Name three Suns with the worst +/- stat this season

[Covert Rain]

WTF Torrey Craig?!?

Using totals, it's no coincidence that Ayton is #1 in fouls, Craig is #2. To add insult to injury Ayton is #2 on the team in turnovers. Craig is #6 in Turnovers. So, I don't think it's match up issues. Why? Here are the def rating leaders on the team.

Biyombo 107.9
Ayton 113.3
Warren 111.8
Durant 112.2
Paul 112.3
Okogie 112.7
Wainright 112.8
Craig 113.1

Phoenix Suns Players Defensive Ratings | StatMuse

Devin Booker had a defensive rating of 117.5 for the Suns this season.

www.statmuse.com

 

[Covert Rain]

Probably not a good idea to look at the total numbers.

Looking at fouls per minute, Ayton is #8, Craig is #12, the fouling machines are Baz, Biz and Ross.

Looking and TOVs per minute,
Ayton is #8, Craig is #14, turnover machines are Baz, Payne and Book.

I disagree. When drawing comparison, if possible, you should use like for like. In other words totals to totals. I wouldn't compare +/- totals to averages if trying to correlate. If I was using per game +/- and comparing it to per game fouls and turnovers that easier to coorelate.

Having said that? According to ESPN Ayton is #5 in turnovers (1.8) and #2 in PF (2.8). Craig is #10 in turnovers (1.0) but in PF he is #4 (2.3). I still see correlation.

Both of those stats can lead to opposing points.

Phoenix Suns 2025-26 NBA Regular Season Stats - ESPN

Full team stats for the 2025-26 Regular Season Phoenix Suns on ESPN. Includes team leaders in points, rebounds and assists.

www.espn.com

 

[95pro]

Using totals, it's no coincidence that Ayton is #1 in fouls, Craig is #2. To add insult to injury Ayton is #2 on the team in turnovers. Craig is #6 in Turnovers. So, I don't think it's match up issues. Why? Here are the def rating leaders on the team.

Biyombo 107.9
Ayton 113.3
Warren 111.8
Durant 112.2
Paul 112.3
Okogie 112.7
Wainright 112.8
Craig 113.1

Phoenix Suns Players Defensive Ratings | StatMuse

Devin Booker had a defensive rating of 117.5 for the Suns this season.

www.statmuse.com

Ayton and Craig have probably played the most games of our backcourt. Our perimeter defense was and can be awful at times depending on what lineup is out there. I don't fault either of the those two. They can both pick up dumb fouls like all players but Ayton can't even touch a guy without being whistled despite going vertical, a little blame on the refs but the main issue is our perimeter defense when Lee, Lee and Washington were in.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Probably not a good idea to look at the total numbers.

Looking at fouls per minute, Ayton is #8, Craig is #12, the fouling machines are Baz, Biz and Ross.

Looking and TOVs per minute,
Ayton is #8, Craig is #14, turnover machines are Baz, Payne and Book.

Yeah but the majority of turnovers that are really Ayton’s fault due to failing to catch an easy pass or failing to seal his defender aren’t attributed to him. They’re attributed to the passer. So I view that ranking dubiously.

 

[djm75]

I disagree. When drawing comparison, if possible, you should use like for like. In other words totals to totals. I wouldn't compare +/- totals to averages if trying to correlate. If I was using per game +/- and comparing it to per game fouls and turnovers that easier to coorelate.

Having said that? According to ESPN Ayton is #5 in turnovers (1.8) and #2 in PF (2.8). Craig is #10 in turnovers (1.0) but in PF he is #4 (2.3). I still see correlation.

Both of those stats can lead to opposing points.

Phoenix Suns 2025-26 NBA Regular Season Stats - ESPN

Full team stats for the 2025-26 Regular Season Phoenix Suns on ESPN. Includes team leaders in points, rebounds and assists.

www.espn.com

Player 1 gets 5 fouls in 50 minutes.
Player 2 gets 20 fouls in 100 minutes.
Are you saying Player 2 fouls more often?

