Has anyone ever heard this about Amare & defense?

[carey]

I had never heard this... if it is true, it's interesting to say the least. Read the whole article here:

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2...simplified-schemes-and-changed-mind-set-fixes

Last season, according to several people in the Suns organization, the team simplified the defense schemes primarily to help Amare Stoudemire. One of Amare's issues over the years has been thinking too much and not reacting quickly enough on the defensive end of the floor. While it often appeared to the observer that he was a disinterested defender, the reality was that he simply didn't have the ability to read and react to various scenarios as they were unfolding at NBA speed.

The solution was to take all the various options for defending the screen and roll, which is the fundamental core of most NBA offenses, and boil it down to one or maybe at times two, options.

 

[sunsfan88]

I hope this "adjustment" pays off.

It would have made sense to do this from the beginning of the season since Frye/Turkoglu is not that much better than Amare defensively.

 

[AfroSuns]

This is news to me but i am not surprise, Amare is not a bright lad, which is probably a by-product of entering the draft straight from high school. Take Ellis of GSW for instance, as potent as he is on offense, you get the impression the smarts are missing..

 

[devilalum]

This is news to me but i am not surprise, Amare is not a bright lad, which is probably a by-product of entering the draft straight from high school. Take Ellis of GSW for instance, as potent as he is on offense, you get the impression the smarts are missing..

I don't think they have a college course in reading NBA pick and roll offenses.

 

[AfroSuns]

I don't think they have a college course in reading NBA pick and roll offenses.

True, but you cant argue the fact that college may have instilled some sort of BBall fundamental in him and make a complete player. Part of the reason some are advocating not drafting from high school.

 

[Folster]

I find this article hard to believe. Everyone knows Stoudemire mastered defensive rotations the summer before he completed his dissertation on Sun Tzu and leadership.

 

[WuRaider]

* Five Ways To Cover The Screen And Roll

1. Hedge and rotate

The big man who was guarding the screener jumps out and stops the ball handler from turning the corner. Ideally the ball handler will pick up his dribble. This requires full commitment and quick action by the big as they have to leave their own man and focus on stopping the ball. When the screener rolls to the basket the weak side help has to come over and prevent an easy pass and finish. When that pass is cut off, the players rotate back to their original assignments.

In this coverage the primary responsibilities are on the big man and the help defenders behind the play. This takes pressure off the guard (typically Steve Nash).

2. Show and recover

Here the big man quickly stunts out and tries to slow the ball handler just long enough for the guard but never gives up responsibility for the roll man either. This often leaves the defender in limbo as he ends up not showing hard enough to stop the ball but is still out of position to defend his man as he rolls to the basket.

3. Switch

Teams like Denver and Portland and Atlanta switch almost every screen and roll. This leaves a big man on the guard and the guard defending the screener. The Suns almost never do this.

4. Chase over screen, sag off

Here the guard follows the ball handler over the screen while the big man sags off and tries to both cut off dribble penetration and also stay in the passing lane to prevent a pass to the roll man. The Spurs do this really well with Tim Duncan. At least they used to.

5. Go under screen

Here the big man stays with the screener and essentially takes him out of the play while the guard goes under the screen. This helps deny dribble penetration and stops the screen man from rolling free to the basket. This gives the guard a wide open jump shot as he's left unguarded for a period of time. This works well against guards that can't shoot from outside or are just having a bad shooting night.

The Suns used this as a secondary option last season and probably will continue to do so again when the match-ups call for it.

Gentry, you fool. You can't run options 2,3,4 with Steve Nash as your defending PG. 1 and 5 are the ONLY options that this team can run. If they stick to it, the playoffs and a 1st round "upset" of the Spurs is possible.

 

[Bufalay]

True, but you cant argue the fact that college may have instilled some sort of BBall fundamental in him and make a complete player. Part of the reason some are advocating not drafting from high school.

Seems like there would be no better place than the NBA to learn bball fundamentals.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Seems like there would be no better place than the NBA to learn bball fundamentals.

It really isn't the best environment for that kind of learning, IMO. The influx of younger players to the NBA has created a greater need for this level of teaching but Amare is remedial even compared to his straight to the pros peers.

Usually, you have a pretty fair understanding of basketball fundamentals by the time you finish High School and Amare's unique HS background probably plays a huge role in his deficiencies. And despite what some have said, I really don't get the feeling that Amare is stupid, merely undereducated (academically and to some degree socially).

Steve

 

[slinslin]

Sounds like ********, when was the last time the Suns were a good defensive team? And also why are we a lot worse than any year with Stoudemire right now.

 

[Budden]

It really isn't the best environment for that kind of learning, IMO. The influx of younger players to the NBA has created a greater need for this level of teaching but Amare is remedial even compared to his straight to the pros peers.

Usually, you have a pretty fair understanding of basketball fundamentals by the time you finish High School and Amare's unique HS background probably plays a huge role in his deficiencies. And despite what some have said, I really don't get the feeling that Amare is stupid, merely undereducated (academically and to some degree socially).

