Chaplin
Better off silent
How do you figure? Seriously.
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How do you figure? Seriously.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
I think that Mohammed is a better post-up player than Voskuhl and he is more athletic than Williams.
Plus I don't really base on his this year's performance because he had some serious injuries this year.
Chaplin
Better off silent
But doesn't this year count? I mean, this is the first year the Voskuhl has gotten some steady minutes. If you discount some years and count others, doesn't that contaminate your entire basis for the arguement?
I understand you like Nazr, and he may be more athletic than Scott Williams, but Williams is a more reliable player--this year proves it. You can't ignore the injury issue.
JCSunsfan
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What we've seen of Jake this year has only been with a bad back. I would really like to see where he will be when healthy.
I believe that Jake and Amare on the floor together will be quite effective.
Also, I think you have to figure Googs into the center rotation. I know he's a forward, but so are about half the centers in the league.
Our center rotation is not that good at the moment, but it has the potential to surprise, and to frustrate as the seasons winds down.
BTW, does anyone know any history on how players' careers go after disc surgury? Just wondered what the long term prognosis for Jake is.
I believe that Jake and Amare on the floor together will be quite effective.
Also, I think you have to figure Googs into the center rotation. I know he's a forward, but so are about half the centers in the league.
Our center rotation is not that good at the moment, but it has the potential to surprise, and to frustrate as the seasons winds down.
BTW, does anyone know any history on how players' careers go after disc surgury? Just wondered what the long term prognosis for Jake is.
Wasn't this thread about
Penny??
Penny??
capologist
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Uh, Chap, you may want to check out Scott's career stats. This is his healthiest season in almost a decade.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Actually Voskuhl got more PT last year.
His PT is a bit reduced this year and he is contributing less if you are basing on stats.
Yes, it does but we are talking about a young player who improved when he got PT.
So I think that we can rightly assume that this year was an exception because of his injuries and not the two last years.
elindholm
edited for content
Mohammed was already worse in 01-02 than he was in 00-01. Now he should be recovered from injury, but he can't earn decent minutes on an ATL club that could clearly use him.
I agree with Chaplin that Mohammed was a "one-hit wonder." I'd rather have Voskuhl. However, hcsilla is also correct that Voskuhl has been worse this year than last year.
I agree with Chaplin that Mohammed was a "one-hit wonder." I'd rather have Voskuhl. However, hcsilla is also correct that Voskuhl has been worse this year than last year.
Chaplin
Better off silent
My bad. I should have checked Jake's statistics.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
I just don't get it.
Mohammed has an entire and a half decent season as a starting C.
After he got injured and has a still acceptable season as a backup C.
Why are the 1st two seasons worth less than the last one?
Chaplin
Better off silent
Because of current events.
Should we consider Iraq and ally because 15 years ago he was? Is Penny worth the money because 4 years he was?
If I have a choice between an athlete that is looking decent and potentially having some nice statistics, and an athlete that looked great 2 years ago and looks horrendous now, who would I pick? That's a no-brainer to me.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
What do you base on that Mohammed looks horrendous while Voskuhl is looking decent?
They are putting up very similar nimbers right now the difference between them is only that Mohammed already proved (what Voskuhl still didn't) that he can be a decent starting C for a whole season.
Chaplin
Better off silent
Ok, then back to the original question. If right now Voskuhl and Mohammed cancel each other out, is Ratliff better than the Big Jake/Scott Williams combo? I don't think he is--which makes our rotation slightly better than Atlanta's, right?
hcsilla
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Of course he is because Tsakalidis played only 23 games this year and he contributed much less than Ratliff, right?
slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
I would do this deal if
1. The pick is top18 protected and Denver would only get it if Camby plays more than 120 regular season games for the Suns in the next 2 seasons. They can also have Clevelands future 1st and 2nd round pick instead.
1. The pick is top18 protected and Denver would only get it if Camby plays more than 120 regular season games for the Suns in the next 2 seasons. They can also have Clevelands future 1st and 2nd round pick instead.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
This is almost my original proposal.
slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
Oh sorry, I just noticed that this is the wrong thread.
elindholm
edited for content
Mohammed has an entire and a half decent season as a starting C.
Sorry, I just don't agree with this. His best season was 01-02. Here are his stats:
82 games played, 73 starts
Per game:
26.4 minutes
9.7 points on .461 shooting (.617 from the line)
7.9 rebounds, 0.7 blocks
0.4 assists, 1.4 turnovers, 3.1 fouls
Oh, and his team was awful.
I don't really see how those numbers are very good. He had one and a half seasons where he showed some promise, but now it looks like that was a false alarm. We're just not talking about a starting caliber player here. And now, he barely plays, even when he's healthy, which he often isn't.
