Suns @ Clippers Tuesday game thread 8-4-20 (season restart)

[1tinsoldier]

Bubble lessons:

1 - Rubio (when healthy) is still very effective.
2 - Saric losing weight is a completely different player.
3 - Cam clearly worked on his game during the break.
4 - Paying Oubre more than 15M per season would be a huge mistake. Pay a real PF instead.
5 - PAYING to get rid of TJ Warren was incredibly stupid.

1. yes
2. Saric is still a liability at crunch time when defenses tighten up on our more competent scorers and the ball ends up in his hands.
3. yes
4. as the team's emotional spark, Oubre is a must-sign. we need him NOW (we beat a team we should have and 2 others by 1 shot in the bubble).
5. yes. it was incredibly stupid to pay to get rid of TJ regardless of what he's scoring now. but glad to be rid of him. still am.

 

[JCSunsfan]

TJ is a scoring machine, especially since he added the three-pointer. He is just not a good fit with Book. He was a good fit offensively when he was just a catch and score forward, but Book needs more complete players around him. TJ in the primary scoring role works in Indy.

But we clearly should have gotten more for him.

 

[Chaplin]

Bubble lessons:

1 - Rubio (when healthy) is still very effective.
2 - Saric losing weight is a completely different player.
3 - Cam clearly worked on his game during the break.
4 - Paying Oubre more than 15M per season would be a huge mistake. Pay a real PF instead.
5 - PAYING to get rid of TJ Warren was incredibly stupid.

Regarding #5, yes, taken as a single transaction, it was pretty bad. But if you look at what freeing up the money from the cap that the trade offered, it is at least a break even, if not an actual gain. If that deal doesn't get done, then there's no Ricky Rubio, and probably no Dario Saric and Cam Johnson.

It's really the other 28 teams in the league that should be shooting themselves. They could have gotten TJ for pennies--they just didn't make any offers.

 

[95pro]

Cool. What's your point?

There's too much hype around his scoring, especially right now. He'll come back down, other than that he doesn't provide much else, never has.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

There's too much hype around his scoring, especially right now. He'll come back down, other than that he doesn't provide much else, never has.

He scores, and scores efficiently. Every team in the league has that as a need, including our home town heroes!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cool. What's your point?

Right? A stat line of 37 ppg, 5.7 rebounds and 3 assists literally has NOTHING to quibble about.

 

[Mainstreet]

With Sabonis out this has given Warren more of an opportunity to carry the load.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Right? A stat line of 37 ppg, 5.7 rebounds and 3 assists literally has NOTHING to quibble about.

Not to mention he only has 1 turnover. That's across all 3 games, not per game. 1 turnover.... that's pretty crazy considering how many touches he was consuming.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Regarding #5, yes, taken as a single transaction, it was pretty bad. But if you look at what freeing up the money from the cap that the trade offered, it is at least a break even, if not an actual gain. If that deal doesn't get done, then there's no Ricky Rubio, and probably no Dario Saric and Cam Johnson.

It's really the other 28 teams in the league that should be shooting themselves. They could have gotten TJ for pennies--they just didn't make any offers.

Sorry, but they put themselves in a terrible position of bargaining, which forced their hand to make a panic trade because of cap concerns. They don’t get points for that. They sold low on Warren when they should have moved him earlier. He wasn’t part of the future after we drafted SFs in the lotto in back to back years AND traded for Oubre as well. That made them desperate to get rid of TJ and his contract and that put them in a hole trying to get anything in return. So instead of trading him when his value was highest (and with his myriad of replacements on the roster) they watched him sulk, plummet his value and then got raped on a trade where they actually had to give something UP to get rid of a 19 ppg scorer on a 10 million dollar per deal. Not same set of players there to take Bledsoe’s job, but similar to how they KNEW he wasn’t their future and instead
Of selling high, they let the situation deteriorate where they HAD to get rid of him and got pennies on the dollar again.

i mean... we had to PAY to get rid of Warren. It’s okay to just say we made all the wrong moves holding on to him too long which led to us being forced to make a bad deal to open up cap space.

 

[Hoop Head]

Bubble lessons:

1 - Rubio (when healthy) is still very effective.
2 - Saric losing weight is a completely different player.
3 - Cam clearly worked on his game during the break.
4 - Paying Oubre more than 15M per season would be a huge mistake. Pay a real PF instead.
5 - PAYING to get rid of TJ Warren was incredibly stupid.

1 - That isn't something new to the bubble. When Rubio has played well, the Suns have followed.

