Pelicans @ Suns Tuesday Playoff game thread 4-26-2022 - Game 5

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Also, Ayton had 3 assists tonight, and each of them may rank among the slickest passes of his entire career. Dude was dishing out bounce passes to dudes who had barely started to cut to the rim. I don't doubt that tonight he decided to do a better job of finding cutting teammates.

He has all the skill to be the best big in the league... there is literally NOTHING he hasn't shown the ability to do at a high level for a big. Instead of focusing on the glass one night or scoring the next... just go clobber teams! Tie it together big fella!!!

Agreed. He made some fantastic passes leading to easy buckets. When his hands, shot, motor, and eyes are on we all see why he was the #1 pick. Happily it’s happening with more frequency.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

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Either that didn’t hit his nuts or the dude is a eunuch. No one gets actually kicked in the nuts and turns and runs that quickly. No one.

 

[Covert Rain]

I found this baffling. We were clamoring for it before the game. Monty deployed it. It worked. Then we stopped doing it and Paul had a turnover and ended up exhausted.

I didn't get this either. We deployed at least one other player staying back with Paul in the backcourt in case they decided to full court pressure then it was like the team forgot to give him help back there. Also, I am convinced he is not 100%. I don't think he is majorly hurt but since when does full court pressure bother Paul? He likely is just a little banged up and exhausted without Book.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I didn't see much of the game but I would argue that Ayton has more responsibility than Valanciunis? What I mean is that's literally all they ask of V, rebound on both ends. Ayton is a big scoring option especially with Booker out, he's blocking shots at a much higher level than he used to. So I think he is involved in more things. He still should be a better rebounder.

First, we do ask more of him defensively, but what you argue here isn’t reflected in the stats. Ayton is averaging 1 more shot per game, .6 less assists, 1 more block, and 5 less rebounds per game. They’re pretty similar in what’s being asked of them offensively (though Ayton has been more effective shooting).

Second, none of this has anything to do with our actual conversation. Our conversation is essentially my saying Ayton has been weak on the boards in terms of grabbing rebounds and keeping valencunius off the boards. 82 and Finito contend it’s because he’s out of position a lot due to how the suns deploy him defensively. What I broke down was how often he is on the perimeter in a role that most centers don’t undertake when the shot actually went up - in other words, does this deployment actually impinge on his effectiveness in the boards? For last night, at least, that really wasn’t the case. And that meets what my eyes have been telling me.

 

[Covert Rain]

First, we do ask more of him defensively, but what you argue here isn’t reflected in the stats. Ayton is averaging 1 more shot per game, .6 less assists, 1 more block, and 5 less rebounds per game. They’re pretty similar in what’s being asked of them offensively (though Ayton has been more effective shooting).

Second, none of this has anything to do with our actual conversation. Our conversation is essentially my saying Ayton has been weak on the boards in terms of grabbing rebounds and keeping valencunius off the boards. 82 and Finito contend it’s because he’s out of position a lot due to how the suns deploy him defensively. What I broke down was how often he is on the perimeter in a role that most centers don’t undertake when the shot actually went up - in other words, does this deployment actually impinge on his effectiveness in the boards? For last night, at least, that really wasn’t the case. And that meets what my eyes have been telling me.

One thing they talked about post game is that Monty is making it a point to run Ayton/McGee out at open 3 point shooters instead of giving them open looks. That seemed to work in the game last night. That definitely puts them at a disadvantage on the boards. To me the difference was when we played them both at the same time, it meant we at least had one big hanging back when the other was running out to meet the open perimeter shooter. That would normally be Crowder or Cam on an island to pick up rebounds which hasn't been working. I have not broken down the tape but it seems to me I have seen Ayton jump out at shooters more than I can remember in a long time.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You felt like you were being trolled in game?

Bro give it a rest. Suns win everyone is happy and here you are with this. Not a good look

You were wrong so you attack me personally. Talk about a bad look.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

LOL… no trolling. At least not from me.
I’m shocked to see you simply pointing to rebound totals of DA and Jonas, entirely disregarding the actual role each one plays.
I’m done trying to point out the obvious/not-so obvious to you.

