Drafting Backwards - The Defense

MadCardDisease

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Great! We're punting on two full seasons and hope to be good after that. Because, in the NFL, it's known you need multiple seasons before you can hope to recover and contend again :sarcasm:

Monti wasn't able to fully implement his system and bring in his guys. There just wasn't enough time to do so before FA and the draft started after he was hired. So he had to rely on a lot of the work done by the prior staff with regards to the draft and player evaluation.

There are already big changes happening to the player personnel department now that the draft is complete. Monti is now starting to fully implement his model for how his player personnel staff will scout players. I'm hearing that before the summer is over we will also see some changes/additions to names in the scouting department.
 

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Monti wasn't able to fully implement his system and bring in his guys. There just wasn't enough time to do so before FA and the draft started after he was hired. So he had to rely on a lot of the work done by the prior staff with regards to the draft and player evaluation.

There are already big changes happening to the player personnel department now that the draft is complete. Monti is now starting to fully implement his model for how his player personnel staff will scout players. I'm hearing that before the summer is over we will also see some changes/additions to names in the scouting department.

I don't really understand the argument that were punting on multiple season. This franchise has punted on about 80% of its seasons.

If it takes 2 seasons (or 3 or 4) to properly restructure this org so we can be consistently good who cares?
 

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I don't really understand the argument that were punting on multiple season. This franchise has punted on about 80% of its seasons.

If it takes 2 seasons (or 3 or 4) to properly restructure this org so we can be consistently good who cares?
Some of us who will be watching from the other side by then :mrgreen: Get off my lawn young whippersnapper! LOL
 

ASUCHRIS

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If it takes 2 seasons (or 3 or 4) to properly restructure this org so we can be consistently good who cares?
You're assuming the pot of gold on the other side of the rainbow. What if they enact all these changes and are terrible anyway?

Good for job security if you can talk FO into it.
 

kerouac9

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I don't really understand the argument that were punting on multiple season. This franchise has punted on about 80% of its seasons.

If it takes 2 seasons (or 3 or 4) to properly restructure this org so we can be consistently good who cares?
I think it's because the "consistently good" part is speculative, but being comfortable being extremely bad is assured. The Houston Texans are entering their third season of a rebuild and many here expect them to be extremely bad again.

So which of the past 10 seasons under Keim did the Arizona Cardinals punt on? Or go back 20 years to where Rod Graves took control and was running a lot of the day-to-day without Bill and as Michael was coming in charge.

I'm still looking for the positive example of a team "bottoming out" and then becoming consistently good. What is the model?
 

PACardsFan

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"We could sign some guys to fill the ever expanding holes and make a playoff push" is Keim's mantra and exactly why we lived in perpetual mediocrity.

I do not understand how after years of complaining about how Keim operates people are calling for more of the same.
This is 1000% accurate. It boggles my mind that some of you can’t figure this out. Michael, Monti, and Gannon have said from DAY 1 that they would build this team EMPHASIZING the impact positions of OL, Edge, and CB. And magically, we drafted OL, edge, and CB with our 1st 3 picks. Other than the first couple years of BASK, this team was put together with bandaids because BA wrongly convinced MB that we were a player or two from winning a SB. I would be shocked if Michael ever returns to that approach. Unless, it’s blatantly obvious that we are indeed a player or two away.
 

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I think it's because the "consistently good" part is speculative, but being comfortable being extremely bad is assured. The Houston Texans are entering their third season of a rebuild and many here expect them to be extremely bad again.

So which of the past 10 seasons under Keim did the Arizona Cardinals punt on? Or go back 20 years to where Rod Graves took control and was running a lot of the day-to-day without Bill and as Michael was coming in charge.

I'm still looking for the positive example of a team "bottoming out" and then becoming consistently good. What is the model?

They didn't intentionally punt, that's probably part of the problem. But via a mixture of bad GMs or HCs they have been unintentionally punting for most of their existence. Everyone else knew it, just not them.

Teams bottoming out then becoming good? The Bengals and Jags just in recent history. Rams? I'm sure there are plenty more.
 

slanidrac16

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I think most of us here understand tanking. I think that most of us would be happy to put just a couple of pieces in place that would lessen the burden for next year. There will be a lot of holes to fill next year too.

A guy like Ben Jones could be a corner piece for more than a couple of years. If kyler is ready by say the 4th game he might not make it the game 5 behind this line.
 

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They didn't intentionally punt, that's probably part of the problem. But via a mixture of bad GMs or HCs they have been unintentionally punting for most of their existence. Everyone else knew it, just not them.

Teams bottoming out then becoming good? The Bengals and Jags just in recent history. Rams? I'm sure there are plenty more.
Are the Jags good? They went 9-8 last season in a division where maybe two teams were taking? Are they set up to be "consistently good"?

Were the 2019 Bengals bad on purpose?

