PFF on headcoaches

[PACardsFan]

Tomlin is a weird case cause he’s clearly not a bad HC, hence by the lack of losing seasons, but Pittsburgh hasn’t really done anything in over 10 years & they have had some really bad playoff losses(Tebow, Bortles) since then.

Tomlin is an average HC because he’s been outcoached by the superior teams his entire tenure.

 

[football karma]

Tomlin is a tough call-- no question a really good coach

i think he has benefitted from a top 5 NFL drafting front office and getting an established top 10 QB (back in the day).

thats a pretty good recipe for success

 

[kerouac9]

Tomlin is an average HC because he’s been outcoached by the superior teams his entire tenure.

Tomlin is a tough call-- no question a really good coach

i think he has benefitted from a top 5 NFL drafting front office and getting an established top 10 QB (back in the day).

thats a pretty good recipe for success

Yo... Dude has gone 15 years without once having a losing record. Only Bill Belicheck has a similar record.

It takes some pretty profound myopia driven by [who knows what] to assert that he's an "average head coach."

 

[football karma]

Yo... Dude has gone 15 years without once having a losing record. Only Bill Belicheck has a similar record.

It takes some pretty profound myopia driven by [who knows what] to assert that he's an "average head coach."

dont throw me in there

really good head coach + good FO + good QB is what you want

 

[football karma]

offhand observation on the analytics sites: PFF and FO

FO's analytics stuff is generally favorable on the Cards than their editorial stuff

PFFs analytics stuff is down on the Cards, but the editorial stuff is more favorable

 

[PACardsFan]

Yo... Dude has gone 15 years without once having a losing record. Only Bill Belicheck has a similar record.

It takes some pretty profound myopia driven by [who knows what] to assert that he's an "average head coach."

He's taken advantage of being in the same division with 2 of the crappiest teams in the NFL the past decade (Browns & Bengals). Dude cannot beat the better teams & better HC's, so yes, at best, he's an average to above average NFL HC. I live in Steeler country & NO ONE would argue the point I'm making. If he was in the NFCW, he'd have many losing records.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Yo... Dude has gone 15 years without once having a losing record. Only Bill Belicheck has a similar record.

It takes some pretty profound myopia driven by [who knows what] to assert that he's an "average head coach."

This. Some need to stop piling on Tomlin because they simply hate the Steelers, or hating those that have success and we have not

 

[kerouac9]

He's taken advantage of being in the same division with 2 of the crappiest teams in the NFL the past decade (Browns & Bengals). Dude cannot beat the better teams & better HC's, so yes, at best, he's an average to above average NFL HC. I live in Steeler country & NO ONE would argue the point I'm making. If he was in the NFCW, he'd have many losing records.

Yinzers have had complicated feelings about Mike Tomlin for his entire time there for reasons (one suspects) that are very unrelated to his on-field performance.

Tomlin is a hall of fame head coach and one of the five best in the league. If Steeltown can’t embrace him it says more about those fans than it does about Tomlin.

 

[cardncubfan]

The funny thing about this board, is you consistently see posters bemoan the lack of talent, "oh Keim totally sucks, the team lacks talent all through out," and then many posters talk about how terrible Kingsbury is....and then the cherry on top is they will also say that Kyler isn't the guy either.

So if you read some of these posters (not naming names) the team is essentially a 4 win team and everyone should be fired and Kyler should be traded

And yet, at one point the Cardinals were 10-2 and the best team in the NFL for essentially 6-7 weeks of the season, if not longer.

I personally think the team has some decent talent, Kingsbury is a pretty good coach when his offense is humming, and Kyler is a great QB when players around him can win some battles and get open.

For the first 13 weeks they had the best record.

 

[cardncubfan]

This is a great point. I'm guessing PFF would argue that their grades measure performance, not talent. And that the quality of the HC effects that performance.

Affect & effect. There is a difference. Just bustin your British huevos Brit.

 

[Stout]

Yo... Dude has gone 15 years without once having a losing record. Only Bill Belicheck has a similar record.

It takes some pretty profound myopia driven by [who knows what] to assert that he's an "average head coach."

Yeah, we shouldn't even be putting Kliffy in the same stadium.

 

[PACardsFan]

This. Some need to stop piling on Tomlin because they simply hate the Steelers, or hating those that have success and we have not

Take it from someone surrounded by Steeler fans, Tomlin is viewed at best as a slightly above average HC. What the Steelers have is a phenomenal organization & fan base. Chuck Noll was a great HC. Cowher was average, as is Tomlin.

 

[cardncubfan]

Yeah, we shouldn't even be putting Kliffy in the same stadium.

True, KK is better.

Increased the number of wins by 3 each year. On projection to win 14 this year. Won 2 games with Colt McCoy at qb with one against the NFC runner up SF Niners. Also minus D-Hop. Kliff has done a pretty darn good job with the Cards. Especially learning on the fly since he had no previous NFL experience coaching.

 

[Stout]

Take it from someone surrounded by Steeler fans, Tomlin is viewed at best as a slightly above average HC. What the Steelers have is a phenomenal organization & fan base. Chuck Noll was a great HC. Cowher was average, as is Tomlin.

