On the offseason

Harry

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Murphy/Wilson both looked better earlier in the year and both got banged up down the stretch. Maybe they stay healthier next season?
Many talent evaluators have told me you can’t truly know the worth of a player until they have their first major injury. Wilson’s was borderline major and before it he gave too much cushion. I’m willing to say he might still develop and the cost is low, so hang in there.
 

Harry

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If Jimmie Ward is a building block I’m adding Thompson/Murphy as one’s even though they struggled down the stretch.

Next year is going to be big for Marco. His corner instincts seem to be awful right now.
Ward is a fine safety, but not a CB. I think the Cards are set with two good starters.
 

Harry

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The QB is skittish because Hump is a turnstile. Literally anyone would be better.

Beachum out there would be barely a drop off in ability but cost 1/9th the money.

Beachum had a 70 pass blocking grade vs 65 for Hump.

Before you say "But PFF" I'm using them because they are a numerical representation of what we have all seen with our eyes. Hump has been no better than Beachum. Hump has given up 5 more sacks that DJ and 4 less penalties.

Or is our QB only skittish and mobile for Hump?

I like Hump, but he's also a symbol of what is wrong with this organisation. He doesn't care enough. It's all just a bit laugh. And he has the same issues year after year.
Not a huge gap considering Humphries is usually blocking the top rusher since he’s protec the blind side.
 

Cheesebeef

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I thought I was the only one that noticed that! Man ran like he had ankle weights on and actually ran TO the defenders. SMDH.
That play was crazy. Sitting high above, When they first threw it, it looked like the perfect call with blockers set up for like a 20 yard gain. And then Daniels just ran away from the blockers and right into the defenders for a gain of 4.
 
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Russ Smith

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I’m fairly certain you could make this trade but I wouldn’t. I still see value.

yeah I don't want to trade him either I'm just curious what his actual value would be. I could see NE maybe he seems like the type of athlete Bill B would find a way to work in. There are some others but generally speaking LB's who can't play run defense are not coveted once that's revealed. Remember Deonne after he left. Hopefully Simmons will get better at it.
 

Harry

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Non-QB building block players:

49ers - Nick Bosa, Deebo Samuel, George Kittle, Fred Warner, Trent Williams, Arik Armstead, Jimmie Ward, Elijah Mitchell, etc.

Rams - Aaron Donald, Cooper Kupp, Jalen Ramsey, Robert Woods, Tyler Higbee, Cam Akers, possibly ODell & Von.

Cardinals - Budda Baker, Rodney Hudson, DeAndre Hopkins &……? One guy is already 30+ & another will be 30 when next season starts.


Sheesh.
If you include FAs you’d add Ertz to the list. I like Thompson, Edmonds and Watt
 

DVontel

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If Jimmie Ward is a building block I’m adding Thompson/Murphy as one’s even though they struggled down the stretch.

Next year is going to be big for Marco. His corner instincts seem to be awful right now.
I’ll add Thompson.

Murphy….idk. Was hella up & down since the GB game.
 

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Daniels must have pictures of Keim or Kingsbury. There is no other explanation for bringing him back LAST season.
 

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I would virtually kick you in the butt if you told me that (-: But I would not be surprised at all.

Eagles fan I know said on the board he's on they're discussing a rumored trade of Jalen Reagor for Andy Isabella. I told him I actually still like Reagor although he's been pretty bad so far but if you guys think Andy is going to do anything better than Reagor has you are not paying attention he's inactive most of our games.

If last night wasn't depressing enough for us look back at the recent drafts. We have ONE player on the roster from the 2017 draft, Budda, 2 players from 2018 Kirk and Edmonds. Mina is 100% right you look at our lack of depth it's entirely because Keim misses on so many picks he has to sign guys to fill roles and then has to go cheap on the depth to stay under the cap.

I still want a new coaching staff but I do agree it all should start with can Steve Keim.
Reagor is trash of the highest order Russ. Andy is trash too, but at least he isn't costing us games. I would likely chug a quart of Pine-Sol if we somehow find it to bring him any where near this team.
 
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Russ Smith

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I think Keim should get one more year to build the roster, but that's it. We either win a playoff game next year, or he's out, along with Kliff and VJ.

