2023-24 Around the NBA Thread

Yuma

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Yes but I didn't equate good teams to being legit title teams. We have fielded a ton of good teams that were not title contenders.
The only caveat to that, is the sixties, seventies, and eighties, where Boston and LA traded titles, then you had Houston, Bulls, and SA suck the life out of the league, too. We were good when teams were dynasty level super good. Then we had the Sarver lost decade. We are just barely even starting the Ishbia era.
 

Yuma

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No one is saying we had to sit idle either. Going all in on a 35 year old who is oft injured isn't something teams do to push them to contention. When the Lakers gave up a similar haul they got back a 26 year who was a top 10 player in the league about to enter his prime, and turned out to be oft injured. Big difference. FIFY
 

Covert Rain

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The Lakers are in a major media market and can consistently attract stars.

I'd like for the Suns to get there, but I'm not going to presume they are there until they prove it over time.
Even though guys want to play with Booker is a good indicator we will never have the market and we don't have the luxury of riding on a legacy either. Which means we are going to have to take extra steps teams like the Lakers don't have to take.
 
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Mainstreet

Mainstreet

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The only caveat to that, is the sixties, seventies, and eighties, where Boston and LA traded titles, then you had Houston, Bulls, and SA suck the life out of the league, too. We were good when teams were dynasty level super good. Then we had the Sarver lost decade. We are just barely even starting the Ishbia era.

Only talking basketball, but the Sarver years starting with the Orlando bubble were pretty good years up until the trade deadline last season.
 

Hoop Head

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@Yuma they still got a title and look at games missed between AD and KD, about the same over the last 4-5 years.
 

cheesebeef

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And Durant isn't anything to build around because he's old and misses half the year.
That could DEFINITELY be the case.
You guys keep making it sound like there was only one option.
No. I’m simply arguing a Booker/Bridges team isn’t a contender. You very well may be right that KD/Book combo isn’t. But again, that’s not what I’m responding to with Mainstreet and since you’ve now turned to the old game of projecting stupid unfounded arguments on to others to strengthen your own, I’m done responding to you because it’s pointless to get into these kind of bad faith discussion.
 

cheesebeef

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Only talking basketball, but the Sarver years starting with the Orlando bubble were pretty good years up until the trade deadline last season.
We literally got to the same exact same place last year as we did the previous year that you wax so poetic about.
 

Phrazbit

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The Lakers are a great example of mixing drafting and acquisition. Which team has a larger legacy in the NBA? They don't sit idle waiting for the team to build just through the draft and they don't sit around being satisfied with just good teams.

The Lakers have the luxury of an MVP signing with them in free agency every time they've had a down turn.

If Shaq doesn't go there, they're in the lurch for years. If LeBron doesn't go there they're probably still stuck in the lotto.
 

Covert Rain

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The Lakers have the luxury of an MVP signing with them in free agency every time they've had a down turn.

If Shaq doesn't go there, they're in the lurch for years. If LeBron doesn't go there they're probably still stuck in the lotto.
Exactly. Which is my point and they get other guys that have signed or wanted to player there over and over. You don't get that unless you are that market and have the legacy of that team. The point is they DO get players to go there. Over and over.
 
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Phrazbit

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That could DEFINITELY be the case.

No. I’m simply arguing a Booker/Bridges team isn’t a contender. You very well may be right that KD/Book combo isn’t. But again, that’s not what I’m responding to with Mainstreet and since you’ve now turned to the old game of projecting stupid unfounded arguments on to others to strengthen your own, I’m done responding to you because it’s pointless to get into these kind of bad faith discussion.

Bad faith?

It's bad faith to point out that we had other options? It seems like a rather obvious counter to the "Booker and Bridges are not enough" argument.

I would say the "If we don't do the Durant trade we are stuck with 50 and fade" argument, which has been used a lot, is far more in bad faith.
 
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Ouchie-Z-Clown

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How did the Nuggets get there? They drafted their players.

The Suns were following the same path nicely, even added a star in Chris Paul, until the front office decided they couldn't wait for our young players to develop.
They drafted jokic, murray, porter and the Kansas kid. Traded for Gordon, signed KPC, Bruce brown, Jeff green. The lottery ticket hit on jokic was an unusual difference maker.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I like the way Denver has built their team. We are likely to see more of it with the new CBA. I think the Suns were on the same path before last season's trade deadline.

Remember the Suns in four.
No murray. MPJ injured in series. No other comment.
 

Proximo

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They drafted jokic, murray, porter and the Kansas kid. Traded for Gordon, signed KPC, Bruce brown, Jeff green. The lottery ticket hit on jokic was an unusual difference maker.
Yes, and there are a ton of stars that come from lottery ticket hit's

Which is why saying the Suns could not have gotten over the top pre trade is just wrong. Draft picks are lottery tickets and sometimes you win.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Bad faith?

