Charmin Marvin Harrison Jr Thread

[Harry]

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These issues were noticed by scouts. Its nothing new. MHJ is an extremely hard worker and had access to NFL level advice from his dad. My concern is MHJ might have already hit his ceiling as a player as a sophmore in college. He broke out at such a young age that scouts expected him to just keep getting better, but that might be hard if he really did come into the league doing everything right.

In fairness, here’s the top of this scouting report,
“

Overview​

Harrison comes from impressive NFL bloodlines and possesses similarities that made his father, Pro Football Hall of Famer Marvin Harrison, special. Harrison can run but isn’t a burner. What makes him tough to handle is his consistent play speed paired with quality salesmanship in his routes. He’s able to uncover no matter where he’s aligned or which part of the field his assignment takes him to, and he is capable of finishing catches in a crowd. Harrison can be sudden while working possession routes, and he’s well qualified to beat any opponent with his ball skills if the battle heads deep. Harrison is a touchdown champ with a variety of ways to excel, and that characteristic figures to follow him into the pros. He has the traits and tools to win in all three phases of the route and on all three levels of the field. He’s a pedigree prospect and a Day 1 starter with high-end production expected.

Strengths​

• Exceptional production as a high-volume, high-impact target.
• Runs routes with threatening pace and is sudden out of breaks.
• Good rhythm and body control snapping off comeback routes.
• Uses speed changes to create indecisiveness in cornerbacks.
• Elite scramble talent to uncover wide open when play breaks down.
• Plays with pro feet working his boundary catches.
• Highly focused deep-ball tracker with above-average ball skills.
• Can make late body adjustments with sudden hands to bring in the catch.
• Elegant leap and spin to snatch throws over defender’s heads.”

 

[DVontel]

A distraction. Even without those Kyler's YPA is still trash and his tendency to check down when he has better options is evident.

Offenses run through quarterbacks. They affect everything in both directions. They affect what the OC calls, they affect how the WR's perform. Imagine being the 1st read on a play and you run a perfect 15 yard route that's on time, only to look back and see your QB came off you half a second earlier and checked it down for no gain. Imagine that happening several times a game across the whole WR corp. How thrilled would you be?

Imagine you don't see a target for 2 quarters and your suddenly expected to catch a ball thrown behind you on 3rd down that hits you in hands and everyone says "He should have caught that", and maybe you would had it been on target and you hadn't already run 18 routes without a look.

At the moment Kyler is sucking the life out of this offense, for everyone. And it's not because of the flaws in his game, it's because he's scared to throw the ball beyond 5 yards unless we're getting spanked or we're up so much the consequences don't matter.

So I'm not mad at Marv. I think Marv is soul crushingly disappointed to be in such an underpowered passing offense.

Look at this. It's not great in any quarter but you cannot win games with a YPA less than 4 through the first half of a game. Even when he "turned it on" in Q4 it's still bad for most QB's.

Quarter	Attempts	Pass Yards	YPA
1st​	9​	31​	3.44​
2nd​	12​	52​	4.33​
3rd​	7​	33​	4.71​
4th​	13​	84​	6.46​

I think it’s absolutely fascinating you treat Marv like he’s some 6th rounder, lowering your standards for him & all. Fascinating.

 

[DVontel]

Flawed Kyler & all, Nabers would still produce in this offense more than Marv, btw.

 

[BritCard]

I think it’s absolutely fascinating you treat Marv like he’s some 6th rounder, lowering your standards for him & all. Fascinating.

I mean, I think I was pretty explanatory in my post on how bad quarterback play can lead to bad wide receiver play. Maybe you missed that bit.

But having watched a ton of tape for the three previous games, I can see Marv is getting open and the opportunity is there for him to have 150 more yards than he has now. In which case, we wouldn't be talking about any of the drops. In the same way that other teams with wide receivers putting up yards and touchdowns don't talk about their drops.

Marv should have done better with the obvious drops he has had. But you really can't judge his overall performance with this level of quarterback play.

 

[BritCard]

Flawed Kyler & all, Nabers would still produce in this offense more than Marv, btw.

How can Nabers catch balls that aren't thrown to him? How would Nabers have 16 yards per reception with a quarterback that rarely throws it more than 10 yards?

 

[DVontel]

I mean, I think I was pretty explanatory in my post on how bad quarterback play can lead to bad wide receiver play. Maybe you missed that bit.

You didn’t watch other WRs in his class like Malik Nabers & Brian Thomas Jr have tremendous rookie seasons with bad quarterback play? Maybe I’ve missed that bit? Maybe you missed the game football until this year.

In which case, we wouldn't be talking about any of the drops.

His drops get talked about because he has been opened on a majority of them.

Marv should have done better with the obvious drops he has had.

You struggle to not just stick with this, instead of finding every excuse of the book. You sound so hypocritical, like the Kyler stans you always go after.

 

[DVontel]

How can Nabers catch balls that aren't thrown to him? How would Nabers have 16 yards per reception with a quarterback that rarely throws it more than 10 yards?