If DA’s role was to simply out-rebound Jonas, my gut is he would find a way to do that. But of course, that’s not how he’s being used. Why? Because DA is good enough and athletic enough to defend away from the basket.

So… once again, DA played a very, very good game last night. Just as he’s done the entire series…carrying out the role he’s been tasked with.

Lol. You and Finito being unable to admit your wrong in the face of my actually studying the topic last night is all we need to understand your hubris and blind spot for Ayton.

 

[Finito]

LOL… no trolling. At least not from me.
I’m shocked to see you simply pointing to rebound totals of DA and Jonas, entirely disregarding the actual role each one plays.
I’m done trying to point out the obvious/not-so obvious to you.

If DA’s role was to simply out-rebound Jonas, my gut is he would find a way to do that. But of course, that’s not how he’s being used. Why? Because DA is good enough and athletic enough to defend away from the basket.

So… once again, DA played a very, very good game last night. Just as he’s done the entire series…carrying out the role he’s been tasked with.

Ayton
19 points(8/13) 9 rebounds 3 Assist
+19 and played really great defense

And still guys complain.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

One thing they talked about post game is that Monty is making it a point to run Ayton/McGee out at open 3 point shooters instead of giving them open looks. That seemed to work in the game last night. That definitely puts them at a disadvantage on the boards. To me the difference was when we played them both at the same time, it meant we at least had one big hanging back when the other was running out to meet the open perimeter shooter. That would normally be Crowder or Cam on an island to pick up rebounds which hasn't been working. I have not broken down the tape but it seems to me I have seen Ayton jump out at shooters more than I can remember in a long time.

It only hurts them on the boards if they are actually out there when the shot goes up. As I detailed, last night Ayton was only away from the paint/Jonas three times. Those three times he wouldn’t have had a chance to snare a rebound unless it was a long rebound. 58 times he was in position to rebound/box out valencunius/nance (mostly Jonas as Ayton didn’t okay big minutes when nance was in).

 

[Chaplin]

Ayton
19 points(8/13) 9 rebounds 3 Assist
+19 and played really great defense

And still guys complain.

I’m one of the ones that thinks that DA’s lower totals are by design but I think you are being overly critical of Ouchies position here. I’m 100% sure he’s not complaining about DA’s stat line. He’s talking about whether he should/could have more rebounds.

 

[Covert Rain]

Just some perspective. Ayton vs other centers in the playoffs:

Scoring #4
Minutes #3
FG% #2
Rebounds #5
Assists #6
Steels #6
Blocks #3

There are 32 centers in the playoffs right now (including backups) in the regular rotation. Ayton is top 6 or better in every category and top 5 in four of them. He is getting national recognition for being dominant in the paint. Look I think he has room to grow but some people are being overly critical.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton
19 points(8/13) 9 rebounds 3 Assist
+19 and played really great defense

And still guys complain.

No. In my very first post after the game I gave Ayton kudos for a solid game. But the three of us were having a discussion about a specific aspect of Ayton’s rebounding. I said I was going to watch his and Jonas positioning to see if it was different. Coming back here to give the outcome to want complaining, you just don’t like the data bc it doesn’t match your fantasy.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I’m one of the ones that thinks that DA’s lower totals are by design but I think you are being overly critical of Ouchies position here. I’m 100% sure he’s not complaining about DA’s stat line. He’s talking about whether he should/could have more rebounds.

Kind of. You’re right that I’m not complaining about Ayton’s stat line or even his overall game. But I’m not even arguing he should have more rebounds. I’m only discussing whether the whole “he plays defense in the perimeter that’s why he isn’t as effective in the boards” excuse even actually holds water. Last night it really didn’t. Talking about a very limited argument.

 

[Chaplin]

If we had swept the Pelicans, DA’s rebounding stats would be just a minor concern. But in this series we have been killed on the boards and that fact has been directly responsible for the two times we lost. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have a CONVERSATION about it.