I'm surrounded by Stiller fans too, and there are two segments of the fan base. Three, I suppose. There's a small segment of blind Tomlin loyalists. There's a very vocal minority that think he's overrated or JAG at coach. Most of the fans around here seem to think he's pretty damn good and an important cog in (what has been) a great organization. With Colbert's retirement, and the younger players, the culture might erode. Then again, look at what he did with Antonio Brown. Everyone thought he was too indulgent, babied him too much, etc. Sure, he had behavior problems in Pittsburgh, but he exploded after he left. Tomlin got a lot of credit after that.

Is he the perfect coach? No. But to go that long without a losing season, regardless of how good your organization is, is astounding.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Take it from someone surrounded by Steeler fans, Tomlin is viewed at best as a slightly above average HC. What the Steelers have is a phenomenal organization & fan base. Chuck Noll was a great HC. Cowher was average, as is Tomlin.

The Steelers have a storied history, their fans expect more from their team after winning Super Bowls and there is a higher criteria for excellence. Tomlin is far above average, and just as good, if not better than Bruce Arians... Steeler fans are so spoiled, they make it look like Tomlin is Marvin Lewis who is actually average lol

 

[HairZach]

He's taken advantage of being in the same division with 2 of the crappiest teams in the NFL the past decade (Browns & Bengals). Dude cannot beat the better teams & better HC's, so yes, at best, he's an average to above average NFL HC. I live in Steeler country & NO ONE would argue the point I'm making. If he was in the NFCW, he'd have many losing records.

Steelers fans thinking Tomlin average to above average is a result of the Brady/Belichick regime warping people's perspective on what success is.

This PFF list is a fun attempt to model the "head coach variable" in football. I don't fully understand the model but from the results it looks like PFF thinks our roster (for the majority of Kliff's tenure at least) is hot garbage that is massively elevated by the coaching staff.

 

[BritCard]

...and some would rather deflect than to have their opinion challenged.

You didn't challenge my opinion. You invented that I didn't read it and rushed to judgement because Kliff was 4th.

 

[BritCard]

I'm surrounded by Stiller fans too, and there are two segments of the fan base. Three, I suppose. There's a small segment of blind Tomlin loyalists. There's a very vocal minority that think he's overrated or JAG at coach. Most of the fans around here seem to think he's pretty damn good and an important cog in (what has been) a great organization. With Colbert's retirement, and the younger players, the culture might erode. Then again, look at what he did with Antonio Brown. Everyone thought he was too indulgent, babied him too much, etc. Sure, he had behavior problems in Pittsburgh, but he exploded after he left. Tomlin got a lot of credit after that.

Is he the perfect coach? No. But to go that long without a losing season, regardless of how good your organization is, is astounding.

Look at the last few years of Steelers football and tell me what stars they had on that team? After peak Lev Bell and AB (which ended in 2017 and 2018) he's been working with a QB well passed his prime, an ever declining O line, a good but not fantastic bunch of WRs, a defensive backfield of good but not great players. All the star power has really been on the D line.

The team he started 11-0 with in 2020 wasn't anywhere near a 11-0 team if you look at that roster.

 

[Stout]

Look at the last few years of Steelers football and tell me what stars they had on that team? After peak Lev Bell and AB (which ended in 2017 and 2018) he's been working with a QB well passed his prime, an ever declining O line, a good but not fantastic bunch of WRs, a defensive backfield of good but not great players. All the star power has really been on the D line.

The team he started 11-0 with in 2020 wasn't anywhere near a 11-0 team if you look at that roster.

Preaching to the choir, @BritCard. I remember talking to Stillers fans who were just waiting for the collapse and weren't at all surprised they lost to Cleveland in the playoffs.

 

[Phrazbit]

Hmm...

Does this chart only track the first 8-10 games?

I guess I need to stop quoting PFF when debating the NFL.

Yeesh.

Maybe I am being to harsh. If there is one coach that KK reminds me of, it is Andy Reid, not the Chiefs version, but the one in Philly, who's teams always were compelling, played exciting games... and who famously couldn't manage fourth quarters and had some massive collapses. Hopefully KK adjusts quicker than Andy did.

If he could also learn Philly Andy's ability to bamboozle teams into trading 1st and 2nd day picks for his crappy back up players who looked good in part of 1 or 2 games... that would be great.

 

[BritCard]

I'll say this about Kliff. He has the potential to be a very good HC and I don't mind they extended him.

There are some thing he is very good at, some things he has improved on a great deal but still has some work to do, and some holes he really needs to fix. You can't fault his work rate.

His biggest issues for me are his late season collapses, his lack of a plan B when plan A isn't working, his over simplistic route concepts and his apparent lack of any involvement in the defense. I think the HC should be setting the standards and scheme on both sides of the ball. If Vance goes and we need a new DC what's he going to do? Change the whole D scheme? Adopt Vance's philosophy as his own without fully comprehending it? I also wish he would bring in an OC like Jim Caldwell.

But overall he's improved enough to be given more time. I'm not one for chopping and changing HC's. It more often leads to things getting worse, not better, especially for a franchise that doesn't attract top candidates.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

You didn't challenge my opinion. You invented that I didn't read it and rushed to judgement because Kliff was 4th.

Still can't admit it I see.

 

[Chopper0080]

What this list reiterates to me is the Kliff is closer to being a good coach than he is to being a bad one.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

What this list reiterates to me is the Kliff is closer to being a good coach than he is to being a bad one.

Seems like a logical take...

 

[Zalixar]

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I know it doesn't factor in trades or FA, but drafting has to improve.

Edit: Redundancy