Another Blurb from Gil Brandt about Suggs workout yesterday!

[Shane]

April 18 results:
Weighing 258 pounds, Suggs ran a 4.88 40-yard dash against wind, and 4.95 and 4.92 with the wind. Yes, he ran faster running against the wind. However, his time in the 10-yard dash was 1.75 against the wind and 1.71 with the wind, and his times in the 20-yard dash were 2.84 with and against. He did look good in the drills, and especially looked quick during them.

 

[jw7]

Originally posted by Shane H
April 18 results:
Weighing 258 pounds, Suggs ran a 4.88 40-yard dash against wind, and 4.95 and 4.92 with the wind. Yes, he ran faster running against the wind. However, his time in the 10-yard dash was 1.75 against the wind and 1.71 with the wind, and his times in the 20-yard dash were 2.84 with and against. He did look good in the drills, and especially looked quick during them.

Thanks Shane.

Someone made a good post that if we need an end to sack someone 40 yds behind the line then Suggs probably isn't our guy.

All I can say is I saw him live against Arizona, and he was ALWAYS in the backfield - dude just makes plays.

I still want Leftwich tho', but it ain't gonna happen

You must be registered for see images

 

[pinnacle]

KDUS and 910 both had guys at the workout...they said suggs did not weigh in - but when people asked what he weighed he told them...just a clarification..

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Yeah...I weigh 258

Sheesh...

He looked quick to Gil Brandt. Stop the presses!!!


Reality check.

Suggs is a weak end. (18 bench reps)

Suggs is a slow end. (4.89)


You know, I can slowly see Suggs becoming the new Jake. ASU Grad with everyone making excuses for him when he under-performs.

Look...Suggs 40 speed is extremely important. Dominant rushers have good 40 times...that is a fact. And on the slight chance they don't have a good 40 time, they are extremely strong like Strahan.


Ask yourself this honestly, if he wasn't from ASU, would you really want this guy? I doubt it.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Oh and last time I checked

Initial acceleration is part of someone's 40 time. That's why it is such a telling stat.

Suggs 40 times means only two things:

#1 He is just slow...slower than the QBs he will be trying to get to.

#2 He tires so easily, that the massive speed burst he gets in the initial take off vanishes almost immediately.

 

[Shane]

Re: Yeah...I weigh 258

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Sheesh...

He looked quick to Gil Brandt. Stop the presses!!!


Reality check.

Suggs is a weak end. (18 bench reps)

Suggs is a slow end. (4.89)


You know, I can slowly see Suggs becoming the new Jake. ASU Grad with everyone making excuses for him when he under-performs.

Look...Suggs 40 speed is extremely important. Dominant rushers have good 40 times...that is a fact. And on the slight chance they don't have a good 40 time, they are extremely strong like Strahan.


Ask yourself this honestly, if he wasn't from ASU, would you really want this guy? I doubt it.

Sorry Chris but you are passing this off as fact and that is just plain not true.

There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between game speed and workout speed. BOTTOM LINE! There are guys who run 4.4 forties but you put pads on them and put them in contact and they look like a wet rug on the field. Then you have guys ala Jerry Rice who have slow 40 times yet there game speed with pads on cannot be denied.

I could care less what his forty times are. Look at the guys numbers and play on the field. Heck that play during the Holiday bowl where he ran down that small speedster RB from behind was all I needed to see. He has GAME SPEED and thats what counts!

His initial 10 yard burst is a sight to behold and his pass rushing skills are unmatched by anyone else in this draft. He is and will be a good pick IMO if he comes to the Cardinals.

That has nothing to do witht the fact that hes from ASU!

 

[JeffGollin]

Chris - You have a right to your opinion, and perhaps you'll be proved to be right.

But I don't think so. There are a few things you should consider:

- While it's true that how fast someone runs the first 10 - 20 yards also goes into someone's 40 time, two players can run the forty with identical times, except that one will take longer to build up speed and continue to increase it over the final 20 yards while another will explode out of the blocks but max out at that point.

