Derek Brown

[CardinalCovfefe]

If QW wasn’t that guy at the NFL level.... what makes you think DB is??

makes no sense.

The tape man, the tape. That, and The stuff that makes his tape great. His motor. His attitude. His effort. All that stuff that the combine numbers don't measure. He may not be the next Reggie White, or Warren Sapp, but what if he turned out to be? The guy is NOT Dan Williams, I don't care what anybody says. He's a game wrecker.

You don't just look at QW's rookie year and turn that into a basis for ignoring a D. Brown.

 

[Finito]

No.... I would not prefer.

We had 3 good FA signings (Phillips, Kennard, & Campbell). And Allen, Alford, and PP trying to prove he deserves a contract all coming back next year.

That's over 50% turnover on your defense and it allows Byron to move into the slot (hopefully making him better).

5 new players. 2 rookies getting to their 2nd season (Thomson & Murphy). Another rookie coming back from injury. And your #1 and #2 CB.

Combine that with me continuously saying that I want Young, Okudah, or Simmons before anyone else. Then Wills next?

Is that not enough?

same boat as you

I’ll take Young, Simmons, Okudah and either Thomas or Wills any of those 5 and I’m good but all 3 of those defensive players over the two offensive lineman

 

[Solar7]

If QW wasn’t that guy at the NFL level.... what makes you think DB is??

makes no sense.

Why are we in the world of writing players off immediately after their rookie year?

This has become a trend on the board (and maybe the team). It's bizarre, when there's tons of examples of players who didn't explode out of the gate.

 

[Jetstream Green]

No problem.

My main thing is this:

A solid RT would represent the single greatest upgrade in talent on offense. And Simmons at ILB would represent the biggest upgrade to the defense.

Why draft a DL who may play 50 to 65% of the total snaps over an ILB or RT who may play closer to 80 or 90% of their snaps? Especially when Peters, Allen, Phillips, & Bullard are already there.

Young - Wont be there
Okudah - probably wont be there
Simmons - Probably wont be there
Wills - May be there
TRADE BACK


Those are my 1st 5 choices in that order. After that, more risk comes in to the picture.

I don't know, maybe because the draft is about the future... unless you see us winning a Super Bowl this year with some immediate impact as your judge

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

So you would prefer to simply ignore the fact the Cardinal D was the biggest issue in 2019 and that the teams in the NFC ran down their throat all last season.

Also you would ignore Justin Murray's grading from the last half of 2019, and that the Cards already have the best group of WR's in the division.
I would add that all of the "experts" that act like Brown's numbers at the combine disqualify him from consideration are just a bit too cozy with the idea that that is a massive factor. It's a piece of the puzzle. That's all it is.

Defense should be better:
1. Peterson won’t likely miss 6 games
2. Phillips/Campbell/Kennard all represent decent upgrades
3. Alford represents an upgrade (although less so)
4. Zach Allen figures to play more
5. Second year in scheme and it seemed to come together well in last quarter of the year posting 23ppg allowed compared to 27.6 all season.

they just need less important players than both starting CB and starting DE to miss time. I am expecting Hicks to check in with his biannual injury, however.

 

[WildBB]

Defense should be better:
1. Peterson won’t likely miss 6 games
2. Phillips/Campbell/Kennard all represent decent upgrades
3. Alford represents an upgrade (although less so)
4. Zach Allen figures to play more
5. Second year in scheme and it seemed to come together well in last quarter of the year posting 23ppg allowed compared to 27.6 all season.

they just need less important players than both starting CB and starting DE to miss time. I am expecting Hicks to check in with his biannual injury, however.

I think D. Brown, C. Peters and J. Phillips would represent a stout and pretty massive upgrade up front and really free up the LB's to fly around and create havoc.

I like Zach Allen but I'm not sure he's stout enough to hold up the whole season. Stud rotation piece though and great depth at DE if we do go DBrown at pick #8. Makes almost the most sense right at this point.

 

[DVontel]

If QW wasn’t that guy at the NFL level.... what makes you think DB is??

makes no sense.

You say this like QW just got done playing his 6th season.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

I think D. Brown, C. Peters and J. Phillips would represent a stout and pretty massive upgrade up front and really free up the LB's to fly around and create havoc.

