Forget 40 times, follow your eyeballs!

[Krangodnzr]

"Established pass rushers Hugh Douglas, Simeon Rice, Marcellus Wiley, Michael Strahan and Rosevelt Colvin all ran pre-draft 40s of more than 4.8 seconds, according to combine reports. Rice, Strahan and Colvin weighed less than 260 pounds like Suggs."

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/03draft/0422suggs0422.html

Anyone who has ever been involved in football closely, will tell you that 40 times are coachable, and that it is mostly technique. Many players run faster than their 40 times, Some run slower (Leeland McElroy anyone?), and some run at about the same speed.

My brother has a friend who was a wide receiver at WSU. He said that the 40 time was meaningless (not because he ran a bad time) because it didn't show true football speed, only track speed. If you have ever put on pads, you know that they are cumbersome and it really affects how you run.

 

[Snakester]

I would say that Suggs is in good company with that list. I totally agree about football speed and track speed. All the pads do make it harder to run fast. I think Sugg's has got to be our #1 pick if he is there.

 

[TRW]

Good post Krang!

Very overhyped and over evaluated workout. A pass rusher needs to be explosive off the ball, quick and a sure tackler to sack the QB. Suggs was all that and a bag of chips in college but I'm not sold on him as an impact player in the NFL.

That being said, I agree that if he's there the Cards HAVE to take him. He potentially fills one of the biggest needs on this team and he's also right there in the "best available athlete" mode. Hopefully he will be great for many, many years for the Cards.

Please, God, just ONE time!!!!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I guarantee you

I guarantee you that Hugh Douglas, Simeon Rice, Marcellus Wiley, Michael Strahan and Rosevelt Colvin all did more than 18 bench reps.

You have your Dwaight Freeney fast guys.

The guys you listed are all very strong and can disengage from NFL quality blockers...especially Strahan.



Say it with me people, Suggs is weaker than many NFL corners and wide receivers...that is the big problem...not his 40 time.

 

[Goldfield]

Very nice post, I didnt know that those other guys were timed so slow... Very incuraging for me...


They need to start doing the 40 time in pads cleats, and on grass...


Actully they need to get rid of that stupid thing, and time players in the same conditions as their position demands...

 

[General Chaos]

Re: I guarantee you

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
I guarantee you that Hugh Douglas, Simeon Rice, Marcellus Wiley, Michael Strahan and Rosevelt Colvin all did more than 18 bench reps.

You have your Dwaight Freeney fast guys.

The guys you listed are all very strong and can disengage from NFL quality blockers...especially Strahan.



Say it with me people, Suggs is weaker than many NFL corners and wide receivers...that is the big problem...not his 40 time.

The thing I dont think reps determine strength that well. Suppose a player is more of a bull dozer type and can retain that level of intensity for five seconds. He could stilll only do 18 reps because it tests endurance not pure strength. For d-linemen I think a max lift wi=ould be more telling.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Okay this is even sillier

I see...

Since Suggs workout sucked...

The combine must be testing the wrong things.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Re: Okay this is even sillier

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
I see...

Since Suggs workout sucked...

The combine must be testing the wrong things.

EXACTLY!

I'm glad that a Leftwicher finally got it! Us Suggians have rationalized that the combine testing standards have been fouled for quite some time...well, at least since Suggs fumbled his opportunities at peak performance that is...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: I guarantee you

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
I guarantee you that Hugh Douglas, Simeon Rice, Marcellus Wiley, Michael Strahan and Rosevelt Colvin all did more than 18 bench reps.

You have your Dwaight Freeney fast guys.

The guys you listed are all very strong and can disengage from NFL quality blockers...especially Strahan.



Say it with me people, Suggs is weaker than many NFL corners and wide receivers...that is the big problem...not his 40 time.

Read the article....I didn't compile that list.

And Peppers, possibly the best defensive end to come out in 10 years only benched 19 times.

 

[General Chaos]

Thank You I was drowning there in my argument regarding combine lifting.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Another poor example

Peppers ran a 4.65 at the combine

Which was considered slow for a weak end...

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Leftwicher?

Actually I have long said it needs to be Leftwich or Suggs because they are the impact players....

BUT...that was until Suggs basically convinced me he isn't a impact player.