 

[Chaplin]

Kind of. You’re right that I’m not complaining about Ayton’s stat line or even his overall game. But I’m not even arguing he should have more rebounds. I’m only discussing whether the whole “he plays defense in the perimeter that’s why he isn’t as effective in the boards” excuse even actually holds water. Last night it really didn’t. Talking about a very limited argument.

I don’t think that has anything to do with it. It’s not like he didn’t play any perimeter defense in his 17-board game this year.

I still think it’s because he is told that he need to box out the guy who got over twenty rebounds in game 1 and allow his teammates to get the boards. IMO, the failure is more on them than it is on DA.

 

[Finito]

No. In my very first post after the game I gave Ayton kudos for a solid game. But the three of us were having a discussion about a specific aspect of Ayton’s rebounding. I said I was going to watch his and Jonas positioning to see if it was different. Coming back here to give the outcome to want complaining, you just don’t like the data bc it doesn’t match your fantasy.

This is like that I don’t think about you scene in madmen. You are really over estimating how I see you. You seriously spent the game trying to track Ayton and Jonas and thought you were being trolled in the game thread.

I honestly don’t care about your opinion on Ayton. We have done this for years. Doesn’t matter what he does you’ll be here complaining that he’s not doing more. Perfect example was last night. Great stat line really good defense a +19 and still here you are.

Let me give you some advice. If your always focusing on what you don’t have you’ll never appreciate what you do have.

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And they won didn’t they, which was our goal

 

[Russ Smith]

First, we do ask more of him defensively, but what you argue here isn’t reflected in the stats. Ayton is averaging 1 more shot per game, .6 less assists, 1 more block, and 5 less rebounds per game. They’re pretty similar in what’s being asked of them offensively (though Ayton has been more effective shooting).

Second, none of this has anything to do with our actual conversation. Our conversation is essentially my saying Ayton has been weak on the boards in terms of grabbing rebounds and keeping valencunius off the boards. 82 and Finito contend it’s because he’s out of position a lot due to how the suns deploy him defensively. What I broke down was how often he is on the perimeter in a role that most centers don’t undertake when the shot actually went up - in other words, does this deployment actually impinge on his effectiveness in the boards? For last night, at least, that really wasn’t the case. And that meets what my eyes have been telling me.

I guess my eye test tells me Ayton is asked to do more guarding outside the paint too but if you tracked it and it's not true that's interesting.

I do think Valancuinis is a much better player than he gets credit for he's in double digit rebounds the last 4 years, the last 3 over 11. I do agree he's outrebounding Ayton.

Ayton's a very good player but I guess there's always been the perception he doesn't play as hard as he should

 

[dscher]

Let me give you some advice. If your always focusing on what you don’t have you’ll never appreciate what you do have.

That is good advice. I won't justify my position on why I criticize Ayton. It is what it is. Just as you will be overly protective of him at times, some will be maybe overly critical at times, like myself. Such is life, friend.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don’t think that has anything to do with it. It’s not like he didn’t play any perimeter defense in his 17-board game this year.

I still think it’s because he is told that he need to box out the guy who got over twenty rebounds in game 1 and allow his teammates to get the boards. IMO, the failure is more on them than it is on DA.

My quibble with this is if that is that if his main job is to box Jonas out to let other guys get boards, he hasn’t been overly effective doing that job as Jonas is averaging 15 rebounds on his own.

Ayton has played well in this series. Doesn’t mean he’s above criticism… (not directed at you) just like Bridges was at times in the series, just like Monty has been, just like CP3 has been, etc. etc. there’s a reason outside of Book’s injury that this series has been such a grind and it’s because almost every one of our best players haven’t played up to their best abilities each game.

 

[Covert Rain]

It only hurts them on the boards if they are actually out there when the shot goes up. As I detailed, last night Ayton was only away from the paint/Jonas three times. Those three times he wouldn’t have had a chance to snare a rebound unless it was a long rebound. 58 times he was in position to rebound/box out valencunius/nance (mostly Jonas as Ayton didn’t okay big minutes when nance was in).