The explosive guy is more likely to be a successful edge-rusher because he has the initial quicks to beat the LT and whiz around him.

The other guy is more likely to be an excellent 40 - 60 yard dash track man.

- You don't rack up 24 sacks in one season against major college competition if you're "too slow" to get the job done.

- Mean Joe Green pointed out that the kid added 10 pounds between the last workout and this one without losing any additional straight line speed - that's a plus.

- It's not all about speed and quicks. Suggs also has a sufficient number of moves in his arsenal (with the knowledge of when/when not to use them) to be super-productive at what he does best.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don't Sanders ever watched him play. Many games of his that I watched, he looked much faster than anyone on the field.

Sanders sounds like he would draft on the basis of workouts. Mamula ran a 4.5.....Wow hasn't he been the greatest pass rusher in the world.

 

[Stout]

I haven't sounded off in the Suggs debate lately because it's all being said, but I do have to make a contribution.

First, let me qualify my statements by saying I'd still take the guy. He's the best pass rusher in college football. He had 24 sacks. He has game speed. I'd rather have Leftwich, yes, but I won't be heartbroken if we take Suggs.

That said, he's by no means a sure thing. His lack of speed scares me. Everyone can cry game speed all you want, but there are plenty of comparisons to make to past players that supposedly 'played faster' than their 40 times. Thomas Burke 'played faster' than his 40 time. He looked like a man among children. IN COLLEGE. My fear is that, while Suggs looks great in college, the speed of the NFL may be too much for him. It is a legitimite fear. Period.

I'm tired of everyone getting on their high horses and claiming their side of the story is correct, not that it's necessarily happening in this thread. One side says that he's absolutely a terrible pick because of his workout numbers. I can't agree-they could be deceptive. Of course, the other side is willing to completely ignore his horrible workouts and say he will be a good pick because of 'game speed'. I certainly can't agree with that faulty logic, because he is no sure thing.

Bottom line: We won't know for sure until he plays. If Leftwich is gone, AND we can't trade down, I'd be happy to get Suggs at #6. He's worth the gamble at that spot for what we'd get if he does pan out. If he doesn't play well, it sucks, but we have to suck it up and drive on, as we used to say in the Army.

 

[ajcardfan]

I don't think the Burke-Suggs comparisons hold any water. Burke was NEVER projected in the first round. I remember watching Burke in the Rose Bowl that year and thinking, "How in the world did he get that many sacks?"

BTW, I heard something very interesting about Burke on the radio a couple of weeks ago. Bob Kemp and Evan Andeen were making the same point I just made, that Burke isn't comparable to Suggs. Then they said something I had never heard before. They said one reason why Burke was such a low pick compared to his production was that many suspected that he used enhancers (steroids?) in college. I had never heard that before and I wanted to make a post about it but forgot. Has anyone ever heard that about Burke before?

 

[ChiCard]

When he ran that 40 he wasn't carrying a piano by any chance was he?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
I don't think the Burke-Suggs comparisons hold any water. Burke was NEVER projected in the first round. I remember watching Burke in the Rose Bowl that year and thinking, "How in the world did he get that many sacks?"

BTW, I heard something very interesting about Burke on the radio a couple of weeks ago. Bob Kemp and Evan Andeen were making the same point I just made, that Burke isn't comparable to Suggs. Then they said something I had never heard before. They said one reason why Burke was such a low pick compared to his production was that many suspected that he used enhancers (steroids?) in college. I had never heard that before and I wanted to make a post about it but forgot. Has anyone ever heard that about Burke before?

BINGO! I heard the same thing AJ....they didn't exactly say roids, but they were definitely implying that.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I never watched him play?

I live in Mesa. Think I might have catched a few Sun Devil games?

Of course I have seen Suggs play. I have been rooting for Suggs for two months. I am just very worried about his workouts. College play usually translates into pro play...but not always.

I just know deep down if he wasn't from ASU, I wouldn't want him. I would want to go with a pick with less questions.

