OT: NBA Finals: Cavs v. Warriors

[Russ Smith]

The foot injuries were a part of his hippie lifestyle (still her words, not mine). His vegetarian diet kept him from healing.

I have no idea on that, I think guys his size are just more prone to foot problems but certainly possible. He clearly wasn't doing himself any good with the drug use and stuff too. No idea how many NBA players are vegetarian, probably not that common.

He never once played a full NBA season, closest was 80 games as a backup in Boston.

That title year in Portland his 3rd year was pretty damn impressive though. He only played 65 games and about 35MPG but he put up 18.6 14.4 3.8 A and 3.2 blocks and then in the postseason did even better, 18 15 5.5 A 3.4 blocks in 40MPG. Outside of Mo Lucas and I guess Hollins(he was a rookie though) that was a very marginally talented team that beat a team with Dr J, McGinnis, Doug Collins, Bibby etc. Was the classic team vs group of individuals outcome.

As a UCLA fan at that point we all thought he's finally healthy, and looks like the guy he was coming out of college. Unfortunately that was really his best year, next year he was very good but hurt again and then it was years of injuries after that.

I think like Rick Barry his personality and stuff as he got older probably cost him a lot of recognition for how good he was when he was younger.

 

[Bert]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...s-craft-new-model-in-winning-nba-championship

I can't read that article without hearing Mike Dantonis voice in my head saying; "I'm not in the business of developing young players..."

Well Mike, you ain't in business at all anymore.

 

[slinslin]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...s-craft-new-model-in-winning-nba-championship

That makes no sense.

Klay Thompson is pretty much a max player.

The only reason Steph Curry is not on a max contract right now are his ankles, he will be maxed soon.

Draymond Green will get the max.

Andre Iguodala is a former allstar still on a big contract and same is true for Bogut and Lee.

How could anyone say that the Warriors are NOT a super team.

Iguodala, Bogut, Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Livingston are all lottery picks.

 

[mojorizen7]

Nov 11th 2013
Warriors owner Joe Lacob:

Question: In the three years since your group took over the organization, the Warriors have gone from doormats to contenders. Are you surprised it has happened so quickly?

Answer: I guess I should be humble and say I am. But I did believe that we had a plan that could and would work. I said that we were really going to change the culture and we were going to be relentless in pursuing everything, that this was a passion for us. We had watched this team for many, many years and I've been involved with the Celtics, so I knew I wanted to focus on defense, rebounding and size. I wanted to be big at every position, starting with Klay Thompson, a 6-7 two guard. Size matters. With defense, it was hiring a coach who was absolutely committed to defense. There's a mentality change here; that's what hiring Mark Jackson was all about. I didn't know if he could coach. Nobody knew that, and everyone pointed it out. One thing I did know, because I've interviewed a lot of people in my life, is that he would come in and really change the mentality. That has happened. Did I think it would turn around in three years? I hoped it would, and I thought it could, but there are no guarantees. So I was prepared for the prospect that it might take longer.

http://www.csnbayarea.com/warriors/lacob-hiring-jackson-west-changed-mentality


Pay attention Suns.

 

[Phrazbit]

Nov 11th 2013
Warriors owner Joe Lacob:


http://www.csnbayarea.com/warriors/lacob-hiring-jackson-west-changed-mentality


Pay attention Suns.

Eh, thats more than a bit disingenuous. Dated 2 years ago and Mark Jackson, the guy who "changed the culture" ended up getting exposed as a cancerous train-wreck. They then brought in a coach who totally revamped the team's offense and started playing their best 5 regardless of size and THAT is when they actually became a contender.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Eh, thats a bit disingenuous. Dated 2 years ago and Mark Jackson, the guy who "changed the culture" ended up getting exposed as a cancerous train-wreck. They then brought in a coach who totally revamped the team's offense and THAT is when they actually became a contender.

thought the same thing. The literally sized down starting Green instead of Lee and then went completely small to comeback and win the Finals.

 

[mojorizen7]

Eh, thats more than a bit disingenuous. Dated 2 years ago and Mark Jackson, the guy who "changed the culture" ended up getting exposed as a cancerous train-wreck. They then brought in a coach who totally revamped the team's offense and started playing their best 5 regardless of size and THAT is when they actually became a contender.

Disingenuous? By whom?

Of course it was dated 2 years ago. The fact that GS decided to change their long standing offensive culture of basketball A FEW YEARS AGO led them to their first title in 40 years. The Warriors went against the grain of what they'd been for years and turned to a defensive-minded culture of basketball. It's right there for you to read, from the mouth of the man making the decisions.

If you don't see that then you just choose not to.

I swear some of you guys have your heads stuck in the mud.

