OT: Kyler Murray Debacle Thread

[Chopper0080]

No that makes sense man, and it's a matter of each fan's perspective.

Does one think K1 is part of the solution, or part of the problem? If it's the latter, then one wants him gone. Immediately.

On your part, I think you think (correct me if I'm wrong please) that if we can somehow maximize Murray's potential, he can help us win a superbowl. You don't view the current QB1 situation as hopeless, by any means, which I appreciate. Hope you're summer is going good Britcard. What will happen if London gets a franchise? Will you jump ship?

Here is my controversial opinion, this is Kyler's maximized potential. I think the 2024 version of Kyler Murray is him at his max. His size isn't going to change. His physicality isn't going to change. His personality isn't going to change. His comfort in the pocket will not significantly change. His mechanics are not going to change. Hopefully his 2 minute play will change but who knows. He is 28, this is who he is.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's not the receivers. We've all seem him throw badly in inaccurate balls to open guys and the stats back this up.

Borg

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

yeah. sure we had the third best pass pro last year. lol

Nobody believes that britcard.

Which of pressure rate, sack rate, and time to throw do you have an issue with in terms of measurables?

I don’t think we have the third best pass pro, but this certainly flies in the face of the “Kyler is always running for his life” narrative.

 

[oaken1]

Here is my controversial opinion, this is Kyler's maximized potential. I think the 2024 version of Kyler Murray is him at his max. His size isn't going to change. His physicality isn't going to change. His personality isn't going to change. His comfort in the pocket will not significantly change. His mechanics are not going to change. Hopefully his 2 minute play will change but who knows. He is 28, this is who he is.

unfortunately his physicality will in fact change...which is why I, and apparently the coaching staff, and several others...want(ed) him to develop into a pocket passer.
a guy cant play joystick football forever. Even if he manages to avoid serious injury father time will drop a blindside hit on him at some point and remove the mobility option.
in a day where it is not unusual to see a QB play to 40...its the pocket passers that do it.
If we have a true "Franchise" quarterback,...in my eyes, playing to 40 (give or take) is an essential component....what hopium I can garner for our QB situation is based on the idea that his next contract will not be his last...the kid has always been crazy accurate...we wont see a payoff until he can combine that accuracy with the experience and courage to diagnose and dissect the defense.

 

[oaken1]

Which of pressure rate, sack rate, and time to throw do you have an issue with in terms of measurables?

I don’t think we have the third best pass pro, but this certainly flies in the face of the “Kyler is always running for his life” narrative.

right? because making the QB have to run for his life counts as a pressure doesnt it?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ok I don’t buy this at all. How much of his time to throw was created by him and not for him? Same with sacks. How many of those did he avoid on his own as opposed to great line play? You can’t just pretend that he doesn’t have pressure up the middle pretty consistently.

You’re definitely right there. But let’s not pretend the QB landscape is now littered with statues. QBs with wheels are more common now than ever. 16 teams have what I’d consider mobile QBs this season.

And while we see the internal pressure, this is all about comparison. Just because we see it doesn’t mean it might be better than what the majority of the league experiences as well. It’s all relative.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Man I will never forget what you wrote in the game day thread for the game against Philly in 2023. Right after K1 threw the pick six...

"Get that little bum out of there"

That was chilling BIM.

Out of all the normal guys on the board, I'm pretty sure you like K1 the least.

And it's really hard for me to understand how such a hard core fan like you could dislike any Cardinal player this much.

If he were out at the strip club every night, or not giving anything back to the community, etc I could see it. But by all accounts Murray is a decent guy.

I don't get it BIM. I mean, it's fine. It's whatever but I hold you in pretty high esteem and it bothers me that you hate my personal favorite Cardinal. lol.

Is there anything he could do to get back in good graces with you?

Play better?

This isn’t rocket science.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

right? because making the QB have to run for his life counts as a pressure doesnt it?

Exactly. So while his scramble may negate a sack it’s going show up in pressures. Great point.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Play better?

This isn’t rocket science.

Exactly.

However, the Kyler stans will point to the line, the receiver room, the playbook, the weather, horoscopes, planetary alignments, anything BUT Kyler himself needing to improve. It cannot be Kyler; it just has to be something else.

 

[BritCard]

No that makes sense man, and it's a matter of each fan's perspective.

Does one think K1 is part of the solution, or part of the problem? If it's the latter, then one wants him gone. Immediately.

On your part, I think you think (correct me if I'm wrong please) that if we can somehow maximize Murray's potential, he can help us win a superbowl. You don't view the current QB1 situation as hopeless, by any means, which I appreciate. Hope you're summer is going good Britcard. What will happen if London gets a franchise? Will you jump ship?

