OT: Kyler Murray Debacle Thread

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Versus a completely fresh coach and GM ruining him?

I’d take that shot

 

[TRW]

Versus a completely fresh coach and GM ruining him?

Unfortunately, we know WHO would be selecting that fresh new coach and GM. Rinse and repeat Bidwill.

 

[DaHilg]

Who was running ball in those respective games?

Murray
Conner
Benson

Brissett
Bam
Carter

Kinda makes sense there’s a yard difference per rush, no? I’d think Kyler’s rushing alone would have a big impact there because no one is mistaking brissett for the rusher that Kyler is. Of course you compare passing yards and it’s no comparison.

And if you compare passing attempts it’s not comparison.. Brisset is averaging 43 PER A GAME. Kyler was averaging 32 a game. Yards a game really aren’t that much of a disparity when you factor that alone… Nevermind ignore the context that the defenses have been in prevent defenses nearly every game… or JB had the luxury of playing the Cowboys.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

And if you compare passing attempts it’s not comparison.. Brisset is averaging 43 PER A GAME. Kyler was averaging 32 a game. Yards a game really aren’t that much of a disparity when you factor that alone… Nevermind ignore the context that the defenses have been in prevent defenses nearly every game… or JB had the luxury of playing the Cowboys.

you still cant grasp how the whole keeping drives alive with first downs leads to more pass attempts - and that conner and benson are gone

 

[DaHilg]

you still cant grasp how the whole keeping drives alive with first downs leads to more pass attempts - and that conner and benson are gone

Ya we’ve kept so many drives alive that we’ve stayed in games! F N comical.. also comical is the context that drives stay alive when teams are in prevent.

Get back in your locker.. next!

 

[HairZach]

Ya we’ve kept so many drives alive that we’ve stayed in games! F N comical.. also comical is the context that drives stay alive when teams are in prevent.

Get back in your locker.. next!

A few pages I did the math and when Kyler passes 40+ times a game he loses just as much as Jacoby and scores fewer points while doing so. You guys are still harping on this? Kyler can't even put up stats in garbage time situations, if there's no run game carrying him and he's forced to pass he is beyond awful.

 

[DaHilg]

A few pages I did the math and when Kyler passes 40+ times a game he loses just as much as Jacoby and scores fewer points while doing so. You guys are still harping on this? Kyler can't even put up stats in garbage time situations, if there's no run game carrying him and he's forced to pass he is beyond awful.

These are just uneducated statements.. if a QB is throwing that many times they are typically behind, and behind early. If a defense is up that much, they are in prevent and it is easier to make completions as well as make completions for more yardage.

So if you don’t think the yardage stats would be similar not only for your KDS hate, but any starting quality QB that throws the ball 43 times a game - I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

Versus a completely fresh coach and GM ruining him?

This particular coach and GM haven't shown any ability to select or develop QBs.

The nightmare scenario is:

Gannon fires Petz and brings in another coordinator but again is poor to mediocre as a coach

So Gannon gets fired. New coach is selected by the same GM who selected Gannon.

Again it doesn't work out. So now we are left with Kyler part 2 where he is facing an extension / has an extension and we are finally cleaning house.

I just way favor a new GM getting to pick his coach and then the two of them picking their QB.

 

[HairZach]

These are just uneducated statements.. if a QB is throwing that many times they are typically behind, and behind early. If a defense is up that much, they are in prevent and it is easier to make completions as well as make completions for more yardage.

So if you don’t think the yardage stats would be similar not only for your KDS hate, but any starting quality QB that throws the ball 43 times a game - I don’t know what to tell you.

Yes, when you're throwing 40+ a time it means you can't run or you're super far behind and have to throw. Most QBs lose in those situations, thats not a surprise. Typically its easier to make completions since defenses leave the short stuff open. Jacoby has played almost exclusively garbage time since the Dallas game (bucs and jags werent garbage time though).

You're saying that Kyler would be lighting it up just as much in garbage time, except that is easily proven wrong. Kyler has had to pass 40+ times plenty, we know exactly what happens. When throwing 40+ times a game since the start of the 2022 season, Kyler averages 16.5 points a game, Jacoby averages 22.3. Kyler can't even put up stats in garbage time! He's had plenty of opportunities to do so!