 

[Phrazbit]

Disingenuous? By whom?

Of course it was dated 2 years ago. The fact that GS decided to change their long standing offensive culture of basketball A FEW YEARS AGO led them to their first title in 40 years. The Warriors went against the grain of what they'd been for years and turned to a defensive-minded culture of basketball. It's right there for you to read, from the mouth of the man making the decisions.

If you don't see that then you just choose not to.

I swear some of you guys have your heads stuck in the mud.

Give me a break, my head is stuck in the mud? You linked an article that praises Mark Jackson for turning the Warriors into a title contender. Not even a year later he was fired because they fell well short of expectations. He created a cancerous culture and wasted a boat load of offensive talent. Furthermore it talks about the supposed importance of size in defending.

What then turned them into an actual contender (not just the paper tiger they were at the time the article was printed) was a total change in offensive philosophy and an emphasis on getting your best guys on the floor, regardless of their size.

If anything calling it merely "disingenuous" was being kind. Virtually every point of praise in that article was thrown into the garbage when Kerr took over.

 

[mojorizen7]

thought the same thing. The literally sized down starting Green instead of Lee and then went completely small to comeback and win the Finals.

So a Finals series adjustment wipes out the obvious changes in philosophy, and complete turnaround that franchise made in the last few years? Ok.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So a Finals series adjustment wipes out the obvious changes in philosophy, and complete turnaround that franchise made in the last few years? Ok.

did you just completely ignore the fact that they dropped Lee and replaced him with a guy three inches shorter with Draymond throughout the season as well? That was a season adjustment, plus the major playoff adjustment in going small to win the title. And you accuse others of sticking their heads in the sand... come on now.

They changed offensive and defensive philosophies that were both completely different from the ones the Owner was praising when he talked about Mark Jackson and his focus on size.

 

[Phrazbit]

So a Finals series adjustment wipes out the obvious changes in philosophy, and complete turnaround that franchise made in the last few years? Ok.

It wasn't just the finals, it was all year long from the moment Kerr took over. That article talks about defense and being "big at every position", the first change Kerr made was install a 6'7" guy at PF. Basically taking a dump on the thesis of the article. And it went beyond that, with the frequent us of Barbosa and Livingston, 2 PGs, receiving minutes at SG and SF, that same 6'7" PF often playing center.

Virtually none of that "philosophy" you're hoping the Suns emulate was in play for the Warriors last season. And rightfully so, because Mark Jackson was grossly incompetent.

 

[mojorizen7]

Give me a break, my head is stuck in the mud? You linked an article that praises Mark Jackson for turning the Warriors into a title contender. Not even a year later he was fired because they fell well short of expectations. He created a cancerous culture and wasted a boat load of offensive talent. Furthermore it talks about the supposed importance of size in defending.

What then turned them into an actual contender (not just the paper tiger they were at the time the article was printed) was a total change in offensive philosophy and an emphasis on getting your best guys on the floor, regardless of their size.

If anything calling it merely "disingenuous" was being kind. Virtually every point of praise in that article was thrown into the garbage when Kerr took over.

Again, you completely miss the point. The hiring of Jackson was the first step in changing the culture around. Joe Lacob said the same thing immediately following the deciding game to claim the title vs Cleveland. I've been trying to find something to link it.

I'm probably wasting my time though, since you are Hellbent on believing their turnaround had very little to do with changing the basketball culture around...so yeah, I'd say your head is buried in the sand to decide not to see the process of how this happened since the friggin owner made a decision to make a change(I know you can read), hire a defensive-minded HC to get the ball rolling, and make the necessary steps to fire him because he was awful with the personnel, and hire Kerr to continue those very same philosophies.

If you truly believe that the Suns are doing it right and that Sarver has nothing at all he can learn and take from the Golden St turnaround then i am wasting my time with you. I apologize.

 

[mojorizen7]

It wasn't just the finals, it was all year long from the moment Kerr took over. That article talks about defense and being "big at every position", the first change Kerr made was install a 6'7" guy at PF. Basically taking a dump on the thesis of the article. And it went beyond that, with the frequent us of Barbosa and Livingston, 2 PGs, receiving minutes at SG and SF, that same 6'7" PF often playing center.

Virtually none of that "philosophy" you're hoping the Suns emulate was in play for the Warriors last season. And rightfully so, because Mark Jackson was grossly incompetent.

The Warriors were something like the 2nd ranked defense in the league this year under Kerr. Are you kidding me?
Take your goggles off dude, or pull your head outta the mud. Who's being disingenuous now?

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Warriors were something like the 2nd ranked defense in the league this year under Kerr. Are you kidding me?
Take your goggles off dude, or pull your head outta the mud. Who's being disingenuous now?