No, London sucks and it would be the Jags in disguise.

I'm certainly more on the negative than positive side. Too many of the things that have always plagued him are still there and to expect them to go this far into his career seems fanciful.

I think he's immensely talented but doesn't do the required work in the areas he needs to. I think he likes to work out and throw the ball around with the guys, I think he works very hard at those things. Sadly, the things he should be working hard at are not those things.

I'd like to have seen him with a Jordan Palmer type in the offseason, someone that would identify and tell him where his issues are and work on them. Studying defenses, anticipation, deep ball mechanics, pocket presence etc. This should have all been done years ago though, I think it's too late now.

What we will get is more of the same. Some wow highs and some dumb lows, and in between an offense that doesn't operate as it should because Kyler misses open guys, has poor reads, leaves the pocket when he shouldn't, misses on the deep ball and has zero clutch in his bag.

I think it is what it is now. An incredible talent that has never shown any willingness to accept and work on the weaknesses in his game.

 

[football karma]

Here is my controversial opinion, this is Kyler's maximized potential. I think the 2024 version of Kyler Murray is him at his max. His size isn't going to change. His physicality isn't going to change. His personality isn't going to change. His comfort in the pocket will not significantly change. His mechanics are not going to change. Hopefully his 2 minute play will change but who knows. He is 28, this is who he is.

I mostly agree, but will nit pick

I think players can continue to make small, marginal improvements in their game throughout their career-- especially a highly mental position like QB.

Kyler is banging around in the 12-16 range of QB. Small marginal improvements can get him into the top 10. You can win a SB with a top 10 QB.

 

[Stout]

No, London sucks and it would be the Jags in disguise.

I'm certainly more on the negative than positive side. Too many of the things that have always plagued him are still there and to expect them to go this far into his career seems fanciful.

I think he's immensely talented but doesn't do the required work in the areas he needs to. I think he likes to work out and throw the ball around with the guys, I think he works very hard at those things. Sadly, the things he should be working hard at are not those things.

I'd like to have seen him with a Jordan Palmer type in the offseason, someone that would identify and tell him where his issues are and work on them. Studying defenses, anticipation, deep ball mechanics, pocket presence etc. This should have all been done years ago though, I think it's too late now.

What we will get is more of the same. Some wow highs and some dumb lows, and in between an offense that doesn't operate as it should because Kyler misses open guys, has poor reads, leaves the pocket when he shouldn't, misses on the deep ball and has zero clutch in his bag.

I think it is what it is now. An incredible talent that has never shown any willingness to accept and work on the weaknesses in his game.

This. Exactly this.

 

[SECTION 11]

Exactly.

However, the Kyler stans will point to the line, the receiver room, the playbook, the weather, horoscopes, planetary alignments, anything BUT Kyler himself needing to improve. It cannot be Kyler; it just has to be something else.

Cmon man. You’ve never liked the pick and will hold anything against him. You’re easily as bad as the staunchest KM homer.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

he's the best we've had not named warner or palmer - he's also a major disappointment - can't depend on but we can't move on - kyler murray is neither heaven nor hell but rather purgatory - thankfully we'll be judged by our defense this year

 

[WisconsinCard]

Exactly. So while his scramble may negate a sack it’s going show up in pressures. Great point.

In some cases, but how many times has he spun right into a sack? They probably even themselves out.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Here is my controversial opinion, this is Kyler's maximized potential. I think the 2024 version of Kyler Murray is him at his max. His size isn't going to change. His physicality isn't going to change. His personality isn't going to change. His comfort in the pocket will not significantly change. His mechanics are not going to change. Hopefully his 2 minute play will change but who knows. He is 28, this is who he is.

I don't think that's controversial at all. Six years of track record give you a pretty good idea of who a guy is as a player.

There are obviously strange outliers where a guy improved a ton late, but the vast majority of QB's are who they are by year 7.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Which of pressure rate, sack rate, and time to throw do you have an issue with in terms of measurables?

I don’t think we have the third best pass pro, but this certainly flies in the face of the “Kyler is always running for his life” narrative.

I know what a clean pocket looks like because I saw opposing QBs doing their taxes before throwing a pass against us last season.

And Murray didn't have very many clean pockets in 2024. There were not necessarily a lot of free runners at him, but week in and week out, the pocket was getting collapsed quickly. 2024 Pass pro was a C-/D+. That's my opinion, if you disagree, great.

