Deandre Ayton on Defense

[CardsSunsDbacks]

So there has been a lot of talk on this board about the play of Deandre Ayton so far this season and it seems to be mostly negative, but he has shown some real progress on defense this year and the numbers back that up.

So far this season Ayton is tied for the highest Defensive FG% in the league at 33.3% (among players defending at least 5 shots per game, Ayton is defending 17.6). The players that are shooting that percentage on him have an accumulative average of 46.1% on the year making for a -12.8 dip when guarded by Ayton (That number is also the best in the league).

Last season players shot 48.7% when defended by Ayton for a 0.0% difference on their normal FG%.

Also looking at some on/off stats, the team has a defensive rating of 103 when Ayton is on the floor, but that number is 111.5 when he is off the floor (8.5 points per 100 better on defense with Ayton out there).

The sample is still small, but the impact he has made on defense, not to mention the strides he has made on that end, need to be recognized. Especially with the amount of attention being paid to his shortcomings thus far.

Here is a link to the DFG% stats that I referenced:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=D_FGA*GE*5&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular Season

Here is a link to the on/off stats that I referenced:

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612756/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=DIFF_NET_RATING&dir=1

Edit: Just want to point out that the point of this is by no means to say that he is actually the best in the league in DFG%, but mainly to point out just how much improvement he has made in this regard.

 

[JCSunsfan]

OK. I will take the positive and be pleased so far. However, Ayton's stats are really skewed compared to the rest of the league so far this year because of the small sample size.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

OK. I will take the positive and be pleased so far. However, Ayton's stats are really skewed compared to the rest of the league so far this year because of the small sample size.

Of course it is a small sample, but just compare it to what he was doing last season.

Last year teams were routinely having games where they shot 50+% when guarded by Ayton.

This year only once has a team reached 50% while being guarded by him and the next highest percentage is 41%. It's a clear area of improvement at this point.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Of course it is a small sample, but just compare it to what he was doing last season.

Last year teams were routinely having games where they shot 50+% when guarded by Ayton.

This year only once has a team reached 50% while being guarded by him and the next highest percentage is 41%. It's a clear area of improvement at this point.

His defense certainly has improved...from what I've seen. Everything else, though, has hit a plateau or regressed, which is why everyone is down on him thus far.

 

[JCSunsfan]

His defense has improved, his offense has regressed.

To be fair, it is probably the fourth offense in four years of play.

High school offense.
UofA offense.
Igor offense.
Monty offense.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

His defense certainly has improved...from what I've seen. Everything else, though, has hit a plateau or regressed, which is why everyone is down on him thus far.

I'm not terribly worried about his offense at this point. It can take some time to work your way back into form on the offensive end, especially when you shoot so many jumpers. Of course I would like to see less jumpers, but he will start to make them much more consistently as he gets back into form.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

His defense has improved, his offense has regressed.

To be fair, it is probably the fourth offense in four years of play.

High school offense.
UofA offense.
Igor offense.
Monty offense.

That can certainly be part of it, but we need to remember that this is his first actual stretch of play this season (only 6 games so far).

It can take some time to get back into game shape and he is working on that while also getting used to the system and lineups as well.

 

[1Sun]

His defense has improved, his offense has regressed.

To be fair, it is probably the fourth offense in four years of play.

High school offense.
UofA offense.
Igor offense.
Monty offense.

And only one of those offenses is even remotely legitimate...

 

[Sunstroke]

I've seen some improvement on defense. He has altered opposing shots, shown some effort in blocking shots.
I get he's still learning rotation switches. That will take time. My only question is his willingness to get physical, box out,
engage the contact. He plays like he's afraid to have a foul called on him. I'm rooting for this kid and the Suns. Hopefully he's just
a slow learner and that it will all click for him sooner than later. C'mon Ayton! and Go Suns!

 

[JCSunsfan]

I've seen some improvement on defense. He has altered opposing shots, shown some effort in blocking shots.
I get he's still learning rotation switches. That will take time. My only question is his willingness to get physical, box out,
engage the contact. He plays like he's afraid to have a foul called on him. I'm rooting for this kid and the Suns. Hopefully he's just
a slow learner and that it will all click for him sooner than later. C'mon Ayton! and Go Suns!

Yes. He plays exactly like that. Maybe Monty should tell him that he doesn't care if he fouls out. Just go out and play aggressive.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I appreciate this being posted. I readily admit that I’m not an expert at some of these stats and rely on what I see. But I am also not so obtuse to ignore statistical data. If the stats are good ones - and by that I mean the type of stats are relied upon by the sports geeks that came up with moneyball type analysis - I trust them and appreciate them. I’ll still question his effort from what I actually see when watching, but this does provide me some level of comfort that there’s improvement (particularly in light of his otherwise offensive regression).

this is a good thread for people to update throughout the season like the kyler trends thread on the cardinals board. Might help to dampen some of our (at least my) frustration from game to game.