2022 isnt an arbitrary cutoff either, though if you're bored I can resend you to my post about why I use it for Kyler stats.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

I will tell you there was a sharp turn in the commentary for Wolf and Luke today. They have stopped blaming Kyler and now are "No QB would succeed in this situation outside of a select few"

I guess giving up the worst point differential in 7 games in team history changes the blame game a bit.

 

[DaHilg]

Yes, when you're throwing 40+ a time it means you can't run or you're super far behind and have to throw. Most QBs lose in those situations, thats not a surprise. Typically its easier to make completions since defenses leave the short stuff open. Jacoby has played almost exclusively garbage time since the Dallas game (bucs and jags werent garbage time though).

You're saying that Kyler would be lighting it up just as much in garbage time, except that is easily proven wrong. Kyler has had to pass 40+ times plenty, we know exactly what happens. When throwing 40+ times a game since the start of the 2022 season, Kyler averages 16.5 points a game, Jacoby averages 22.3. Kyler can't even put up stats in garbage time! He's had plenty of opportunities to do so!

2022 isnt an arbitrary cutoff either, though if you're bored I can resend you to my post about why I use it for Kyler stats.

Once again - KDS Twisting. Where did I say he would be lighting it up? I simply said their yardage stats would be similar. Not sure how this is twisted to “lighting” it up.

 

[Stout]

Once again - KDS Twisting. Where did I say he would be lighting it up? I simply said their yardage stats would be similar. Not sure how this is twisted to “lighting” it up.

Kyler was all about dem garbage time stats, and the stans defended those numbers to the death.

 

[kerouac9]

I will tell you there was a sharp turn in the commentary for Wolf and Luke today. They have stopped blaming Kyler and now are "No QB would succeed in this situation outside of a select few"

I guess giving up the worst point differential in 7 games in team history changes the blame game a bit.

It’s interesting. Cards Underground cut out the Kyler highlights in the intro, but Dani Surek often talks about how Kyler is injured.

 

[Dback Jon]

I will tell you there was a sharp turn in the commentary for Wolf and Luke today. They have stopped blaming Kyler and now are "No QB would succeed in this situation outside of a select few"

I guess giving up the worst point differential in 7 games in team history changes the blame game a bit.

I have noticed that across the board for the most part in 98.7.

Prepping to fire the coach, I hope

 

[Cheesebeef]

I have noticed that across the board for the most part in 98.7.

Prepping to fire the coach, I hope

my fear is it's setting up injuries as reason to excuse bringing back the Gonti monstrosity.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

my fear is it's setting up injuries as reason to excuse bringing back the Gonti monstrosity.

That is what they were doing as recently as a week ago. Kyler and injuries.

Now it is "problems innumerable."

 

[Cheesebeef]

That is what they were doing as recently as a week ago. Kyler and injuries.

Now it is "problems innumerable."

if you've got innumerable problems, that means the team is a disaster at a foundational level... and one person sets the foundation for a football team... the GM, Gonti Ossenfort. And everything he set as a foundation gets thrown out with him.

the truly amazing thing to me is just how awful this defense has been. The offense only having 3 starters out there at this point is kinda comical, but the Defense has all three of it's marquee FA signings healthy all year, has had it's first round pick from last year healthy almost all year, and outside a two or three game stretch in the middle of the season, has had what most of us hoped would be the defensive backfield with Melton stepping up, Johnson stepping in right away, Williams, Buddah and Thompson... and they've just been awful. Yes, there have been injuries to Mack Wilson and Starling, but every team has injuries and all of the resources this off-season went into the defense, with a defensive head coach and they're awful... in year 3 of the rebuild.

That should tell us this group doesn't have a clue and shouldn't be trusted moving forward to do anything, especially on offense. I mean, if the defense first head coach can't come close to figuring out his own side of the ball, why in the world would we entrust him to figure out how to groom a young QB?