What makes these examples espeically deranged is that neither of these teams had a franchise quarterback in place. The Bengals had Andy Dalton transitioning into his old age and the Jaguars were playing QB roulette with Nick Foles and Garnder Minshew. They definitely weren't intending on bottoming out when they hired Urban Meyer.

The Rams went 11-5 in their first season under Sean McVay. Tell me another one.
 

Stout

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Monti wasn't able to fully implement his system and bring in his guys. There just wasn't enough time to do so before FA and the draft started after he was hired. So he had to rely on a lot of the work done by the prior staff with regards to the draft and player evaluation.

There are already big changes happening to the player personnel department now that the draft is complete. Monti is now starting to fully implement his model for how his player personnel staff will scout players. I'm hearing that before the summer is over we will also see some changes/additions to names in the scouting department.
I'm sorry, but I'm not ready to just surrender a second rebuild season because this pathetic team was too slow at everything (it started pre-Monti, but he took the job, after all) to get going in time. That is simply not an excuse. Not enough time, had to run on a skeleton staff of your own, had to work with the prior regime? Then freaking make it work. If he's a GM worth half his salt, he would have had his eye on the FA market and have some ideas that a series of meetings with the coaching staff could hash out. There was no excuse to punt completely on FA. Sorry, that's going to hose us for NEXT season, so no. They get one year, then they compete. Period.
 

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I don't really understand the argument that were punting on multiple season. This franchise has punted on about 80% of its seasons.

If it takes 2 seasons (or 3 or 4) to properly restructure this org so we can be consistently good who cares?
If it takes that long, then we don't have people capable of making it happen and we won't be consistently good. This is the modern NFL and only lousy coaches/FOs can't turn it around quicker than that. When you have the right people in charge making the right decisions, there's no excuse for 2-4 year rebuilds.
 

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The offense on paper at least certainly has the talent to make the season watchable and perhaps surprisingly competitive in more games than we expect. That obviously is contingent on Kyler not missing a large portion of the season and the new coaching staff doing a better job than Kliff.

But yes, I'm fully expecting the defense to be pretty awful. However, most of us here also thought VJ was horrendous, so perhaps improved coaching will result in the defense improving to a degree as the season progresses.
 

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I don't really understand the argument that were punting on multiple season. This franchise has punted on about 80% of its seasons.

If it takes 2 seasons (or 3 or 4) to properly restructure this org so we can be consistently good who cares?
You're right, if we build a consistent winner then it will be worth it. If it fails well at least they tried something new. I mean should we have just stuck with the status quo? I think we all know how that end up.
 

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I'm sorry, but I'm not ready to just surrender a second rebuild season because this pathetic team was too slow at everything (it started pre-Monti, but he took the job, after all) to get going in time. That is simply not an excuse. Not enough time, had to run on a skeleton staff of your own, had to work with the prior regime? Then freaking make it work. If he's a GM worth half his salt, he would have had his eye on the FA market and have some ideas that a series of meetings with the coaching staff could hash out. There was no excuse to punt completely on FA. Sorry, that's going to hose us for NEXT season, so no. They get one year, then they compete. Period, OR ELSE!
FTFY

They get as long as Michael gives them. I don't consider them "punting" on anything. I believe this was the plan all along. I also believe that this is the plan MO sold to Michael and company, and they bought into it. Rather it is right or wrong nobody knows. But to say they get one year is comical at best. If this works and we win a super bowl in the next 5 years, what you stated above would be made fun of and forever be known as the "STOUT". Ok not really, but it is easy to say it is wrong or it won't work and you'll be right 99% of the time. But there is that 1% chance it works.
 
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If it takes that long, then we don't have people capable of making it happen and we won't be consistently good. This is the modern NFL and only lousy coaches/FOs can't turn it around quicker than that. When you have the right people in charge making the right decisions, there's no excuse for 2-4 year rebuilds.

You think new GM's can turn around several years of bad roster construction and cap management and poor drafting in a single season? Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
 

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FTFY

They get as long as Michael gives them. I don't consider them "punting" on anything. I believe this was the plan all along. I also believe that this is the plan MO sold to Michael and company, and they bought into it. Rather it is right or wrong nobody knows. But to say they get one year is comical at best. If this works and we win a super bowl in the next 5 years, what you stated above would be made fun of and forever be known as the "STOUT". Ok not really, but it is easy to say it is wrong or it won't work and you'll be right 99% of the time. But there is that 1% chance it works.
1% lol You're not really selling the plan, man :)

So you don't consider this current FA a waste? What have we done to help the roster beyond helping it tank? What did we do in FA that will help this team past this lost season? Nothing. If that was the plan, it was bad, IMO.
 