It's not about when it hurts them. I am talking about what he is being asked to do. Also, I have no idea where you are getting those numbers from. I just re-watched the entire 1st quarter. You are saying 3 times for the entire game but that's not true. Maybe our definition is different. To me when a player leaks out of the paint towards a perimeter player that counts. In the first quarter alone, I count 7 times either Ayton or McGee slid out of the paint towards a perimeter player. I have not even gotten through the other 3 quarters. Here are the time they slid away from the basket towards a perimeter player

7:00 - Ayton
5:46 - Ayton
4:41 - McGee Trap
3:05 - Ayton
2:20 - Ayton Trap
:52 - Covering Nance on perimeter then slid to Graham on the wing
.31 - Ayton covering Hayes on the wing

In the first quarter alone they leaked out multiple times to cover guys away from the paint which again according to post game was by design.

 

[Chaplin]

My quibble with this is if that is that if his main job is to box Jonas out to let other guys get boards, he hasn’t been overly effective doing that job as Jonas is averaging 15 rebounds on his own.

Ayton has played well in this series. Doesn’t mean he’s above criticism… (not directed at you) just like Bridges was at times in the series, just like Monty has been, just like CP3 has been, etc. etc. there’s a reason outside of Book’s injury that this series has been such a grind and it’s because almost every one of our best players haven’t played up to their best abilities each game.

That is a very good point. And we’ve seen a handful of times where the ball has been roped away from him but it’s not like Jonas is stealing rebounds for him.

Should he have more rebounds? Yes. Am I concerned about his lower numbers? No, if he has the teammates backing him up.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

It's not about when it hurts them. I am talking about what he is being asked to do. Also, I have no idea where you are getting those numbers from. I just re-watched the entire 1st quarter. You are saying 3 times for the entire game but that's not true. Maybe our definition is different. To me when a player leaks out of the paint towards a perimeter player that counts. In the first quarter alone, I count 7 times either Ayton or McGee slid out of the paint towards a perimeter player. I have not even gotten through the other 3 quarters. Here are the time they slid away from the basket towards a perimeter player

7:00 - Ayton
5:46 - Ayton
4:41 - McGee Trap
3:05 - Ayton
2:20 - Ayton Trap
:52 - Covering Nance on perimeter then slid to Graham on the wing
.31 - Ayton covering Hayes on the wing

In the first quarter alone they leaked out multiple times to cover guys away from the paint which again according to post game was by design.

Are you counting when a shot goes up or every occurrence Ayton moves to the perimeter?

 

[Covert Rain]

That is a very good point. And we’ve seen a handful of times where the ball has been roped away from him but it’s not like Jonas is stealing rebounds for him.

Should he have more rebounds? Yes. Am I concerned about his lower numbers? No, if he has the teammates backing him up.

I still think this is subjective. He is rebounding better than 85% of the centers in the rotation between all the playoff teams (16 starters/16 backups). I mean I could argue I would LOVE for him to be more dominate single games more often where he puts up huge rebounding numbers. However, there are only 6 guys averaging more boards playing center. I am fine with what he is doing and hope he continues to have those game where he puts up huge numbers now and then.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That is a very good point. And we’ve seen a handful of times where the ball has been roped away from him but it’s not like Jonas is stealing rebounds for him.

Should he have more rebounds? Yes. Am I concerned about his lower numbers? No, if he has the teammates backing him up.

I think the issue there is Bridges is almost always on a run out by design and Jae is just too small against Hayes who is 5 or 6 inches taller than him and much more athletic. Their size overall is just a massive issue for us with the way our team is constructed unless Monty goes more Twin Towers.

 

[Covert Rain]

Are you counting when a shot goes up or every occurrence Ayton moves to the perimeter?

I am counting each time he leaks out from the paint to cover someone outside the paint. In another words, times he was NOT parked in the paint waiting for a rebound. Which was the basis for my point. His assignment on those plays was to cover someone outside the paint or trap someone outside the paint. In the post game they said the team wanted to make sure someone was rushing at especially Ingraham and McCollum verses giving them open looks.