Now it is take the best guy or trade down. That depends on your opinion of the Cardinals this year. If you think they can win now, you trade down and get many players to fill holes.

If you think they will suck next year...then you take the best guy there.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Another poor example

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Peppers ran a 4.65 at the combine

Which was considered slow for a weak end...

Umm no he didn't. Peppers ran a 4.7

You really are stuck on workout numbers. Follow your eyeballs.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Leftwicher?

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Actually I have long said it needs to be Leftwich or Suggs because they are the impact players....

BUT...that was until Suggs basically convinced me he isn't a impact player.

I'm going to laugh everytime Suggs gets a big sack, as I think about how wrong you will be.

But I might just take Leftwich if available instead. He is, imo, the surest thing at the top of the draft.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Oh and

Peppers is 6'6" and 283, which is why he ran a "poor" 4.65.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Oh and

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Peppers is 6'6" and 283, which is why he ran a "poor" 4.65.

Yeah, and Peppers has virtually no technique.....

 

[General Chaos]

Suggs is not a finished player yet. He is only 20 years old. I've said this before, he can get sronger, and work on his straight line speed.

The good thing is that he excels in the areas which cannot be taught. His initial quickness is second to none. He also has great pass rusher instincts. He will be a froce in the NFL, hopefully in cardinal red.

 

[SECTION 11]

Re: Oh and

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Peppers is 6'6" and 283, which is why he ran a "poor" 4.65.

Suggs and Peppers don't even belong on the same thread.
I really, truly believe this.

The attraction to Suggs at #6 is just boggling to me.

 

[Krangodnzr]

AGILITY TESTS
4.74 in the 40-yard dash…34 1/8-inch arm length…10-inch hands…Right-handed…18 Wonderlic score.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/football/nfl/2002/draft/profiles/peppers_julius.htm

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
AGILITY TESTS
4.74 in the 40-yard dash…34 1/8-inch arm length…10-inch hands…Right-handed…18 Wonderlic score.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/football/nfl/2002/draft/profiles/peppers_julius.htm

Peppers numbers.....didn't run CLOSE to a 4.65.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Oh and

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Suggs and Peppers don't even belong on the same thread.
I really, truly believe this.

The attraction to Suggs at #6 is just boggling to me.

Uhmm....24 sacks....30 TFLs.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Laugh if you will

Like I said...Suggs will be a "nice" player. So I guess by my estimation, you will get to laugh about every other game because I think he will get 8-10 sacks a year.

I will be astounded if he is a dominant end.

And I am an ASU fan and I do go to the games. I am also laying off the ASU kool-aid and looking at Suggs far more objectively than many of you.

Remember, I WAS a Suggs supporter. But if Suggs didn't go to ASU..would anyone want a small defensive end that runs a 4.85 40 and can only do 18 reps? Sure...but not at #6. You can't ignore Suggs college production, but you can't ignore his lack of physical talent either.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Laugh if you will

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Like I said...Suggs will be a "nice" player. So I guess by my estimation, you will get to laugh about every other game because I think he will get 8-10 sacks a year.

I will be astounded if he is a dominant end.

And I am an ASU fan and I do go to the games. I am also laying off the ASU kool-aid and looking at Suggs far more objectively than many of you.

Remember, I WAS a Suggs supporter. But if Suggs didn't go to ASU..would anyone want a small defensive end that runs a 4.85 40 and can only do 18 reps? Sure...but not at #6. You can't ignore Suggs college production, but you can't ignore his lack of physical talent either.

Oh I am looking at it objectively. I don't want a guy who can run a 4.6 and bench 40 times, but can't do ****. I want a guy who is proven, and effective.

I am not scared by a stupid 4.85 40 time. It is totally meaningless. It proves nothing.

 

[General Chaos]

Haynes the second rated DE ran his 40 in 4.71. So 0.1 less than suggs. He did 5 more reps. And he had 10 less sacks than suggs. Why does this nuber not count to some of you.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by General Chaos
Haynes the second rated DE ran his 40 in 4.71. So 0.1 less than suggs. He did 5 more reps. And he had 10 less sacks than suggs. Why does this nuber not count to some of you.

See this exactly what many of those jumping off the Suggs bandwagon are missing.

Haynes plays NO WHERE CLOSE to as fast as Suggs, yet many would claim that because of a stupid track race, that Haynes is faster.