 

[Ryanwb]

As noted many times before a DE does not have to run 40 yards to get to the QB. Let his college production speak for itself, he beat some major talented tackles that play in the Pac 10. What do you think Reggie White's 40 time was? Suggs can get stronger, he will get stronger he is much bigger than he was at the combine.

 

[artp]

Although I hate to admit it, I have to defer to the experts at this point regarding Suggs. I admit that both sides have good points. As much as I'd like Suggs to be a no-brainer, I have to think that his latest workouts make him suspect. I don't know. I'm not deferring to Kiper, but if the majority of the experts think that Suggs is no longer worth a top 10 pick, I would go along with it.
I don't want my personal want of an impact DE, to make me rate Suggs higher than he is worth. THe absolute worst thing to do is reach.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
As noted many times before a DE does not have to run 40 yards to get to the QB. Let his college production speak for itself, he beat some major talented tackles that play in the Pac 10. What do you think Reggie White's 40 time was? Suggs can get stronger, he will get stronger he is much bigger than he was at the combine.

Very true Ryan.

Another guy that wasn't that fast, but played fast was Richard Dent. Pass rushing is a skill not a natural ability, and Suggs quite possibly might be the most skilled pass rusher coming out of college in the history of pro football.

I would want this guy if he went to UNC.....Remember, Julius Peppers didn't run a great 40 last year either, and he doesn't have half of the pass rush moves that Suggs has.

 

[Stout]

Like I said, judging him completely on his workouts is wrong because he played well and judging him completely on his play is wrong because he sucked in his workouts. I will take the anti-Suggs stance, only for the moment, because everyone else seems to want to annoint him the second coming of Christ before he's ever played an NFL down.

Screw his college experience. It means absolutely 00000 now. He'll be drafte high. This is a combination of many factors, a big part of which is that college experience. Is that experience enough that we should take him? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sold on taking him but I won't be dismayed if we do.

Remember here, Suggs didn't have a bad workout, or 2 bad workouts, he had 2 terrible workouts. Julius Peppers didn't work out this poorly before his draft. Bottom line here is that many of you are simply ignoring, i.e., throwing out, his workout numbers, PURELY based on game ability. IN COLLEGE. IN THE PAC-10, A PASS HAPPY LEAGUE. You should be at least minimally concerned here.

Thomas Burke was not the same college player. I'm not saying he was. I'm saying that college success by NO MEANS equals pro success. Period, end of conversation. The point can't even be argued. There have been tons of stud college guys that sucked at the pro level. There have been tons of late round guys that rocked in the NFL.

As for the Reggie White comparison? Name me one recent NFL sackmaster that was slow and I'll name you three times as many that weren't. Slow successful pass rushers are the exception, NOT the rule.

To conclude, I am not here railing against drafting this guy. I'm just trying to bring a voice of reason to everyone that's trying to completely and utterly ignore his bad workout numbers.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Slow pass rushers

Dent and Reggie White are extremely strong DE's.

You are ignoring the most crucial point of Suggs workout was his incredibly weak bench press.

 

[BACH]

TSN's Paul Attner on Suggs

TSN's Paul Attner in an interview on TSN Radio:

1. Teams are over-analyzing Suggs.

2. He's 40 time is slower than expected, but everyone can see that he's a special player.

3. 40 time not that important, because he's still quick on his feet.

4. Thinks the problem is bad work habits. He was out of shape in his first work-out and got tried in the middel of it.

5. He's still a kid and the only concern regarding Suggs is if doesn't "grow up" and become more professional.

Bottom Line:
Suggs might slip a bit, but not much. Not drafting him when you have the chance would be a BIG mistake. Suggs is still one of absolut best players this year..

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: TSN's Paul Attner on Suggs

Originally posted by BACH


4. Thinks the problem is bad work habits. He was out of shape in his first work-out and got tried in the middel of it.

Another point that needs to be brought into this discussion.