I like Zach Allen but I'm not sure he's stout enough to hold up the whole season. Stud rotation piece though and great depth at DE if we do go DBrown at pick #8. Makes almost the most sense right at this point.

I wouldn’t be upset with Brown or Kinlaw. Although, I think I slightly prefer Kinlaw. Brown got to play with another topflight defensive lineman in Marlon Davidson.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I don't know, maybe because the draft is about the future... unless you see us winning a Super Bowl this year with some immediate impact as your judge

You say this like QW just got done playing his 6th season.

Which top DLineman took a year or two to get started?

The Bosa Brothers?
The Watt Brothers?
Donald?
Chris Jones?
Fletcher Cox?
Suh?
McCoy?

You could tell almost by week three that all of them were going to be stars. They took another 6 to 10 weeks (like Kyler) to show off how great they were going to be.

The only hope you have that he becomes a star is if he takes the DJ Reeder or Cam Heyward route route. They took 2 to 3 years but no one ever puts them in the same class as the guys above.

I guess some D-Ends took a year or two like Demarcus Lawrence..... but the interior guys usually flash immediately.

 

[Solar7]

Which top DLineman took a year or two to get started?

The Bosa Brothers?
The Watt Brothers?
Donald?
Chris Jones?
Fletcher Cox?
Suh?
McCoy?

You could tell almost by week three that all of them were going to be stars. They took another 6 to 10 weeks (like Kyler) to show off how great they were going to be.

The only hope you have that he becomes a star is if he takes the DJ Reeder or Cam Heyward route route. They took 2 to 3 years but no one ever puts them in the same class as the guys above.

I guess some D-Ends took a year or two like Demarcus Lawrence..... but the interior guys usually flash immediately.

Like, the vast majority of this list?

https://athlonsports.com/nfl/nfl-defensive-linemen-rankings

 

[Dr. Jones]

I think you are confusing a Jordan Phillips like D-End with a true D Tackle like Chris Jones or Fletcher Cox.

 

[TheCardFan]

No problem.

My main thing is this:

A solid RT would represent the single greatest upgrade in talent on offense. And Simmons at ILB would represent the biggest upgrade to the defense.

I believe I read that the last 6 games of the season, the RT graded out higher than the LT.

KK also said Gilbert was the best OT in training camp last year.

That isn't a glaring endorsement for Humphries.

We all agree that OL is still a major need on this team. I tend to think our biggest weakness this year is the interior of the line. I believe Sweezy and Shipley were our lowest graded OL.

Do we take one of these OL and play them at RG this year? Becton would absolutely maul people and I would imagine Wirfs would do well too.

That gives you flexibility going into next year.

I think you take a guy like Thomas to play RT this year and potentially LT in a year or two.

Can Murray play RG? I re-watched several of the games from last year and he moves well in space (pulls well) and does a very nice job getting to the 2nd level and actually moving people.

LT - Humphries
LG - Pugh (because we still have to contractually)
C - Cole
RG - Murray or Becton or Wirfs
RT - Thomas or Murray/Gilbert

 

[TheCardFan]

Why are we in the world of writing players off immediately after their rookie year?

This has become a trend on the board (and maybe the team). It's bizarre, when there's tons of examples of players who didn't explode out of the gate.

Nobody is writing them off but Q was as close to a sure thing DT as we have seen in a long time. He didn't have the type of impact anyone expected as a rookie.

If fact, who was the last DT taken in the top 10 that made an impact? Hint - it's been a very long time and there have been a lot of DT's taken.

History is not on Brown's side.

 

[Solar7]

Nobody is writing them off but Q was as close to a sure thing DT as we have seen in a long time. He didn't have the type of impact anyone expected as a rookie.

If fact, who was the last DT taken in the top 10 that made an impact? Hint - it's been a very long time and there have been a lot of DT's taken.

History is not on Brown's side.

I guess I just fail to see someone who won't have an impact on the game at his size with what appears to be strong character. Even if he's not elite, I'm at the point where I'll take a set it and forget it starter.

I'd argue where we stand today, the trenches on both sides of the ball are where we're at our worst. So whether it's him or an OT, I'd feel pretty good. (Simmons and Okudah too)

 

[DVontel]

We’re not drafting some damn Andrew Thomas.

 

[TheCardFan]

I guess I just fail to see someone who won't have an impact on the game at his size with what appears to be strong character. Even if he's not elite, I'm at the point where I'll take a set it and forget it starter.