I actually think he should be fired now get someone else in now to have time to prepare for FA and the draft. They likely won't but you can't collapse again, have it clearly be connected to things like lack of depth have 2 young first rounders standing on the sidelines in a playoff game healthy because they can't get on the field and not hold somebody accountable.
 
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Russ Smith

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Reagor is trash of the highest order Russ. Andy is trash too, but at least he isn't costing us games. I would likely chug a quart of Pine-Sol if we somehow find it to bring him any where near this team.

he had that one really bad game but in general I think his biggest issue is they took him over Jefferson, which is not his fault.

I never had him as a first rounder anyways I had him as a second but I am surprised how bad he's been. That fumbled punt didn't cost them the game but sure didn't help. My take on Eagles Wr's is it's very hard to judge any of them because Jalen Hurts is just not a good Qb. And apparently Sirianni already stated that Hurts is the QB next year, and Reagor will be back as the #3 WR. From the blurb I just read it sounds like they think he needs to work harder and "make plays when they're there to be made", in other words don't drop 2 TD passes, no matter how poorly thrown, at the end of a game.

Edit I didn't watch the whole game didn't know he screwed up 2 other punt returns. Just saw it online.
 
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Crimson Warrior

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I actually think he should be fired now get someone else in now to have time to prepare for FA and the draft. They likely won't but you can't collapse again, have it clearly be connected to things like lack of depth have 2 young first rounders standing on the sidelines in a playoff game healthy because they can't get on the field and not hold somebody accountable.

Russ, I know passions are running high right now, and it's literally nauseating to see Zaven and Isaiah standing on the sidelines while our defense is getting lit up like a christmas tree.

But who is responsible for our two most recent first round picks not playing in the biggest game of the year? Did Keim miss on these guys (certainly plausible), or is VJ not giving them the chance to succeed? If you're sure these two players are talentless and irredeemable, and Keim has failed at drafting again, okay, it's maybe enough to justify moving on from SK.

But if it's on VJ, or someone else on the coaching staff, then I think Keim deserves another year to buff the roster. Like @kerouac9 so articulately stated, this next year is about gathering information so that Mike B can make important decisions. Including retaining Keim, K2, VJ and extending K1.

We collapsed horribly at the end of the season, but we also had it going for a minute too. Wouldn't you rather try to tweak 11-6, try to build on 11-6, vs. changing course? Keim is just as much responsible for getting us to 11-6 as anybody else in the organization.
 
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BritCard

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Not a huge gap considering Humphries is usually blocking the top rusher since he’s protec the blind side.

This isn't accurate any more. The top rusher lines up all over now. Chandler switches sides frequently. And there are many that line up only over the RT. Off the top of my head D-Law, Von Miller, Cam Jordan, Khalil Mack. I'm sure there are plenty more.
 
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Russ Smith

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Russ, I know passions are running high right now, and it's literally nauseating to see Zaven and Isaiah standing on the sidelines while our defense is getting lit up like a christmas tree.

But who is responsible for our two most recent first round picks not playing in the biggest game of the year? Did Keim miss on these guys (certainly plausible), or is VJ not giving them the chance to succeed? If you're sure these two players are talentless and irredeemable, and Keim has failed at drafting again, okay, it's maybe enough to justify moving on from SK.

But if it's on VJ, or someone else on the coaching staff, then I think Keim deserves another year to buff the roster. Like @kerouac9 so articulated stated, this next year is about gathering information so that Mike B can make important decisions. Including retaining Keim, K2, VJ and extending K1.

We collapsed horribly at the end of the season, but we also had it going for a minute too. Wouldn't you rather try to tweak 11-6, try to build on 11-6, vs. changing course? Keim is just as much responsible for getting us to 11-6 as anybody else in the organization.


Well we lack depth and have 2 recent first rounders not playing. To me that's an indictment on someone. If its' Vance yes fire him, or wait for someone to hire him and replace him. But my guess is if Simmons and Zaven were ready to play instantly, they'd be playing. Vance played Murphy lots as a rookie, and he played Marco Wilson although he had no choice. And remember Keim is the one who said Zaven would start right away, that he didn't suggests there's a disagreement on how ready he was. And again he didn't play ILB in college so it's not a shock he wasn't ready.
 

Stout

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Russ, I know passions are running high right now, and it's literally nauseating to see Zaven and Isaiah standing on the sidelines while our defense is getting lit up like a christmas tree.