Nabers is a much, much more explosive player than Marv. Whether it’s short, intermediate, or long. This shouldn’t take a genius to know. He gets open quicker & more consistently than Marv to the point Kyler would force him ball at that point despite Kyler being very flawed.

 

[BritCard]

You didn’t watch other WRs in his class like Malik Nabers & Brian Thomas Jr have tremendous rookie seasons with bad quarterback play? Maybe I’ve missed that bit? Maybe you missed the game football until this year.

His drops get talked about because he has been opened on a majority of them.

You struggle to not just stick with this, instead of finding every excuse of the book. You sound so hypocritical, like the Kyler stans you always go after.

Nabers is a much, much more explosive player than Marv. Whether it’s short, intermediate, or long. This shouldn’t take a genius to know. He gets open quicker & more consistently than Marv to the point Kyler would force him ball at that point despite Kyler being very flawed.

There is a difference between bad quarterback play and a quarterback averaging less than 6 yards/attempt. You're not gonna have 15 yards per catch when your quarterback is a checkdown king. And it doesn't matter how open you are downfield when your quarterback prefers a 5-yard dump off.

I'm really not concerned about Marv in the exact same way that I wasn't concerned about Trey McBride when this board was going off on what a wasted pick he was. I said then that Trey had all the talent to be successful but that he was struggling with poor quarterback play, and I think the same of Marv.

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[DVontel]

Brit still struggling to judge Larry Fitzgerald & Andre Johnson’s career performances all these years later.

 

[oaken1]

Is Tee Higgins the best case scenario?

I would say somewhere between A.J.Green and Julio Jones is the best case...
its a pretty damn good ceiling still..kid just needs to figure it out..or get in an offense that uses him properly.
If I were The Petzing,...I would use him similar to how Seattle used DK Metcalf...give him fly and go routes and such to let him utilize his long strides to get to speed...but make him the second or third read so Kyler doesnt get to him too soon...and if he is behind his coverage just let'er rip...but then sprinkle in a few crosses a game to allow easier completions and to keep the defense honest. ...then he and kyler need to put in a few thousand reps in practice routes so Kyler has his speed nailed and can hit him in stride.Marrv having to slow or stop to make a catch is one of his biggest issues.

 

[Stout]

I mean, I think I was pretty explanatory in my post on how bad quarterback play can lead to bad wide receiver play. Maybe you missed that bit.

But having watched a ton of tape for the three previous games, I can see Marv is getting open and the opportunity is there for him to have 150 more yards than he has now. In which case, we wouldn't be talking about any of the drops. In the same way that other teams with wide receivers putting up yards and touchdowns don't talk about their drops.

Marv should have done better with the obvious drops he has had. But you really can't judge his overall performance with this level of quarterback play.

I'm all out on Kyler, but it's crystal clear MHJ has plenty of problems on his own. No one would be forgetting these drops.

 

[oaken1]

Nabers is a much, much more explosive player than Marv. Whether it’s short, intermediate, or long. This shouldn’t take a genius to know. He gets open quicker & more consistently than Marv to the point Kyler would force him ball at that point despite Kyler being very flawed.

not to mention his explosiveness will allow him to avoid the first tackler after a catch and get some YAC

 

[DVontel]

I would say somewhere between A.J.Green and Julio Jones is the best case...

lol, so like a top 3 WR in the league?

 

[DVontel]

I'm all out on Kyler, but it's crystal clear MHJ has plenty of problems on his own. No one would be forgetting these drops.

It’s a distraction, Stout. Duh.

 

[oaken1]

I'm all out on Kyler, but it's crystal clear MHJ has plenty of problems on his own. No one would be forgetting these drops.

IMHO Marv's biggest issue is concentration and frustration.
He lets the frustration of getting open only to see Kyler already moved past him in the read for a dump off get in his head...and that causes him to lose his focus.
its a maturity issue in some respects....a pro player has to maintain his focus even if he is open on every snap but doesnt get a target until late 4th quarter. The biggest part in being a pro is being able to turn it on and perform at a high level in the exact moment your team needs you too...rather you have been the guy all game or not.

 

[oaken1]

lol, so like a top 3 WR in the league?

for the best case scenario?? Yeah. The talent and physical ability is there.

 

[DVontel]

for the best case scenario?? Yeah. The talent and physical ability is there.

I’m not sure if the talent is THAT high. Marv won’t be burning anybody unlike Nabers or BTJ or Ladd. There’s a world where Marv ends up like Mike Williams.