Steve

I agree. I mean, it really makes me sad when I look at some of the players on these NBA rosters who really could've made something of themselves if they had just gone to a year or two of college. For instance, look at the list of players who were First-Team All-NBA Defense the last 2 years:

First Team All-Defense - 2009-2010:
Dwight Howard
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Rajon Rondo
Gerald Wallace

First Team All-Defense: 2008-2009
Dwight Howard
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Chris Paul
Kevin Garnett

Notice anything? That's right! Ndudi Ebi, who was drafted by the Minnesota Timberwolves in 2003 straight out of Westbury Christian High School, isn't on either of those teams. It really makes ya scratch your head and say: what if? What if Ebi had taken one year at a big state school and really focused on his academics by picking the absolute best college basketball fan in each of his courses to do all of his homework? I'm paraphrasing here, but I think I remember reading in Tom Brokaw's book "The Greatest Generation" about how much character a young adult can build by taking 8 months of his life and going to an Institution of Higher Learning, where attractive 19 and 20-year old girls will give you a reach-around (those are Brokaw's words, not mine) just to tell her friends that you let her do your laundry.

 

[Errntknght]

There is a sixth way to play the pick and roll - trap the dribbler. You usually reserve this for dribblers who are so dangerous with the ball that its the worth the risk to get it out of his hands. Unless both of the defenders involved are very adept at the trap. One of few bigs that was that adept was Oliver Miller - he was a joy to watch. Defensive 'genius' Scott Skiles couldn't see past Miller's weight problems and never used him that way.

The Suns most recent use of the screen trap was against Kobe some years ago in the playoffs. It was modestly successful when the big was Tim Thomas but much less so with anyone else. Less of a surprise is that Raja was our best small defender. Further back in time Bo Outlaw was fairly good at it though the use was very sporadic.

 

[carey]

Sounds like ********, when was the last time the Suns were a good defensive team? And also why are we a lot worse than any year with Stoudemire right now.

Uh, the article explains it. The goal was to go from ok defensively to good by making the system more complex and having different looks. Obviously it has had the opposite effect for now.

 

[slinslin]

The Suns are just a bad defense team and can't rebound.

It comes down to being undersized. But not only undersized also weak, our players are not strong in the post. I read a while ago that the Suns prevented Amare from putting up more muscle when he came into the league because they were afraid it would cost him some of his quickness. That seems to be something they do with all the players as none of our guys put up a lot of muscle while other teams probably would want someone like Robin Lopez to add 10-20 lbs to his frame.

Over the years Amare struggled the most in the post because he had to fight very hard to keep his position.

Also teams that play a fast tempo like the Suns are simply not good defensive teams. They have players releasing early to run the floor for quick points and they give up quick points by taking and missing early shots in the shot clock.

Another problem is we are horrible at getting to the freethrow line without Amare. When you shoot freethrows it is much easier to defend the next posession.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There is a sixth way to play the pick and roll - trap the dribbler. You usually reserve this for dribblers who are so dangerous with the ball that its the worth the risk to get it out of his hands. Unless both of the defenders involved are very adept at the trap. One of few bigs that was that adept was Oliver Miller - he was a joy to watch. Defensive 'genius' Scott Skiles couldn't see past Miller's weight problems and never used him that way.

The Suns most recent use of the screen trap was against Kobe some years ago in the playoffs. It was modestly successful when the big was Tim Thomas but much less so with anyone else. Less of a surprise is that Raja was our best small defender. Further back in time Bo Outlaw was fairly good at it though the use was very sporadic.

That's a bit misleading. IIRC, Skiles only had him for that one year and Scott hesitated to use him for much of anything, not just trapping the point guard. I think Skiles was trying to save the man's career but they also had to consider a worst case scenario. In our highly litigious society, I'm not sure how you convince the family or the jury that making an incredibly obese man run around chasing a 6 foot point guard was a responsible thing to do. And even if you're absolved by the court system, it would have still been a blemish on the organization to say nothing of the man himself.

I have many regrets regarding Oliver Miller. None of them have anything to do with the way Skiles treated him during his short acquaintance with the guy. If Scott had succeeded in teaching the guy the value of personal accountability, we'd have at least one true center in our history. And you are right, he was long, surprisingly agile and a perfect big for trapping the ball.

Steve

 

[devilalum]

Sounds like ********, when was the last time the Suns were a good defensive team? And also why are we a lot worse than any year with Stoudemire right now.

The first couple of years of SSOL the Suns were a very good defensive team. It was well documented and a bunch of articles were written about it. Marion was the key.

 

[BC867]

I don't think they have a college course in reading NBA pick and roll offenses.

Unlike Major League baseball (where the great majority of drafted players work their way up through the Minors), other sports (including the NBA) bring most of their draft picks directly to the big time.

College has traditionally been the Minor Leagues for basketball, football, etc.

The college course you refer to is on-the-job-training, under coaches almost as skilled as many pro coaches.

But with the lure of millions of dollars, too many young players have been opting to be drafted early, thus minimizing their "Minor League" training at the young age of 19 and 20.

Amar'e is but one example. Not only is his foundation weak, but evidently his learning skills to make up for it are as well.

 

[Bufalay]

The first couple of years of SSOL the Suns were a very good defensive team. It was well documented and a bunch of articles were written about it. Marion was the key.

The only time I remember the Suns being any good at defense was when Kurt Thomas was on the court.

 

[SunsTzu]

The only time I remember the Suns being any good at defense was when Kurt Thomas was on the court.

Yep. They weren't horrible before KT but they were about average. They were better than average with KT and only managed to go .500 after he was replaced with Tim Thomas in '06.

When KT was on the court they were able to play much more man defense.