Bad mix

bk3000

Newbie
Joined
Jan 9, 2024
Posts
1
Reaction score
6
Location
Tucson
The Suns have a bad mix of players. Durant, Beal and Booker are basically are same guy three times over: shoot first, often indifferent defense, underwhelming rebounding. Booker got zero rebounds the past two games. If you play 70 or so minutes over two games, the ball is going to fall into your hands three or four times. He also is not a point guard and turns over the ball too much. The Suns, with some of their players not exactly being defensive stalwarts, need a shot blocker behind them. Nurkic is a good player, but he is not that. (Ayton was.) Also, Booker and Durant yelling at and scowling at their teammates throughout games adds to a team with negative chemistry. This team is going nowhere fast. Luka humiliated them on Christmas day in their house, and that kind of stuff is only going to get worse.
 

jf-08

Guy Smiley
Administrator
Super Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
26,017
Reaction score
20,143
Location
Eye in the Sky
The Suns have a bad mix of players. Durant, Beal and Booker are basically are same guy three times over: shoot first, often indifferent defense, underwhelming rebounding. Booker got zero rebounds the past two games. If you play 70 or so minutes over two games, the ball is going to fall into your hands three or four times. He also is not a point guard and turns over the ball too much. The Suns, with some of their players not exactly being defensive stalwarts, need a shot blocker behind them. Nurkic is a good player, but he is not that. (Ayton was.) Also, Booker and Durant yelling at and scowling at their teammates throughout games adds to a team with negative chemistry. This team is going nowhere fast. Luka humiliated them on Christmas day in their house, and that kind of stuff is only going to get worse.
Can't argue with any of this. Welcome aboard!
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
11,542
Reaction score
9,070
The Suns have a bad mix of players. Durant, Beal and Booker are basically are same guy three times over: shoot first, often indifferent defense, underwhelming rebounding. Booker got zero rebounds the past two games. If you play 70 or so minutes over two games, the ball is going to fall into your hands three or four times. He also is not a point guard and turns over the ball too much. The Suns, with some of their players not exactly being defensive stalwarts, need a shot blocker behind them. Nurkic is a good player, but he is not that. (Ayton was.) Also, Booker and Durant yelling at and scowling at their teammates throughout games adds to a team with negative chemistry. This team is going nowhere fast. Luka humiliated them on Christmas day in their house, and that kind of stuff is only going to get worse.
Yep. unfortunately I agree.

Booker and Beal are not playing to their potential somewhat because of the coaching, somewhat because they are deferring to Durant and somewhat because we just don't need 3 guys to play the same role.

The offense could absolutely run much better, but we are always going to have rebounding and defensive deficiencies with those 3 out there that have to be overcome.

Nurk is not the right player to make up for that, and nobody else on the roster really is either as a PF.
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
11,542
Reaction score
9,070
Except aytin being a shot blocker. He was not.
He was certainly better at it than Nurk, players did not challenge him like they challenge Nurk. His ability to roll hard to the basket is also missed. Nurk is incapable of catching lobs.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
112,345
Reaction score
51,461
The Suns have a bad mix of players. Durant, Beal and Booker are basically are same guy three times over: shoot first, often indifferent defense, underwhelming rebounding. Booker got zero rebounds the past two games. If you play 70 or so minutes over two games, the ball is going to fall into your hands three or four times. He also is not a point guard and turns over the ball too much. The Suns, with some of their players not exactly being defensive stalwarts, need a shot blocker behind them. Nurkic is a good player, but he is not that. (Ayton was.) Also, Booker and Durant yelling at and scowling at their teammates throughout games adds to a team with negative chemistry. This team is going nowhere fast. Luka humiliated them on Christmas day in their house, and that kind of stuff is only going to get worse.

Welcome to the Suns forum.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
33,607
Reaction score
11,401
Location
Arizona
The Suns have a bad mix of players. Durant, Beal and Booker are basically are same guy three times over: shoot first, often indifferent defense, underwhelming rebounding. Booker got zero rebounds the past two games. If you play 70 or so minutes over two games, the ball is going to fall into your hands three or four times. He also is not a point guard and turns over the ball too much. The Suns, with some of their players not exactly being defensive stalwarts, need a shot blocker behind them. Nurkic is a good player, but he is not that. (Ayton was.) Also, Booker and Durant yelling at and scowling at their teammates throughout games adds to a team with negative chemistry. This team is going nowhere fast. Luka humiliated them on Christmas day in their house, and that kind of stuff is only going to get worse.
Welcome. I think it's a combo of the mix and coaching. Mix or not, this team should be playing better. That's on Vogel. He was supposed to be a defensive guru. Also, the Suns problems are not shot blocking. Last time I looked they were in the top 5 still but maybe it's changed. As much as we needed to move on from Ayton, he did anchor this defense. We are worse defensively without him, yet he had to go. This team seems to be a walking catch 22 with decisions this organization makes.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
59,297
Reaction score
50,204
Location
SoCal
He was certainly better at it than Nurk, players did not challenge him like they challenge Nurk. His ability to roll hard to the basket is also missed. Nurk is incapable of catching lobs.
Surely you’re not arguing Ayton would be better for this team?
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
11,542
Reaction score
9,070
Surely you’re not arguing Ayton would be better for this team?
Well I'm not sure.