 

[Covert Rain]

Player 1 gets 5 fouls in 50 minutes.
Player 2 gets 20 fouls in 100 minutes.
Are you saying Player 2 fouls more often?

What I am saying is that looking at totals of fouls and turnovers it correlates because those create scoring opportunities for the other team. When you look at each players Defensive rating you begin to wonder how the +/- numbers could be. That is until you look at totals in those categories.

 

[djm75]

Yeah but the majority of turnovers that are really Ayton’s fault due to failing to catch an easy pass or failing to seal his defender aren’t attributed to him. They’re attributed to the passer. So I view that ranking dubiously.

This is a very good point.

 

[Proximo]

Sounds like a Max Salary and top 5 at position player..... NOT

He is a top 5 at his position player. There just aren't that many good centers.

I think Durant is going to be good for him. I just have a gut feeling his level of play is going to improve - maybe not so much as a scorer but as a defender and rebounder.

 

[95pro]

This is a very good point.

We've gone through all these lowlights in the Ayton thread, some good stuff in there

 

[Hoop Head]

He is a top 5 at his position player. There just aren't that many good centers.

I think Durant is going to be good for him. I just have a gut feeling his level of play is going to improve - maybe not so much as a scorer but as a defender and rebounder.

The same was said when Monty was hired, CP3 acquired, Javale was signed, once he was re-signed, etc. Every move that's been made since his first year was supposed to help get him to wake up and be more consistent. It's insane to continue believing this will be the move that gets him to wake up.

 

[Sparky16]

He is a top 5 at his position player. There just aren't that many good centers.

I think Durant is going to be good for him. I just have a gut feeling his level of play is going to improve - maybe not so much as a scorer but as a defender and rebounder.

He is terrible... he would be the 3rd best Center on Minnesota alone...

If he was who he claimed he is, he would be on BKN and Bridges would be playing here

The RFA and Trade Deadline proved what his value was/is since no one wants him

 

[Proximo]

He is terrible... he would be the 3rd best Center on Minnesota alone...

If he was who he claimed he is, he would be on BKN and Bridges would be playing here

The RFA and Trade Deadline proved what his value was/is since no one wants him

BS. Gobert is trash. Ayton is far superior, you can't even play Gobert against most teams he is such a liability on the perimeter.

 

[Proximo]

The same was said when Monty was hired, CP3 acquired, Javale was signed, once he was re-signed, etc. Every move that's been made since his first year was supposed to help get him to wake up and be more consistent. It's insane to continue believing this will be the move that gets him to wake up.

So it's your position he is never going to improve?

He has improved every year, it's just not as fast as anybody wants.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So it's your position he is never going to improve?

He has improved every year, it's just not as fast as anybody wants.

What has he improved this year?

 

[Proximo]

What has he improved this year?

His hook shot is much more reliable. His switching defense has improved.

Admittedly he hasn't improved much this year, but he has already made a bunch of comments that Durant has opened his eyes he has not been working hard enough and I haven't really ever heard him say something like that before.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So it's your position he is never going to improve?

He has improved every year, it's just not as fast as anybody wants.

I think he's gone the other direction this year. And faster than anybody wants.

I'm still not giving up on him but he's raised the frustration level of Suns fans by quite a bit.

 

[Cheesebeef]

His hook shot is much more reliable. His switching defense has improved.

You’re watching a different guy than I am. He’s been bad at every level of defense this year. If you’re hanging your hat on improvement on his hook shot in the face of BAD regression everywhere else, you’re argument is like pissing into the wind.

Admittedly he hasn't improved much this year, but he has already made a bunch of comments that Durant has opened his eyes he has not been working hard enough and I haven't really ever heard him say something like that before.

We have heard this kind of stuff about Ayton constantly.