But who is responsible for our two most recent first round picks not playing in the biggest game of the year? Did Keim miss on these guys (certainly plausible), or is VJ not giving them the chance to succeed? If you're sure these two players are talentless and irredeemable, and Keim has failed at drafting again, okay, it's maybe enough to justify moving on from SK.

But if it's on VJ, or someone else on the coaching staff, then I think Keim deserves another year to buff the roster. Like @kerouac9 so articulated stated, this next year is about gathering information so that Mike B can make important decisions. Including retaining Keim, K2, VJ and extending K1.

We collapsed horribly at the end of the season, but we also had it going for a minute too. Wouldn't you rather try to tweak 11-6, try to build on 11-6, vs. changing course? Keim is just as much responsible for getting us to 11-6 as anybody else in the organization.
This next year should be about winning. Mike B has had 3 seasons to form opinions to make the important decisions, and far longer for Keim. He needs to MAKE those important decisions. You think we just need a "tweak?" You think we can tweak our way out of being late-season choke artists? We need more than a tweak, @Crimson Warrior. You can see that, can't you? We need at least a culture change, a major roster overhaul (we don't have a lot of top players under contract, and we don't have a lot of top players or depth period), and prayers that KK and KM can finally in year FOUR figure it out. IMO, if we remain with the status quo, we need a miracle :)
 

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I think Keim should get one more year to build the roster, but that's it. We either win a playoff game next year, or he's out, along with Kliff and VJ.

AT MOST eight teams win playoff games, and there are a lot of factors that are out of the GMs control that determine the winner of each game.

Tough KPI to hit.

I think another 11-win season is a reasonable metric considering the alleged "all in" nature of this year. Keim's concern should be creating a consistent winner and then you hope to create lightning in a bottle come January.
I actually think he should be fired now get someone else in now to have time to prepare for FA and the draft. They likely won't but you can't collapse again, have it clearly be connected to things like lack of depth have 2 young first rounders standing on the sidelines in a playoff game healthy because they can't get on the field and not hold somebody accountable.

This is a tough organizational question for me. The scouting and roster-building process probably begins for real in the previous October. I know that franchises like to "punish" their staffs for a bad season in January, but you end up having lame-duck scouts recommending prospects when they're likely to get replaced as soon as the draft is over.

It seems weird to keep a front office on for one more free agency and draft, but they know the current roster the best at that time? It seems like something has to be REALLY messed up to put your organization through that much turmoil if you're not hiring a replacement from within. Maybe you fire Keim and you have a backlog of information on talent scouts or something who were ignored in your organization.

I just don't think we're there yet for having to burn down the whole organization.
 
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Russ Smith

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AT MOST eight teams win playoff games, and there are a lot of factors that are out of the GMs control that determine the winner of each game.

Tough KPI to hit.

I think another 11-win season is a reasonable metric considering the alleged "all in" nature of this year. Keim's concern should be creating a consistent winner and then you hope to create lightning in a bottle come January.


This is a tough organizational question for me. The scouting and roster-building process probably begins for real in the previous October. I know that franchises like to "punish" their staffs for a bad season in January, but you end up having lame-duck scouts recommending prospects when they're likely to get replaced as soon as the draft is over.

It seems weird to keep a front office on for one more free agency and draft, but they know the current roster the best at that time? It seems like something has to be REALLY messed up to put your organization through that much turmoil if you're not hiring a replacement from within. Maybe you fire Keim and you have a backlog of information on talent scouts or something who were ignored in your organization.

I just don't think we're there yet for having to burn down the whole organization.


I should add and I never bring it up but the DUI thing should have already had Keim on a short leash. Add in the issues we saw this year with a roster that was clearly top heavy with older players signed to fill holes the poor drafts left.

I don't think the Cards would be crazy to fire him. I get 11 wins, first playoff game since 2015, all good, but the endgame was disastrous.

I could live with Kliff making some coaching changes, I'd prefer a new coach but I do get complete overhaul of an 11 win team is tough to sell.

it's not an easy situation but it would be baffling to me if we do essentially nothing after what happened.
 

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AT MOST eight teams win playoff games, and there are a lot of factors that are out of the GMs control that determine the winner of each game.

Tough KPI to hit.

I think another 11-win season is a reasonable metric considering the alleged "all in" nature of this year. Keim's concern should be creating a consistent winner and then you hope to create lightning in a bottle come January.