Stout

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You think new GM's can turn around several years of bad roster construction and cap management and poor drafting in a single season? Sorry, but I strongly disagree.
Great, you strongly disagree with something I didn't say! Turning it around in a single season would have us competing in 2023. You and I both know I've never advocated for that. Turning it around in two seasons means competing in 2024. If we can't compete in 2024, Gannon, Monti and co haven't done their jobs right.
 

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why would an organization factor in, the older fans life expectancy

I’m old as well, but I wanted change from the prior management. i got change which is more than I could have hope. As a fan, I’ll worry about the 2025 season when 2024 has come to an end. Until then, I find 2024 most interesting…

for those who can predict the future good for you as I can rarely get tomorrow right even with a plan…
 

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Great, you strongly disagree with something I didn't say! Turning it around in a single season would have us competing in 2023. You and I both know I've never advocated for that. Turning it around in two seasons means competing in 2024. If we can't compete in 2024, Gannon, Monti and co haven't done their jobs right.

So 2 is ok? Because above you said "there's no excuse for 2-4 year rebuilds"
 

Stout

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So 2 is ok? Because above you said "there's no excuse for 2-4 year rebuilds"
OMG, I've been crystal clear on the board maaaaany times. We're not turning it around in year 1, which would be an immediate rebuild. We should be able to turn it around after then, so the 2nd year should be a compete year, not a rebuild year. A 2 year or more rebuild would mean we are not competitive in 2024. There is no excuse not to be competitive in 2024 and no reason to forgive the franchise for planning not to be.

Suck year one? Okay. Continuing to suck and "rebuilding" in year two? Not okay. Simple, easy to understand.
 

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OMG, I've been crystal clear on the board maaaaany times. We're not turning it around in year 1, which would be an immediate rebuild. We should be able to turn it around after then, so the 2nd year should be a compete year, not a rebuild year. A 2 year or more rebuild would mean we are not competitive in 2024. There is no excuse not to be competitive in 2024 and no reason to forgive the franchise for planning not to be.

Suck year one? Okay. Continuing to suck and "rebuilding" in year two? Not okay. Simple, easy to understand.
I agree with you that especially in the NFL, team turnarounds can be relatively quick. But, keep in mind, that a 2 year turnaround will require the use of some bandaids. And I’m pretty certain that Bidwill & MOJG will do their best to avoid relying on that approach. A big part of this turnaround is expected to come from a completely revamped scouting department, and MO has just now started this process. In this last draft, MO was forced to use scouting information from a failed Keim regime. So, in many ways, MO’s full plan doesn’t start until he‘s fully implemented whatever changes he’s going to make with the scouting department. I think the Cardinals are using the Eagles turnaround as a blueprint, especially since JG was part of that. The Eagles worked on improving the offense more in year 1, as JG convinced the Eagles that he could make their D at least serviceable. And after a very slow start, their offense started taking shape, especially their running game, and they actually snuck into the playoffs with a very average D. In year 2 they concentrated more on the D, albeit they had to sign a couple of veteran DL because they were being gashed on the ground early on. The Eagles did almost steal a Championship, but it certainly did help that they had the easiest schedule in the NFL & that the NFC was a joke come playoff time. Time will tell if what the Eagles did was sustainable. But, it would appear that they just had back to back great drafts. And that’s the key. Like any franchise, you have to draft well for sustainable success. And after multiple poor drafts, it could take multiple good drafts for the Cardinals to see sustainable success.
 
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I agree with you that especially in the NFL, team turnarounds can be relatively quick. But, keep in mind, that a 2 year turnaround will require the use of some bandaids. And I’m pretty certain that Bidwill & MOJG will do their best to avoid relying on that approach. A big part of this turnaround is expected to come from a completely revamped scouting department, and MO has just now started this process. In this last draft, MO was forced to use scouting information from a failed Keim regime. So, in many ways, MO’s full plan doesn’t start until he‘s fully implemented whatever changes he’s going to make with the scouting department. I think the Cardinals are using the Eagles turnaround as a blueprint, especially since JG was part of that. The Eagles worked on improving the offense more in year 1, as JG convinced the Eagles that he could make their D at least serviceable. And after a very slow start, their offense started taking shape, especially their running game, and they actually snuck into the playoffs with a very average D. In year 2 they concentrated more on the D, albeit they had to sign a couple of veteran DL because they were being gashed on the ground early on. The Eagles did almost steal a Championship, but it certainly did help that they had the easiest schedule in the NFL & that the NFC was a joke come playoff time. Time will tell if what the Eagles did was sustainable. But, it would appear that they just had back to back great drafts. And that’s the key. Like any franchise, you have to draft well for sustainable success. And after multiple poor drafts, it could take multiple good drafts for the Cardinals to see sustainable success.
It all hangs on the QB. If Murray gets religion and turns into a productive, somewhat durable QB then they could compete with good FAs and a great draft. If they conclude they have to start over and draft a QB they likely won‘t be competitive in 2024. I think you can stop worrying about the record and focus on the QB play.
 
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