This years version of Ayton seems like a total bum, last years version would probably be better.

I think his rebounding and athleticism allow him to at least seem like a better rim protector to the opposition - and we were better guarding the paint last year.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
112,345
Reaction score
51,461
The Suns misjudged their need for a point guard. I agree with Tim Legler.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
11,542
Reaction score
9,070
The Suns misjudged their need for a point guard. I agree with Tim Legler.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
I don't agree.

The issue is lack of ball movement. A point guard is not required to do that.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
112,345
Reaction score
51,461
I don't agree.

The issue is lack of ball movement. A point guard is not required to do that.

The Suns were ho-hum until they added Chris Paul. Now they are ho-hum without a point guard.

A good point guard runs the team and helps create ball movement.
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
11,542
Reaction score
9,070
The Suns were ho-hum until they added Chris Paul. Now they are ho-hum without a point guard.

A good point guard runs the team and helps create ball movement.
No it doesn't.

A PG will change nothing as long as Durant and Booker demand the ball to go ISO.

We ran a pick and roll offense with Ayton and Paul - which set up a ton of shots.

We are not running pick and roll anymore because we have nobody willing or able to roll, instead everything is pick and pop which does not generate as good of shots.

Durant is capable of being a roller and he should be used that way IMO.

I blame the coaches. There are other ways to run an offense also - and since the ISO ball is not working at all change needs to happen.
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
44,394
Reaction score
13,747
Location
Round Rock, TX
If we are not going to fire Vogel, then the first easy change I would make would be on ball outs after a made basket by the opposition is to make sure you cross the halfcourt line at 20 seconds. Period. None of this barely crossing line at 16 or 17 seconds. Up the pace and see what happens. Both KD and Book (and Grayson/EG) bring the ball up way too slow. At least Brad improves that, but they need more than 15 or 16 seconds to pull off the offense.
 

Muggz

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jul 7, 2019
Posts
2,431
Reaction score
3,322
Location
Tent City
We don't need PGs or PFs we need A player in ANY freaking position to play some MFing Defense.
We need 1 dude pref 2 who can guard the best players on the opposition WELL.
and we need our moxie back.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
112,345
Reaction score
51,461
No it doesn't.

A PG will change nothing as long as Durant and Booker demand the ball to go ISO.

We ran a pick and roll offense with Ayton and Paul - which set up a ton of shots.

We are not running pick and roll anymore because we have nobody willing or able to roll, instead everything is pick and pop which does not generate as good of shots.

Durant is capable of being a roller and he should be used that way IMO.

I blame the coaches. There are other ways to run an offense also - and since the ISO ball is not working at all change needs to happen.

I think Booker and Durant are team players. They may go to isolation more because of the stagnant offense.

I think changing coaches and adding a point guard may be the easiest way to determine the problem, if it doesn't fix it.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
35,843
Reaction score
14,513
Well I'm not sure.

This years version of Ayton seems like a total bum, last years version would probably be better.

I think his rebounding and athleticism allow him to at least seem like a better rim protector to the opposition - and we were better guarding the paint last year.
We were much better off with Ayton the year before last but last year's version was a running disappointment.
 

nashman

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 3, 2007
Posts
10,089
Reaction score
6,820
Location
Queen Creek, AZ
Ayton had to go period. The team is playing lousy no doubt! Curious on opinions if the team were to say go on a 9-10 game winning streak and start playing well? This team has still only played a handful of games relatively healthy. It’s frustrating watching right now but like the Miami game there are glimpses of what they can be if they stay focused AND hit shots. When the bench can’t hit anything it really screws stuff up. You can almost see it on guys faces like wtf how are you bricking WIDE open looks. Then it snowballs into Book or KD forcing shots because other guys clam up and afraid to shoot. Vogel not real keen on but I’m thinking I want to see what we look like at the end of January hopefully playing the big 3 more games together. Chemistry takes time so nothing to do but give it a little more time…
 

1982baskets

Rookie
Joined
Nov 18, 2023
Posts
99
Reaction score
113
Location
Arizona
I have said this many times.

When they went to the Finals, they had a balanced squad.

PG, Paul - set up the offense
SG Devin - secondary ball handler, primary shooting/scoring option.
F Bridges - big wing, scoring option very effecient (40% from 3, 50% FG)
C Ayton - athletic big in the paint
F Crowder - two way wing gave you 6+ three point attempts a night.
+ Cam Johnson, Cam Payne off the bench.

You had a pretty balanced core. Now? The core of the team is pretty out of sorts. No defined PG/leader. No pecking order who does what. No defensive player that can start who shoots a lot of 3s like Crowder was.

Been saying this for a while, we are what the record says we are. A .500sh level team. There's just not enough ball for so many high usage players to really make an impact all at the same time, especially since they all sort of play the same position. This isn't like Lebron's Miami big 3 project. Bosh played the stretch big role. Wade took a backseat as a SG and Lebron essentially was their point guard. Lebron is a great point guard.

On our roster, just compare it to Miami's big 3, that was a championship big 3. It's not the same balance. You don't have anyone who can be a real leader and PG of a championship team (although I'm sure we were hoping Booker would do that). And KD, he's not a role playing big. We've got 3 shooting guards trying to fit in. The rest of the roster is also a lot of misfits.

I'll be shocked if we win more than 43 games this year and make the playoffs.
 
Top