 

[PDXChris]

I said it in another thread, I think Monti will be safe and if we are going new QB, we need a completely new staff. On the surface, all three facets (Monti, Coaches, Kyle) have blame. The one issues for me is that this coaching staff has failed to develop much outside the secondary and even then, its 50%ish. FFS, they couldn't even develop a generational WR. Several of these picks had a lot of us excited. Even Michael Wilson was either slow to developer are being held back by the scheme and/or Kyler. Zero OL and DL (outside of Stills) development and JG let those two coaches, who we started to see progress last year, walk. Then JG wanting his own S&C staff and pushing Buddy to retirement with so many on IR we are having to cut them to make room on the total roster. While Monti may be as much to blame, I am curious to see what a different staff can do with his players and with a fresh QB.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yes Kyler has carried Petzing / Gannon but he has not carried them enough.

Fair or not, the expectations are a winning record when you take a QB #1 and he counts for 19% of your total cap.

He is simultaneously not the problem and may do fine in a different situation, but he just isn't successful enough in this situation

With Kyler's cap hit at $43,325,677 and the NFL salary cap at $279,200,200, Kyler only counts for about 15.5% of the cap, not 19. That is, unless I have my numbers wrong.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

if you've got innumerable problems, that means the team is a disaster at a foundational level... and one person sets the foundation for a football team... the GM, Gonti Ossenfort. And everything he set as a foundation gets thrown out with him.

the truly amazing thing to me is just how awful this defense has been. The offense only having 3 starters out there at this point is kinda comical, but the Defense has all three of it's marquee FA signings healthy all year, has had it's first round pick from last year healthy almost all year, and outside a two or three game stretch in the middle of the season, has had what most of us hoped would be the defensive backfield with Melton stepping up, Johnson stepping in right away, Williams, Buddah and Thompson... and they've just been awful. Yes, there have been injuries to Mack Wilson and Starling, but every team has injuries and all of the resources this off-season went into the defense, with a defensive head coach and they're awful... in year 3 of the rebuild.

That should tell us this group doesn't have a clue and shouldn't be trusted moving forward to do anything, especially on offense. I mean, if the defense first head coach can't come close to figuring out his own side of the ball, why in the world would we entrust him to figure out how to groom a young QB?

What exactly have they built in 3 years? Does anyone see a coherent vision? Monti deserves as much of the blame as Gannon. He's taken a bad roster and transformed it into a somehow worse roster. How could anyone justify letting Monti choose our next QB?

 

[Cheesebeef]

What exactly have they built in 3 years? Does anyone see a coherent vision? Monti deserves as much of the blame as Gannon. He's taken a bad roster and transformed it into a somehow worse roster. How could anyone justify letting Monti choose our next QB?

Total mystery to me.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

What exactly have they built in 3 years? Does anyone see a coherent vision? Monti deserves as much of the blame as Gannon. He's taken a bad roster and transformed it into a somehow worse roster. How could anyone justify letting Monti choose our next QB?

I'm not sure I'd call it a worse roster. I'm also not sure if it is better. So if that's my opinion, the roster is probably equal on talent. (or slightly above)

That's also an indictment of Monti.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I'm not sure I'd call it a worse roster. I'm also not sure if it is better. So if that's my opinion, the roster is probably equal on talent. (or slightly above)

That's also an indictment of Monti.

Yeah, being at the same spot after 3 years and not building a playoff level team is indictment enough. It just doesn't take that long in this league, unless you're the Cardinals.

 

[Chopper0080]

Versus a completely fresh coach and GM ruining him?

This is the appropriate spot for the "why not both" meme

 

[Chopper0080]

I said it in another thread, I think Monti will be safe and if we are going new QB, we need a completely new staff. On the surface, all three facets (Monti, Coaches, Kyle) have blame. The one issues for me is that this coaching staff has failed to develop much outside the secondary and even then, its 50%ish. FFS, they couldn't even develop a generational WR. Several of these picks had a lot of us excited. Even Michael Wilson was either slow to developer are being held back by the scheme and/or Kyler. Zero OL and DL (outside of Stills) development and JG let those two coaches, who we started to see progress last year, walk. Then JG wanting his own S&C staff and pushing Buddy to retirement with so many on IR we are having to cut them to make room on the total roster. While Monti may be as much to blame, I am curious to see what a different staff can do with his players and with a fresh QB.

Outside of TE, I am not sure what position group this staff has developed.