It's bad faith to point out that we had other options? It seems like a rather obvious counter to the "Booker and Bridges are not enough" argument.

I would say the "If we don't do the Durant trade we are stuck with 50 and fade" argument, which has been used a lot, is far more in bad faith.
You’re mistating the 50 and fade argument. That was raised in response to staying the previous course with the primary players. Talking about alternative courses of action would’ve necessitating trades involving bridges and maybe cam, which I never considered 50 and fade because there’s literally no way to know if those deals would’ve made us better, still 50 and fade, or worse - because we would have ZERO idea what those would entail.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Yes, and there are a ton of stars that come from lottery ticket hit's

Which is why saying the Suns could not have gotten over the top pre trade is just wrong. Draft picks are lottery tickets and sometimes you win.
Jokic was drafted 41st. How many two time MVPs have been draft at that spot or later? Not “tons.”
 

Covert Rain

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Yes, and there are a ton of stars that come from lottery ticket hit's

Which is why saying the Suns could not have gotten over the top pre trade is just wrong. Draft picks are lottery tickets and sometimes you win.
Huh? The Suns wouldn’t be drafting in the lottery though. Your chances of finding a second star after are little to none and the odds drop sign if after the top 3.
 

cheesebeef

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??? Do you really want to go down this route. ????
No. It’s why I said I was done. When people start distorting other’s arguments, it’s pointless to continue.
 

Phrazbit

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Huh? The Suns wouldn’t be drafting in the lottery though. Your chances of finding a second star after are little to none and the odds drop sign if after the top 3.

There are a lot of good players taken outside the top of the draft.

In this finals game the only 3 guys were top 10 picks, none were top 3. And all of those 3 guys were taken with picks that did not come from Miami or Denver's draft position. Love was a free agent signing, Gordon was a trade and the Nuggets drafted Murray with New York's pick... gotta love the Knicks.
 

Covert Rain

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There are a lot of good players taken outside the top of the draft.

In this finals game the only 3 guys were top 10 picks, none were top 3. And all of those 3 guys were taken with picks that did not come from Miami or Denver's draft position. Love was a free agent signing, Gordon was a trade and the Nuggets drafted Murray with New York's pick... gotta love the Knicks.
I am not saying it isn’t possible but statistically it’s lopsided and it’s not even close.
 

Phrazbit

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I am not saying it isn’t possible but statistically it’s lopsided and it’s not even close.

It's more common than people realize.

Kind of a tangent, but it's wild how few guys, even good ones in the top 3, succeed with the team who "earned" that pick. Even going back to the second round, there were only 3 dudes that were top 3 picks AND taken with the team who landed in that slot; Ayton, Embiid and RJ Barrett. The other high picks were there had either bailed on their original team (James, Durant, ect) or were taken with another team's draft pick (Tatum, Brown).
 

Covert Rain

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It's more common than people realize.

Kind of a tangent, but it's wild how few guys, even good ones in the top 3, succeed with the team who "earned" that pick. Even going back to the second round, there were only 3 dudes that were top 3 picks AND taken with the team who landed in that slot; Ayton, Embiid and RJ Barrett. The other high picks were there had either bailed on their original team (James, Durant, ect) or were taken with another team's draft pick (Tatum, Brown).
I have posted the stats before by draft position of guys that become stars. If I get a chance I will try and find it. If recall the best odds by far were picks 1-5. After that picks 6-10 we’re something like only 33%. By the end of the first it drops to 5%. I don’t recall what the 2nd round was.
 
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Yuma

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Exactly. Which is my point and they get other guys that have signed or wanted to player there over and over. You don't get that unless you are that market and have the legacy of that team. The point is they DO get players to go there. Over and over.
Players want to be in LA. Stars, models, entertainment, food, music, etc. They have more marketing opportunities. That's all aside from the basketball, in an organization that has demonstrated the ability to win championships.
 

Phrazbit

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Second round of the playoffs, this year, not the draft, poor phrasing.

Basically, bottoming out for high picks seems to yield poor results for teams. Even if your top 3 pick ends up being a star, there is a really good chance that they're going to force their way out of your crap franchise before you can reap the benefits.

There are obviously exceptions, but this years finals matchup is a great example of building the right way. Two teams that have not even sniffed the top of the draft in nearly 2 decades.

Even the Suns... we were stuck in a really bad run of form and it wasn't the top picks that pulled us out of that toilet, our high picks this last decade have all been huge disappointments. We only got out of the gutter by nailing the Booker and Bridges picks and the trade for Paul.
 

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