 

[Suns_fan69]

As mentioned, it's still early with a small sample sign, but certainly the trend looks promising. From the eye-test of the couple games I've watched, I am not sure he's drastically better than last year as the numbers would suggest. It looks like he's still a top-notch on ball defender but struggles on switches and rotations. Can anyone who's seen more of his game this year confirm/deny?

 

[Phrazbit]

As mentioned, it's still early with a small sample sign, but certainly the trend looks promising. From the eye-test of the couple games I've watched, I am not sure he's drastically better than last year as the numbers would suggest. It looks like he's still a top-notch on ball defender but struggles on switches and rotations. Can anyone who's seen more of his game this year confirm/deny?

My eye test absolutely matches the numbers.

He has been a brick wall on defense, the dude has been shutting down penetration left and right and has been probably our best player at regularly challenging shots without committing stupid fouls.

And the eye test is also accurate on his offensive stats. Last season he was one of the league leaders in shooting efficiency, this year, so far, he is hot garbage. I am trying to make sense of his offensive disaster so far, it mainly revolves around his terrible habit of rapidly tossing up long jumpers. I feel like he has taken the ".5 seconds" mantra too close to heart, he's forgotten that is not merely to shoot or pass in .5 seconds but he can also attack.

 

[JCSunsfan]

My eye test absolutely matches the numbers.

He has been a brick wall on defense, the dude has been shutting down penetration left and right and has been probably our best player at regularly challenging shots without committing stupid fouls.

And the eye test is also accurate on his offensive stats. Last season he was one of the league leaders in shooting efficiency, this year, so far, he is hot garbage. I am trying to make sense of his offensive disaster so far, it mainly revolves around his terrible habit of rapidly tossing up long jumpers. I feel like he has taken the ".5 seconds" mantra too close to heart, he's forgotten that is not merely to shoot or pass in .5 seconds but he can also attack.

He looks like he is still trying to run Igors blender thing. He also seems like he wants to play like a pf on his offense rather than a center. He doesn’t have much confidence in the ability of his teammates to get him the ball down low and he does not do well getting himself open down low.
It’s like he never learned how to run the pick and roll.

The kid does have a confidence issue. There is no other way of explaining all those threes we see him shooting in practice and he is yet to attempt one in a game.

If he will just dive hard to the rim 75% of the time after setting a pick for Rubio, the entire offense will change.

this actually should be encouraging. Defense was our biggest concern for him as a player. Defense is also where true lack of aggression shows itself. I gotta believe the offense will come.

 

[SirStefan32]

He looks like he is still trying to run Igors blender thing. He also seems like he wants to play like a pf on his offense rather than a center. He doesn’t have much confidence in the ability of his teammates to get him the ball down low and he does not do well getting himself open down low.
It’s like he never learned how to run the pick and roll.

The kid does have a confidence issue. There is no other way of explaining all those threes we see him shooting in practice and he is yet to attempt one in a game.

If he will just dive hard to the rim 75% of the time after setting a pick for Rubio, the entire offense will change.

this actually should be encouraging. Defense was our biggest concern for him as a player. Defense is also where true lack of aggression shows itself. I gotta believe the offense will come.

This is spot on, especially the last paragraph.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

He looks like he is still trying to run Igors blender thing. He also seems like he wants to play like a pf on his offense rather than a center. He doesn’t have much confidence in the ability of his teammates to get him the ball down low and he does not do well getting himself open down low.
It’s like he never learned how to run the pick and roll.

The kid does have a confidence issue. There is no other way of explaining all those threes we see him shooting in practice and he is yet to attempt one in a game.

If he will just dive hard to the rim 75% of the time after setting a pick for Rubio, the entire offense will change.

this actually should be encouraging. Defense was our biggest concern for him as a player. Defense is also where true lack of aggression shows itself. I gotta believe the offense will come.

The 3pt thing shooting is a tad odd since it appears Baynes apparently has the green light to shoot as many as he wants.

 

[Yuma]

My son was at the last game and he came away with the following observations about Ayton:

"He looks about 4 inches taller than everyone on the court!"
"You can see live, more than TV, how he looks like he is playing soft."

My son likes Ayton, FWIW.

I have noticed he takes way more fade away jumpers rather than jumping into guy to get fouls.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I have noticed he takes way more fade away jumpers rather than jumping into guy to get fouls.

and by “more” I assume you mean “any.” I have never seen Ayton purposefully draw contact.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

OMG fumbles the entry pass and then rather than pass it back out or reestablish post position just puts up a useless Contested 12 footer

 

[BC867]

and by “more” I assume you mean “any.” I have never seen Ayton purposefully draw contact.