 

[oaken1]

I’m not sure if the talent is THAT high. Marv won’t be burning anybody unlike Nabers or BTJ or Ladd. There’s a world where Marv ends up like Mike Williams.

maybe... I think its all about play design.
Kyler has trust issues..he will rarely throw the ball five yards before Marv gets to his brreak...so Marvs ability to break down and create some separation in his routes is of limited value.
But if we use him like DK was used in Seattle, orr like Green was used early on in cincy...just run him mostly on routes that allow him to get to speed with his long strides and kyler throw it over the top...the kid can be very productive....then sprinkle in some crosses for some easier completions as a reward for running all those cardio routes up the seam/sidelines
make it simple for kyler...when his progression takes him to Marv...if the CB is between he and Marv,...just let it rip...but if the corner is on top of Marv, move on....do that with Marv as the second or third read and he should see a decent number of targets with balls that fit his skillset to catch

 

[SoonerLou]

I’m not sure if the talent is THAT high. Marv won’t be burning anybody unlike Nabers or BTJ or Ladd. There’s a world where Marv ends up like Mike Williams.

Mike wasnt a perfect player, but he seemed a bit more physical than MHJ. Also thrived on those jumpball scenarios.

I would say somewhere between A.J.Green and Julio Jones is the best case...
its a pretty damn good ceiling still..kid just needs to figure it out..or get in an offense that uses him properly.
If I were The Petzing,...I would use him similar to how Seattle used DK Metcalf...give him fly and go routes and such to let him utilize his long strides to get to speed...but make him the second or third read so Kyler doesnt get to him too soon...and if he is behind his coverage just let'er rip...but then sprinkle in a few crosses a game to allow easier completions and to keep the defense honest. ...then he and kyler need to put in a few thousand reps in practice routes so Kyler has his speed nailed and can hit him in stride.Marrv having to slow or stop to make a catch is one of his biggest issues.

I've said it before but the weight gain has done him a disservice.

MHJ wasnt perfect last year but he seemed to get easy separation at times. He's already a natural lollygag kind of player. He doesnt look anymore powerful....he looks heavy.

I actually believed the AJ Green comparisons last year cause he was at least still smooth and seemed to separate with pure route running.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think 6 catches for 66 yards would be a good per game average (102 catches for 1122 yards over the course of a 17 game season).

I wouldn’t call that good. I’d call that the minimum-to-just-below-average expectation I’d have of a #1 receiver in an offense. Particularly the 11 YPC.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I mean, I think I was pretty explanatory in my post on how bad quarterback play can lead to bad wide receiver play. Maybe you missed that bit.

But having watched a ton of tape for the three previous games, I can see Marv is getting open and the opportunity is there for him to have 150 more yards than he has now. In which case, we wouldn't be talking about any of the drops. In the same way that other teams with wide receivers putting up yards and touchdowns don't talk about their drops.

Marv should have done better with the obvious drops he has had. But you really can't judge his overall performance with this level of quarterback play.

I think you’re mistaken to absolve a receivers poor play on a qb’s poor play. Does the qb impact the receivers numbers? Absolutely. But to come up with excuses why a receivers poor play makes god awful drops is just pursuing an agenda.

 

[Dback Jon]

Very true. But when you have a QB that is averaging 185 yards per game through 4 games this is about as good as it gets.

That’s also very much a chicken and eggs scenario. Decent receivers would get Kyle or another 75 to 100 yards per game.

Harrison alone, if he would actually run routes and catch balls would get most of that additional yardage for Kyler

It’s very clear that Kyler does not trust his wide receivers and he has an absolute reason to feel that way.

Some of these routes that Harrison can’t run McBride has no problem getting open and getting completions

 

[Russ Smith]

Too long of a thread I'm sure I've said it before here but here goes.

Marv isn't the guy we thought we had drafted and probably never will be.he's good, but he's not nearly as fast as we were told, that's why he didn't run at the combine it's blatantly obvious they knew he was closer to 4.5 than 4.3 and they were scared if he ran he might fall in the draft. It worked. he supposedly is a great route runner but it's amazing how often the route he runs isn't the one Kyler thinks he's running. I have to think if Kyler was the one wrong on all of those by now the coaches would have called it out. He's not quick at all and not shifty and he's just not able to get OPEN against good coverage. Even the TD last night took an absolute dime of a throw and a great highpoint(finally) catch he had very little separation.

But my biggest objection to him is he's soft, he doesn't compete, he's not a dawg. He quit on the route last night contributing to a pick, last week he quit on a route and Kyler had to run it and then he didn't even block just stopped. We're so used to seeing absolute diva WR's that are so supremely confident it's annoying, but Marv desperately needs some of that, so far his response to adversity in the NFL seems to be just pouting.

Lots of other problems on the offense but you can't run a 3 TE offense with 1 WR if the WR isn't great and Marv isn't

 

[Dback Jon]

I think it’s absolutely fascinating you treat Marv like he’s some 6th rounder, lowering your standards for him & all. Fascinating.

Because everything is Kyler’s fault in his eyes.

Is Kyle the greatest quarterback?

No, he’s a mid quarterback

But when you look at the catches that Pearsall last week and Cupp and other receivers made this week. Those were not perfect throws, but the wide receiver adjusted and made the catches.

About the only real adjustment catch the Cardinals made this week was Wilson’s first down catch which was spectacular

 

[SoonerLou]

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