2 - I don't believe he lost weight so much as he turned some of his flab into muscle. I know EJ has talked up the strength and conditioning work he's done over the last couple of months. He also seems to be much more aggressive than we've seen before. I can't remember who said it but another poster mentioned Saric playing as a Center and I can see that with Ayton on the floor with him. It's like they've swapped roles and it's benefitted everyone. Allowing Saric to start possessions inside and muscling to the basket for an easy bucket and allowing Ayton space in the midrange where he's damn near automatic.

3 - Cam has been great. He looks so much different now than he did at the beginning of the season. He's moving with the ball, rebounding well, staying in front of his man on D, and has been our top threat from 3pt range, spacing the floor for everyone.

4 - You're getting ahead of yourself here. If you said paying more than $20 million a season for him then I might be inclined to agree but $15-17 seems reasonable. It's not like the Suns have outplayed anyone by a significant degree. 2 of the 3 games came down to the final possession. If Oubre were playing in those outings there's a good chance those games could have been put away sooner.

As much as the Suns need a PF to round out their roster, I'm hard pressed to see where they'll find 30 minutes to play someone like an Aaron Gordon. Drafting the best PF available might be the way to go, develop them throughout the year in a reserve role.

5 - It was time to part ways with TJ but you are correct, paying to move him was a bad move. Thankfully it hasn't hurt the Suns very much, which is what keeps it from being an atrocious move.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Regarding #5, yes, taken as a single transaction, it was pretty bad. But if you look at what freeing up the money from the cap that the trade offered, it is at least a break even, if not an actual gain. If that deal doesn't get done, then there's no Ricky Rubio, and probably no Dario Saric and Cam Johnson

A fair part of the TJ analysis depends on how you view Rubio/Saric/Cam. Even with the recent Rubio/Saric revivals, I don't see either as having a long term future with the Suns. Cam (like Rubio/Saric) has shown much more in the bubble, but I'd still much rather have Brandon Clarke.

I would have much preferred another FA PG/Clarke/TJ to the Rubio/Saric/Cam trio.

It's really the other 28 teams in the league that should be shooting themselves. They could have gotten TJ for pennies--they just didn't make any offers.

Indeed.

 

[Mainstreet]

I will never be sorry about trading Ariza for Oubre. Ariza was a terrible signing.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

1 - That isn't something new to the bubble. When Rubio has played well, the Suns have followed.

True. It's incredible that he's only 29, but he's been playing professional hoops since 2005! The miles on his body between playing professionally so young and his Spanish national team commitments appear to have taken their toll. I'm pleased to see him playing well now, but am not forgetting all the missed games, and ineffective stretches because of niggling injuries.

2 - I don't believe he lost weight so much as he turned some of his flab into muscle. I know EJ has talked up the strength and conditioning work he's done over the last couple of months. He also seems to be much more aggressive than we've seen before. I can't remember who said it but another poster mentioned Saric playing as a Center and I can see that with Ayton on the floor with him. It's like they've swapped roles and it's benefitted everyone. Allowing Saric to start possessions inside and muscling to the basket for an easy bucket and allowing Ayton space in the midrange where he's damn near automatic.

I am pleased to see Saric in shape and contributing. I don't know why it took so long for him to be prepared for the season. He's much more active in general, both offensively and defensively. Prior to the bubble, he was fairly ineffective, but at this point, I'd consider extending him at a reasonable rate. (Under 12M)

3 - Cam has been great. He looks so much different now than he did at the beginning of the season. He's moving with the ball, rebounding well, staying in front of his man on D, and has been our top threat from 3pt range, spacing the floor for everyone.

Agreed with all of this.

4 - You're getting ahead of yourself here. If you said paying more than $20 million a season for him then I might be inclined to agree but $15-17 seems reasonable. It's not like the Suns have outplayed anyone by a significant degree. 2 of the 3 games came down to the final possession. If Oubre were playing in those outings there's a good chance those games could have been put away sooner.

Oubre terrifies me. I love his spirit, but I don't ever see him as being the 3rd best player on a championship team. If you're paying him 15-17 per, you're basically expecting that type of performance. Bubble squad doesn't seem to be missing anything he provides, and Bridges/Cam have earned more minutes.

As much as the Suns need a PF to round out their roster, I'm hard pressed to see where they'll find 30 minutes to play someone like an Aaron Gordon. Drafting the best PF available might be the way to go, develop them throughout the year in a reserve role.

Maybe...could go the rookie/Saric route, or try to trade for a legit 4.

 

[Hoop Head]

Maybe...could go the rookie/Saric route, or try to trade for a legit 4.

I think I'd prefer the Saric/Rookies route right now.