I said this on another thread.....I talked to an ASU teammate of Suggs and he said that Suggs had his bad workout because he is partying too much. Another poster said he had talked to another ASU teammate, and he had said the same thing.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Slow pass rushers

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Dent and Reggie White are extremely strong DE's.

You are ignoring the most crucial point of Suggs workout was his incredibly weak bench press.

Yeah, incredibly weak from the youngest player in the draft.

His strength will improve.

(ON A SIDENOTE: Isn't it funny that we are calling a guy who can bench 225 19 times weak?)

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Stout


Thomas Burke was not the same college player. I'm not saying he was. I'm saying that college success by NO MEANS equals pro success. Period, end of conversation. The point can't even be argued. There have been tons of stud college guys that sucked at the pro level. There have been tons of late round guys that rocked in the NFL.

Bob Kemp and Evan Ann dean on KDUS talked about the "BURKE COMPARISON" and they said something to the effect that Burke was using roids.....I wasn't the only one who heard it, AJCardsfan heard it too.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Stout

Screw his college experience. It means absolutely 00000 now. He'll be drafte high. This is a combination of many factors, a big part of which is that college experience. Is that experience enough that we should take him? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sold on taking him but I won't be dismayed if we do.

How can you say screw his experience? If you ignore that, then he isn't even a prospect. Suggs has more pass rush ability than any prospect coming out since I started watching the draft. He has more moves that Jevon Kearse did and many others over the past 7-9 years...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
How can you say screw his experience? If you ignore that, then he isn't even a prospect. Suggs has more pass rush ability than any prospect coming out since I started watching the draft. He has more moves that Jevon Kearse did and many others over the past 7-9 years...

Krang - if all this is true about more moves than Kearse (who everyone recognizes that they made a mistake on) and has more moves than Peppers and was more productive) - then tell me this - Why isn't Suggs a lock for the top three picks in the draft? DE studs who everyone believes are going to be ridiculous are always top three picks - Wadsworth, Rice, Peppers, Courtney Brown -so if Suggs is as good as them -why are people talking about his stock falling - couldn't it be that you have some impartial views when talking about Suggs because w you go to ASU? Look, I love the guy and his motor, but the fact that he has had TWO terrible workouts from a strength and speed standpoint, and the fact that you have heard that he is partying all the time (I'm sure that will stop when he becomes a millionaire and is surrounded by even more temptation than we could comprehend) and has had run ins with the law where he refused to cooperate with the police after the fact - don't ALL those factors put together raise at least one red flag to you?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Krang - if all this is true about more moves than Kearse (who everyone recognizes that they made a mistake on) and has more moves than Peppers and was more productive) - then tell me this - Why isn't Suggs a lock for the top three picks in the draft? DE studs who everyone believes are going to be ridiculous are always top three picks - Wadsworth, Rice, Peppers, Courtney Brown -so if Suggs is as good as them -why are people talking about his stock falling - couldn't it be that you have some impartial views when talking about Suggs because w you go to ASU? Look, I love the guy and his motor, but the fact that he has had TWO terrible workouts from a strength and speed standpoint, and the fact that you have heard that he is partying all the time (I'm sure that will stop when he becomes a millionaire and is surrounded by even more temptation than we could comprehend) and has had run ins with the law where he refused to cooperate with the police after the fact - don't ALL those factors put together raise at least one red flag to you?

Yes, I must admit though I'm not saying it, it does raise a red flag.

But I'm from the school of thought that the number one thing that you are looking for in the draft is good football players, and Suggs might be overall the best football player in the draft.

I'm really torn. I think the two best football players in the draft, imo, my be available when we pick. Leftwich and Suggs are the best imo, and I hope that the scouting staff knows what they are doing (which is HIGHLY questionable). Right now, all things remain equal, I might go with Leftwich.

The other teams have needs elsewhere, and there are a few Qbs available, so Suggs might slide to us. The player that I talked to at ASU said that the workouts were REALLY bad for him. He said that Suggs is much faster than a 4.8 40 time, and even reports from Attner said that Suggs looked out of shape.