rights kick in after three years, generally speaking. There is no reason that a second-round pick or undrafted rookie can't be signed to a three-year deal. It's just almost never done.

Without Bird rights, a team must either have cap space or use one of their exceptions (most typically the MLE) in order to re-sign one of their free agents.

An "Early Bird" exception can be used after two years in order to re-sign the player up to 175% of his original salary. The new contract must be at least two years long.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#37

The new CBA has restricted the ability of teams to "steal away" RFAs from teams lacking cap space, as happened with Gilbert Arenas. Basically the first-year salary that can be offered is capped at MLE level, but the numbers are complicated.

However,

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#36

explains that restricted free agency applies to "veteran (i.e. non-rookie) free agents who have been in the league three or fewer seasons." So this would include both second-round picks and undrafted players.

 

[Ollie]

I don't believe there is any difference between second-round picks and undrafted rookies in this regard.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#36

Larry Coon makes no such distinction, unless I'm missing it. Do you have another source?

There's no difference. If the player qualifies for the early bird or non bird exception, his team is able to match any offer sheet, as long as the team has the money to do it.

If memory serves, the issue with second rounders is that their money is charged against the MLE rather than being subject to Bird rights. This is why the Cavs couldn't match the Jazz offer for Boozer nor could the Warriors match the Arenas offer.

That was not exactly the issue, but that point has been pretty much fixed with the new CBA (the 1st year salary in the offer sheet can't exceed the average salary and thus is matchable using the MLE or the early bird/non Bird exception )

 

[asudevil83]

Yup...I guess Ginobili (drafted at the end of round 2) turned out decent just to prove you wrong.



Actually...I'm not new to this board....I posted here frequently under a different screen name years ago...but stopped posting while trying to build a magazine...and resurfaced with a new screen name when I finally had time to post again (beats trying to remember old screen names and passwords). BTW...Picks always have value....just because you say they don't doesn't make it true.

Actually, the competition for second round picks and undrafted free agents is very competitive...and yes...many teams would have been in line to pick him...which again....is why second round picks are NOT worthless.

I call BS on this one...the second round is here to stay.

No...YOU don't care about the #59 pick in the draft...every other GM in the League pays attention to every pick...and every draft prospect that goes undrafted...only the message board idiot claims to speak for "every" NBA team.

what exactly could the #50-#59 picks get you in a trade?

NEXT TO NOTHING....that's why they hold relatively low to no value.

end of story.

 

[azirish]

You know, for someone who keeps sneering about how ignorant everyone else is, you really could stand to read Coon's CBA FAQ. Claiming to have superior knowledge and actually having it are two different things.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#19

Bird rights kick in after three years, generally speaking. There is no reason that a second-round pick or undrafted rookie can't be signed to a three-year deal. It's just almost never done.

Without Bird rights, a team must either have cap space or use one of their exceptions (most typically the MLE) in order to re-sign one of their free agents.

An "Early Bird" exception can be used after two years in order to re-sign the player up to 175% of his original salary. The new contract must be at least two years long.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#37

The new CBA has restricted the ability of teams to "steal away" RFAs from teams lacking cap space, as happened with Gilbert Arenas. Basically the first-year salary that can be offered is capped at MLE level, but the numbers are complicated.

However,

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#36

explains that restricted free agency applies to "veteran (i.e. non-rookie) free agents who have been in the league three or fewer seasons." So this would include both second-round picks and undrafted players.

I was not aware of the change in the CBA, so I'll admit my ignorance. I'm glad the change was made because the old rule was pretty stupid.