Evidently, Ayton has been hearing the right words from Big Man coach Mark Bryant during his suspension.

Phoenix Suns assistant Mark Bryant’s motto for Deandre Ayton was simple, but direct and to the point.

There’s times where you need to use your finesse and there’s time you just need to beast somebody,” he said. “I’m trying let him know when it’s time to beast. Like before we play a team, I’m like, ‘Hey man, this guy right here, you need to beast him. For this guy right here, you need to check his footwork.’

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...andre-ayton-suns-big-men-grinding/2491664001/

An attitude adjustment either happens or it doesn't. Not after a year.

Some posters' alibi of 'just give him time' is meaningless. Deandre has shown no signs of buying in.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Evidently, Ayton has been hearing the right words from Big Man coach Mark Bryant during his suspension.





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Evidently, Ayton has been hearing the right words from Big Man coach Mark Bryant during his suspension.





https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...andre-ayton-suns-big-men-grinding/2491664001/

An attitude adjustment either happens or it doesn't. Not after a year.

Some posters' alibi of 'just give him time' is meaningless. Deandre has shown no signs of buying in.

?So. If not giving him more time, then do what? What do you want to do with him?

I get the disappointment with Ayton, being the #1 pick and with Doncic doing so well, but you would think from these posts that he is a complete bust. These are just the facts with regard to Ayton.

1. He has nearly doubled his shot blocking from last year. Up from .9 to 1.6.
2. His rebounding is up 1 board per game in less minutes.
3. His assists are up slightly in less minutes and his turnovers have dropped slightly.
4. His scoring has dropped by about a point per game.
5. His offensive efficiency has dropped slightly.

I am not going to get overly excited about his defensive improvement, but I am surely not going to get upset about it all either.

He is not starting. That is probably good. Young players need to do everything the coach asks. He is finishing games and making a huge difference in games. Ayton made a huge difference in the last two games in the final minute getting key rebounds and playing smart D (yes smart D) in the final seconds.

Saying that an attitude adjustment does not change after a year is just wrong. He is showing changes in LOTS of ways, especially defense, which was our biggest worry.

He is not Doncic, but he is an exceptional young player.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

?So. If not giving him more time, then do what? What do you want to do with him?

I get the disappointment with Ayton, being the #1 pick and with Doncic doing so well, but you would think from these posts that he is a complete bust. These are just the facts with regard to Ayton.

1. He has nearly doubled his shot blocking from last year. Up from .9 to 1.6.
2. His rebounding is up 1 board per game in less minutes.
3. His assists are up slightly in less minutes and his turnovers have dropped slightly.
4. His scoring has dropped by about a point per game.
5. His offensive efficiency has dropped slightly.

I am not going to get overly excited about his defensive improvement, but I am surely not going to get upset about it all either.

He is not starting. That is probably good. Young players need to do everything the coach asks. He is finishing games and making a huge difference in games. Ayton made a huge difference in the last two games in the final minute getting key rebounds and playing smart D (yes smart D) in the final seconds.

Saying that an attitude adjustment does not change after a year is just wrong. He is showing changes in LOTS of ways, especially defense, which was our biggest worry.

He is not Doncic, but he is an exceptional young player.

I see the draft as this tier right now

Tier 1 Superstar / MVP

Doncic

Tier 2 Perennial All Star

Young

Might Make an All Star

Ayton
Bagley
Jackson

Good Second / Third Option

Shia
Carter

So yes he still ends up being like the 3rd through 5th best player though Shia might keep climbing.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I see the draft as this tier right now

Tier 1 Superstar / MVP

Doncic

Tier 2 Perennial All Star

Young

Might Make an All Star

Ayton
Bagley
Jackson

Good Second / Third Option

Shia
Carter

So yes he still ends up being like the 3rd through 5th best player though Shia might keep climbing.

It's just so premature for this IMO. How would we have been talking about Kawhi, Giannis or George in their 2nd season? Obviously they weren't the #1 pick, but that doesn't change the fact that we can't really be certain of what we have in Ayton this early.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

That is just how the tiers look now. Obviously he can move up or god forbid he gets suspended again way down.

 

[GatorAZ]

I see the draft as this tier right now

Tier 1 Superstar / MVP

Doncic

Tier 2 Perennial All Star

Young

Might Make an All Star

Ayton
Bagley
Jackson

Good Second / Third Option

Shia
Carter

So yes he still ends up being like the 3rd through 5th best player though Shia might keep climbing.

*Shai is an a higher tier if we’re talking right now. What remains to be seen is if he can play this well on the ball since CP3 has been handling those duties...

If only @Mainstreet was our GM when we traded up...