 

[Covert Rain]

His hook shot is much more reliable. His switching defense has improved.

Admittedly he hasn't improved much this year, but he has already made a bunch of comments that Durant has opened his eyes he has not been working hard enough and I haven't really ever heard him say something like that before.

Is this wishful thinking or are there stats to back it up? It's a legit question. I have not looked his stats up recently. It's true that every season he has gotten better but earlier this season when I checked, his numbers were down and this would be the first season he has not improved.

Also, Ayton says that kind of stuff every single off season. Just this off season, he talked about being relentless and becoming the player he always wanted. He said he was going to out and take what is his. Ayton says a ton of stuff.

 

[DJ Tabooh]

BS. Gobert is trash. Ayton is far superior, you can't even play Gobert against most teams he is such a liability on the perimeter.

Gobert is a better rebounder and better rim protector. Yes he has deficiencies on the offensive end and can get roasted in small-ball lineups but people never question his effort. And the fact that he doesn’t need to score wouldn’t be bad with 2 guys who are shot hungry.

Ayton just seems like a body out there sometimes. Biz had a 17/13 game against the Sixers while doing a really good job on Embiid last week. Ayton is like a mist. Sometimes you'll notice him, other times he’ll disappear.

 

[95pro]

The same was said when Monty was hired, CP3 acquired, Javale was signed, once he was re-signed, etc. Every move that's been made since his first year was supposed to help get him to wake up and be more consistent. It's insane to continue believing this will be the move that gets him to wake up.

Yep we’ve heard ayton talk before, eh

 

[Mainstreet]

I think he's gone the other direction this year. And faster than anybody wants.

I'm still not giving up on him but he's raised the frustration level of Suns fans by quite a bit.

This may be the real Deandre Ayton we are seeing, however, I can't help but think playing alongside veteran players who demand attention will free him up as an offensive weapon.

If he is going to learn good habits, it should be now. He is playing alongside the best.

It's a matter of concentration on defense.

 

[Covert Rain]

This may be the real Deandre Ayton we are seeing, however, I can't help but think playing alongside veteran players who demand attention will free him up as an offensive weapon.

If he is going to learn good habits, it should be now. He is playing alongside the best.

It's a matter of concentration on defense.

I don't think from here on out we are going to see major leaps for Ayton. This might be near Ayton's ceiling. That's not to say he doesn't pick up good habits or can improve slightly here or there. However, I don't expect to see any major leaps from him and all of the sudden and become the next David Robinson. Ayton is who he is.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't think from here on out we are going to see major leaps for Ayton. This might be near Ayton's ceiling. That's not to say he doesn't pick up good habits or can improve slightly here or there. However, I don't expect to see any major leaps from him and all of the sudden and become the next David Robinson. Ayton is who he is.

Yeah, Ayton is not anywhere near making a leap like that. All I hope for is a player who plays with better fundamentals.

 

[Hoop Head]

So it's your position he is never going to improve?

He has improved every year, it's just not as fast as anybody wants.

Is he going to improve? Probably, but I don't think KD is going to light a fire under him. We've all witnessed his up and down play and effort over the years. Maybe he shows up more frequently with KD here now, that'd be nice, but I don't expect him to improve into an All-Star or near All-Star level player that can be a legit #2 on a playoff team. I'd be a little surprised if he decided to put forth the effort to be the #3 on a legit contender.

Before anyone says he is a #3 now, I don't buy it. That's CP3, for better or worse. Ayton hasn't stepped into that role so we need CP3 to turn back the clock and be more than a 37 year old riding off into the sunset if we want a real shot at the title this year. Ayton hasn't proven to be part of a big 3 and if Paul retires, Ayton needs to step up in a big way for this team to contend. I don't believe he has it in him to do that mentally. He has the skill, not the desire.

 

[Proximo]

Good grief the Ayton hate is over the top. It's almost like most of you are rooting for him to fail.