Sorry, I just don't agree with this. His best season was 01-02. Here are his stats:
82 games played, 73 starts
Per game:
26.4 minutes
9.7 points on .461 shooting (.617 from the line)
7.9 rebounds, 0.7 blocks
0.4 assists, 1.4 turnovers, 3.1 fouls
Oh, and his team was awful.
I don't really see how those numbers are very good. He had one and a half seasons where he showed some promise, but now it looks like that was a false alarm. We're just not talking about a starting caliber player here. And now, he barely plays, even when he's healthy, which he often isn't.
zett
Hall of Famer
Do we have a center with better stats then that?
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
Do we have a center who play 26 minutes a game?
Perhaps if our coach-wannabe would let Jakes or Scott play 25- 30 minutes a game, they'd have better stats. You can't get good stats if your coach plays you for 15 minutes a game. I think that both Jakes and Williams could have similar stats if given playing time. (Williams would probably have to be hospitalized after 3 straight games with 30 minutes played, but that's beside the point.)
Perhaps if our coach-wannabe would let Jakes or Scott play 25- 30 minutes a game, they'd have better stats. You can't get good stats if your coach plays you for 15 minutes a game. I think that both Jakes and Williams could have similar stats if given playing time. (Williams would probably have to be hospitalized after 3 straight games with 30 minutes played, but that's beside the point.)
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Neither me.But who said that those numbers are very good?
Aren't we?
Those numbers are better than the numbers of starting C's of the next teams:
BOS,CHI,DAL,GSW,MIL,NJN,ORL,PHI,PHO,POR,SEA,UTA,WAS.
13 teams.
So I think that we are talking a starting caliber C here who has a bad year.
Chaplin
Better off silent
What's funny is that you proved that Mohammed isn't that great, Eric, and given the same amount of minutes, both Williams and even Voskuhl could have comparable statistics.
And yet, hcsilla names 12 teams, other than the Suns with worse centers.
What I don't understand is what he's trying to prove. He's trying to show that Mohammed/Ratliff is better than Big/Little Jake/Scott Williams. And so far it doesn't hold water--statistically or otherwise.
And yet, hcsilla names 12 teams, other than the Suns with worse centers.
What I don't understand is what he's trying to prove. He's trying to show that Mohammed/Ratliff is better than Big/Little Jake/Scott Williams. And so far it doesn't hold water--statistically or otherwise.
slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
Chaplin why don't you come up with 48 minute per games stats?
The fact is that Scott Williams can't play more minutes. He is only good enough for a 2-4 game streak every 20 games and Jake Voshkul usually picks up fouls too quickly to stay on the court longer.
And Jake Voshkul will never be a 10 ppg 8rpg player, because if he would teams would start to cover him defensively instead of barely taking notice.
If you can't admit that Ratliff/Mohammed is a better center rotation than Big Jake/Jake.
Mohammed has been injury plagued this season. If you hold that against him you have to admit that this one season he had was better than everything Big Jake has ever done.
Ratliff alone is still averaging 8ppg 7rpg 3bpg in 30mpg. Even playing limited minutes he leads the NBA in blocks.
Jake Voshkul is averaging 3ppg 3rpg and Scott Williams isn't any better at 4.5ppg 3rpg and 42%FG.
And those are basically numbers they put up with defense cheating on them usually.
A better indicator for example is that those centers might not average much better numbers but when they play against us they produce more than they normally do and outplay our centers.
Rasho Nesterovic was absolutely taking the Suns centers to school when we played the wolves.
And Theo Ratliff is averaging 10ppg 11rpg 3bpg 1.5spg against the Suns.
The fact is that Scott Williams can't play more minutes. He is only good enough for a 2-4 game streak every 20 games and Jake Voshkul usually picks up fouls too quickly to stay on the court longer.
And Jake Voshkul will never be a 10 ppg 8rpg player, because if he would teams would start to cover him defensively instead of barely taking notice.
If you can't admit that Ratliff/Mohammed is a better center rotation than Big Jake/Jake.
Mohammed has been injury plagued this season. If you hold that against him you have to admit that this one season he had was better than everything Big Jake has ever done.
Ratliff alone is still averaging 8ppg 7rpg 3bpg in 30mpg. Even playing limited minutes he leads the NBA in blocks.
Jake Voshkul is averaging 3ppg 3rpg and Scott Williams isn't any better at 4.5ppg 3rpg and 42%FG.
And those are basically numbers they put up with defense cheating on them usually.
A better indicator for example is that those centers might not average much better numbers but when they play against us they produce more than they normally do and outplay our centers.
Rasho Nesterovic was absolutely taking the Suns centers to school when we played the wolves.
And Theo Ratliff is averaging 10ppg 11rpg 3bpg 1.5spg against the Suns.
Chaplin
Better off silent
I thought about that, but if you know my history, you'd know that I think 48-minutes stats are basically worthless. But then again, it might be a good measuring stick as well.
Why don't we just leave it at you don't like our center rotation, I think it's not as bad as you think (but nowhere near "great").
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