It's worth mentioning that Saric didn't start playing well in Minnesota last season until after the All-Star break. So it seems it takes him some time to get comfortable and acclimated to his teammates. He was more consistent during his time in Philadelphia so there is reason to believe that he'll be able to play similar to his current level if he's retained. I'm thinking something like 3 years/$25-30 million would be fair, 4 years/$35 million would be about the max. That gives him some security and wouldn't kill the Suns flexibility in the future. That seems fair for a fringe starter.

 

[Chaplin]

Sorry, but they put themselves in a terrible position of bargaining, which forced their hand to make a panic trade because of cap concerns. They don’t get points for that. They sold low on Warren when they should have moved him earlier. He wasn’t part of the future after we drafted SFs in the lotto in back to back years AND traded for Oubre as well. That made them desperate to get rid of TJ and his contract and that put them in a hole trying to get anything in return. So instead of trading him when his value was highest (and with his myriad of replacements on the roster) they watched him sulk, plummet his value and then got raped on a trade where they actually had to give something UP to get rid of a 19 ppg scorer on a 10 million dollar per deal. Not same set of players there to take Bledsoe’s job, but similar to how they KNEW he wasn’t their future and instead
Of selling high, they let the situation deteriorate where they HAD to get rid of him and got pennies on the dollar again.

i mean... we had to PAY to get rid of Warren. It’s okay to just say we made all the wrong moves holding on to him too long which led to us being forced to make a bad deal to open up cap space.

I only gave points that we were able to use the freed up space effectively. Do you disagree? I'm not arguing for the trade itself, but I'm not as devastated by it as you are. That's all.

 

[Mainstreet]

Huge compliment by Rubio on Booker's footwork.

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[Mainstreet]

Patrick Beverley reportedly injured left calf in Phoenix game.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/259026/Patrick-Beverley-Injures-Left-Calf

 

[1tinsoldier]

Oubre terrifies me. I love his spirit, but I don't ever see him as being the 3rd best player on a championship team. If you're paying him 15-17 per, you're basically expecting that type of performance. Bubble squad doesn't seem to be missing anything he provides, and Bridges/Cam have earned more minutes.

i see Oubre being the 3rd best player on a championship contending team IF Ayton was a true best 2nd player (or potential 1st) instead of a stat filler. Oubre brings demonstrative and contagious passion that the bubble squad needs. He turns frustration into infectious fire. In the 3rd against the Mavs, Booker and Ayton turned frustration into 5 fouls apiece.

 

[BC867]

He scores, and scores efficiently. Every team in the league has that as a need, including our home town heroes!

He would have to play Small Forward in place of our future All Defense player, Mikal Bridges.

Playing Warren at PF alongside Ayton would be a disaster. Not every team in the league needs
two soft Power Players.

 

[Superbone]

Patrick Beverley reportedly injured left calf in Phoenix game.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/259026/Patrick-Beverley-Injures-Left-Calf

And his pride.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

He would have to play Small Forward in place of our future All Defense player, Mikal Bridges.

Playing Warren at PF alongside Ayton would be a disaster. Not every team in the league needs
two soft Power Players.

Who said anything about Warren starting? Warren's ideal role would be as the primary scorer and shooting option on the bench, a Ced Ceballos fill it up type of guy.

 

[Chaplin]

Who said anything about Warren starting? Warren's ideal role would be as the primary scorer and shooting option on the bench, a Ced Ceballos fill it up type of guy.

Which probably would be something that would make him even more disengaged and aloof.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Which probably would be something that would make him even more disengaged and aloof.

agreed.

I’m not arguing we should have kept him. I just think we definitely should have gotten something for him.

 

[BC867]

Who said anything about Warren starting? Warren's ideal role would be as the primary scorer and shooting option on the bench, a Ced Ceballos fill it up type of guy.

IIRC, Warren said something about himself starting and made it known that he did not want to be downgraded to coming off the bench.

If we offered him a chance to come off the bench for the Suns right now, do you think that he would choose that over being the high
scorer as a starter, as he is now? Of course not! High scoring as a starter is the only thing that is making him a star.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

IIRC, Warren said something about himself starting and made it known that he did not want to be downgraded to coming off the bench.

If we offered him a chance to come off the bench for the Suns right now, do you think that he would choose that over being the high
scorer as a starter, as he is now? Of course not! High scoring as a starter is the only thing that is making him a star.

Which is why it's funny we picked up Oubre - Oubre is another guy who would likely flourish as the first option on the 2nd unit. You aren't going to sit Bridges, so what do you do with Oubre now?

It's interesting to compare the stats of Oubre and TJ -https://www.basketball-reference.co...+Warren&player_id2=warretj01&idx=bbr__players