 

[CardinalCovfefe]

K1 can be real fun to watch at times and aside from his height, which is a big handicap, can use his arm and running abilities to make plays happen and be quite competitive. His kryptonite though is teams with a great pass rush and trying to come back late.
Primarily late in the season or when the games really count. He will at times blank out and just do utterly stupid things.

We’ve all heard him say numerous times, “I wanna win Superbowls”.
I don’t see it. Especially plural. He lacks the “ice in his veins” gene and being able to put the team on his back in big moments. He may eventually win a playoff game, but 2 in a row seems to be a stretch. Hopefully I’m wrong.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

No, London sucks and it would be the Jags in disguise.

I'm certainly more on the negative than positive side. Too many of the things that have always plagued him are still there and to expect them to go this far into his career seems fanciful.

I think he's immensely talented but doesn't do the required work in the areas he needs to. I think he likes to work out and throw the ball around with the guys, I think he works very hard at those things. Sadly, the things he should be working hard at are not those things.

I'd like to have seen him with a Jordan Palmer type in the offseason, someone that would identify and tell him where his issues are and work on them. Studying defenses, anticipation, deep ball mechanics, pocket presence etc. This should have all been done years ago though, I think it's too late now.

What we will get is more of the same. Some wow highs and some dumb lows, and in between an offense that doesn't operate as it should because Kyler misses open guys, has poor reads, leaves the pocket when he shouldn't, misses on the deep ball and has zero clutch in his bag.

I think it is what it is now. An incredible talent that has never shown any willingness to accept and work on the weaknesses in his game.

Hmmmm.. Not that I agree with all of this, but neither will I belabor the point. I appreciate your response because it lacks the sneering, contemptuous, undercurrent so many exhibit in their criticism of our well-read, loves-his-mother, QB1.

 

[Chopper0080]

unfortunately his physicality will in fact change...which is why I, and apparently the coaching staff, and several others...want(ed) him to develop into a pocket passer.
a guy cant play joystick football forever. Even if he manages to avoid serious injury father time will drop a blindside hit on him at some point and remove the mobility option.
in a day where it is not unusual to see a QB play to 40...its the pocket passers that do it.
If we have a true "Franchise" quarterback,...in my eyes, playing to 40 (give or take) is an essential component....what hopium I can garner for our QB situation is based on the idea that his next contract will not be his last...the kid has always been crazy accurate...we wont see a payoff until he can combine that accuracy with the experience and courage to diagnose and dissect the defense.

Running is not a critical part of his game. I don't think he is going to get so much slower that he can't do what he currently does with his legs before he retires. Some of that is I don't see Kyler player QB in the NFL at 35.

 

[Chopper0080]

I mostly agree, but will nit pick

I think players can continue to make small, marginal improvements in their game throughout their career-- especially a highly mental position like QB.

Kyler is banging around in the 12-16 range of QB. Small marginal improvements can get him into the top 10. You can win a SB with a top 10 QB.

I will nit pick your nit pick...Kyler is 28. At his current rate of improvement, those small, incremental improvements will cause him to be passed up by other QBs more than he gains on those currently ahead of him.

 

[football karma]

I will nit pick your nit pick...Kyler is 28. At his current rate of improvement, those small, incremental improvements will cause him to be passed up by other QBs more than he gains on those currently ahead of him.

that assumes 1-12 or so ahead of him are static as well. They wont be.

 

[kerouac9]

that assumes 1-12 or so ahead of him are static as well. They wont be.

They won’t be, but there are few older/declining QBs ahead of him anymore.

Most of them are younger or his age.

 

[BritCard]

Running is not a critical part of his game. I don't think he is going to get so much slower that he can't do what he currently does with his legs before he retires. Some of that is I don't see Kyler player QB in the NFL at 35.

Agree. I see a Cam Newton like career arc, but without his 2015 high.

Really all depends on how dumb Monti is and if they extend him again, but if it was me and it's another mediocre season I'm trading him and eating the $17m dead cap next offseason.

But when we eventually tire of him he'll bum around a couple more teams for 2-3 years and be done by 33.

 

[PACardsFan]

Here is my controversial opinion, this is Kyler's maximized potential. I think the 2024 version of Kyler Murray is him at his max. His size isn't going to change. His physicality isn't going to change. His personality isn't going to change. His comfort in the pocket will not significantly change. His mechanics are not going to change. Hopefully his 2 minute play will change but who knows. He is 28, this is who he is.

The question isn’t who he is. The question rightfully is who does he have around him on BOTH sides of the ball. He hasn’t had a WR1 since DHop & DHop was washed by 2022. And he’s NEVER had a legit defense in his entire career unless you want to include the first 7 games of 2021, when he was 7-0 & a MVP candidate.