Are you going to keep ignoring the fact that they achieved that ranking by playing small almost all year long and then going even smaller in the playoffs?

 

[mojorizen7]

Are you going to keep ignoring the fact that they achieved that ranking by playing small almost all year long and then going even smaller in the playoffs?

BS
Don't act like Bogut and Thompson didn't play all year. You want to argue bull**** with me?

 

[Cheesebeef]

BS
Don't act like Bogut and Thompson didn't play all year. You want to argue bull**** with me?

First... did I EVER say that? No. But starting a 6'7 PF over the bigger 6'10 David Lee IS going small. Second... since when is Thompson a big man? I mean, you're accusing me of BS and throwing that in.

And last, Bogut averaged a whopping 22 MINUTES PER GAME ALL season. So yes, the majority of the time, the Warriors played small not only at PF (which they did ALL season with Green) but for significant chunks of the regular season with Bogut getting less then half the minutes at C and then getting BENCHED when all the chips were down.

 

[Russ Smith]

Eh, thats more than a bit disingenuous. Dated 2 years ago and Mark Jackson, the guy who "changed the culture" ended up getting exposed as a cancerous train-wreck. They then brought in a coach who totally revamped the team's offense and started playing their best 5 regardless of size and THAT is when they actually became a contender.

To be accurate, they promoted a guy to GM who'd already been taking the team down the path of analytics. Myers then hired a coach who was willing to play the system he wanted to play, Jackson hadn't been willing and had been a personality nightmare for other coaches and some of the players.

I think Kerr did a terrific job but there's this story out there that he came in and decided to change the offense, in reality he was brought in specifically to run the style of offense he put in.

One of the things the Warriors put in place is getting a GM and coach who were working together.

 

[SirStefan32]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Jackson's coaching ability was not an issue. His attitude and the bizarre "us vs. them" behavior was what got him fired, no?

 

[elindholm]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Jackson's coaching ability was not an issue. His attitude and the bizarre "us vs. them" behavior was what got him fired, no?

How is that distinct from coaching ability?

 

[Phrazbit]

Again, you completely miss the point. The hiring of Jackson was the first step in changing the culture around. Joe Lacob said the same thing immediately following the deciding game to claim the title vs Cleveland. I've been trying to find something to link it.

I'm probably wasting my time though, since you are Hellbent on believing their turnaround had very little to do with changing the basketball culture around...so yeah, I'd say your head is buried in the sand to decide not to see the process of how this happened since the friggin owner made a decision to make a change(I know you can read), hire a defensive-minded HC to get the ball rolling, and make the necessary steps to fire him because he was awful with the personnel, and hire Kerr to continue those very same philosophies.

If you truly believe that the Suns are doing it right and that Sarver has nothing at all he can learn and take from the Golden St turnaround then i am wasting my time with you. I apologize.

The change in culture that won them a title came a year later. The culture from the article you're quoting went out the window. And the Suns do not have the same culture, I never said they did. But the culture YOU seem to think the Warriors had didn't take them anywhere of note and got their coach fired.

The Warriors were something like the 2nd ranked defense in the league this year under Kerr. Are you kidding me?
Take your goggles off dude, or pull your head outta the mud. Who's being disingenuous now?

And they were first in the league in offense, by a wide margin.

I honestly don't know what to say. If you think the Warriors that just won played ANYTHING like the Warriors of 2013-14 then you didn't watch them play. Kerr brought in a drastically different play-style and he certainly didn't give two squirts about making sure his team had the proper matchups based on size (which your article extensively emphasizes).

The coaches who just won the title are talking non-stop about what got them there was an emphasis on unselfish, fast paced offense and a transition to getting your best guys out there regardless of size. Meanwhile you link a 2 year old article talking about the importance of size and the philosophy of a fired and incompetent coach... and say anyone who disagrees with that idea (which I suppose by extension means the actual Warriors and their coaches) has their heads in the mud.

I enjoy a good debate but I find this one silly. Thinking the Warriors were all about size and defensive matchups is a gross disconnect from reality.

 

[SirStefan32]

How is that distinct from coaching ability?

One is ability, the other one is conduct. Jackson changed their culture from "losers" to "winners." He changed their mindset. Unfortunately, the way he did it had some serious side effects. Don't get me wrong, Kerr did an outstanding job, but Jackson did a lot of ground work for the Warriors' championship.

 

[sunsfan88]

The Warriors improved almost every season under Mark Jackson and guys like Curry and Klay have said it numerous times that he was key for their development.

I think Jackson is a dirtbag (especially after the stuff he told the team about Ezili) but he still deserves at least some credit for changing the culture in GSW.