This is a tough organizational question for me. The scouting and roster-building process probably begins for real in the previous October. I know that franchises like to "punish" their staffs for a bad season in January, but you end up having lame-duck scouts recommending prospects when they're likely to get replaced as soon as the draft is over.

It seems weird to keep a front office on for one more free agency and draft, but they know the current roster the best at that time? It seems like something has to be REALLY messed up to put your organization through that much turmoil if you're not hiring a replacement from within. Maybe you fire Keim and you have a backlog of information on talent scouts or something who were ignored in your organization.

I just don't think we're there yet for having to burn down the whole organization.
What will it take? Kyler regressing further? Our full-on meltdown collapses to span 1/2 to 3/4 of the season instead of just the ends of seasons? We are a highly flawed and broken organization at this point. I have no faith in this team from the FO down to the players right now. We have very few cornerstone players under contract, or at all. Our depth is almost nonexistent. We have either a DC who can't utilize his first round picks, a bunch of first-round defensive busts, or kinda both. Like, I'm not seeing why we aren't at that point yet.
 

phillycard

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he had that one really bad game but in general I think his biggest issue is they took him over Jefferson, which is not his fault.

I never had him as a first rounder anyways I had him as a second but I am surprised how bad he's been. That fumbled punt didn't cost them the game but sure didn't help. My take on Eagles Wr's is it's very hard to judge any of them because Jalen Hurts is just not a good Qb. And apparently Sirianni already stated that Hurts is the QB next year, and Reagor will be back as the #3 WR. From the blurb I just read it sounds like they think he needs to work harder and "make plays when they're there to be made", in other words don't drop 2 TD passes, no matter how poorly thrown, at the end of a game.

Edit I didn't watch the whole game didn't know he screwed up 2 other punt returns. Just saw it online.
Russ, I feel you about Hurts. He's a maaaaajor work in process so it's hard to evaluate anyone other that Smith who I believe is going to be really good. I actually look at Quez Watkins (who scorched us last year for a screen TD) as a much better wideout that Reagor. The dude just really doesn't have it. Yes he's a whipping boy for the Jefferson gaffe, but he (and to a worse degree, Arthega-Whiteside) just contribute absolutely nothing to that team.
 

Chopper0080

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Is your premise:

I think kyler will tune out a “hard guy” :)rolleyes:) so let’s stick with the laid back guy who he’s already apparently tuning out?

Cuz if he’s not tuning out kliff then you’re left with:

A) kliff sucks
B) kyler is too stupid to learn
I don't think he tunes out Kliff. I just don't think he does the extra. I think Kliff babies him trying to get him to a point where he realizes that doing the extra is what is going to get him to the level he wants to be.

Despite the context that we are aware of, Kyler does have a ROTY, PB and PB in his first three seasons. He has good stats. His hype is greater than the product he puts out but you can only put that out there so much if the guy isn't seeing it. You bring in a "hard guy" who is likely not a decorated HC based upon what our organization can acquire and Kyler will tune him out and bail. Then you are left with a coach who alienated a young QB and I don't see another Kurt Warner walking through the door. I mentioned Doug Pederson because he at least has a ring to back up his gruff manner.
 

phillycard

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That play was crazy. Sitting high above, When they first threw it, it looked like the perfect call with blockers set up for like a 20 yard gain. And then Daniels just ran away from the blockers and right into the defenders for a gain of 4.
It would have been a total tone setter Cheese. Can you imagine Kelce or Kittles on that play? Would have been NICE. Hell, Ertz woulda done more than this man. He had no business being targeted as much as he was! C'mon Kliff!!!! *getting irritated again*
 

Chopper0080

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Just stop it man. The above take is completely unreasonable, and based on nothing but your apparent personal dislike for K1.
His agent is the same agent who floated Kliff's name out there despite Kliff being on record saying he prefers the NFL over college. You don't think it is feasible for the A's to offer Kyler a courtesy spring training invitation to jack around like Russell Wilson has done a couple times?

Your ability to stick your head in the sand and complain that others reasonable critique of Kyler HAS to be a personal dislike is impressive. Or it could be that he has constantly said the idea of playing baseball still intrigues him, this would be a way to fulfill that need a bit, and he has an agent that likes to use these types of things as leverage.
 
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