I'd argue where we stand today, the trenches on both sides of the ball are where we're at our worst. So whether it's him or an OT, I'd feel pretty good. (Simmons and Okudah too)

I agree with you on the trenches and we need OL upgrades across the line TBH.

I would argue that an elite pass rusher like Chaisson would be more valuable to the defense than a run stuffing DT like Brown.

QB is the premium position in the NFL but followed very closely by pass rusher.

Run stuffing DT's are way down the list and can be found later in the draft.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I don't know how you can refer to Chaisson as elite.

At the 8 pick.... we have the chance to get one of the top tier positional players in this draft. And regardless of what many think of DJ Humphries, he is going to be our LT (probably) into his early thirties. You just dont give up on guys like him.

We need a RT. I don't care how good KK schemed his offense to avoid it, our RT position is our biggest problem. Followed by Center.

On defense..... the ILB spot is not only the biggest need on defense.... it is the biggest need positionally on both sides of the ball. I keep having to say this, but our defense gave up the 2nd best TE fantasy season of all time. All freaking time!!!

You can't pass up an opportunity to grab an elite pass rusher (young) or a top tier CB prospect (Okudah) but other than that..... our two main priorities need to be Simmons or Wills.

If they like Wirfs over Wills..... fine. It will be dissapointing to me, but take the damn dude.

With that being said..... I will not hate on this team for doubling down on our offensive firepower. EVER. Especially if it means not drafting Brown or Becton (My two choices for biggest bomb of the draft). Give me Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs WAY BEFORE those two.

The top tier of this draft in order:
Young
Okudah
Simmons

The next tier in order:
Wills
Lamb
Jeudy

The next tier in no particular order
Ruggs
Wirfs
Thomas
Kinlaw

After that..... the Risk for each player goes up

 

[TheCardFan]

I don't know how you can refer to Chaisson as elite.

At the 8 pick.... we have the chance to get one of the top tier positional players in this draft. And regardless of what many think of DJ Humphries, he is going to be our LT (probably) into his early thirties. You just dont give up on guys like him.

We need a RT. I don't care how good KK schemed his offense to avoid it, our RT position is our biggest problem. Followed by Center.

Agreed. I should have said "elite traits" as a pass rusher. He isn't Von Miller coming out of college.

However, I disagree that DJ will be our LT into his 30's unless his play considerably improves. KK already said Gilbert was the best OT in camp...not DJ. Plus the last 6 games Murray was rated higher than DJ.

I think the safest players in the draft are Young, Okudah, and Simmons but I don't think they will be there at #8. If they are...take them.

Thomas may be the safest OT. Many will argue but its hard to argue with his production at LT and RT since he was freshman in the SEC plus he has the same agility as Wirfs.

Wills maybe the next closest sure thing at RT.

Wirfs and Becton have high upsides but also risk. Wirfs is super athletic and had great coaching but never dominated consistently in the run or pass game vs 21 year old kids. Why would he do that in the NFL all of a sudden? Becton did dominate 21 year olds but didn't have a true passing game scheme. I think our offense is well suited to his strengths and he is the better risk to take.

Chaisson, Brown, Kinlaw - are all freaks with limited production in college. How will they translate to the NFL? I tend to side with a pass rusher...you can always use that skill.

 

[DVontel]

I don't know how you can refer to Chaisson as elite.

At the 8 pick.... we have the chance to get one of the top tier positional players in this draft. And regardless of what many think of DJ Humphries, he is going to be our LT (probably) into his early thirties. You just dont give up on guys like him.

We need a RT. I don't care how good KK schemed his offense to avoid it, our RT position is our biggest problem. Followed by Center.

On defense..... the ILB spot is not only the biggest need on defense.... it is the biggest need positionally on both sides of the ball. I keep having to say this, but our defense gave up the 2nd best TE fantasy season of all time. All freaking time!!!

You can't pass up an opportunity to grab an elite pass rusher (young) or a top tier CB prospect (Okudah) but other than that..... our two main priorities need to be Simmons or Wills.

If they like Wirfs over Wills..... fine. It will be dissapointing to me, but take the damn dude.

With that being said..... I will not hate on this team for doubling down on our offensive firepower. EVER. Especially if it means not drafting Brown or Becton (My two choices for biggest bomb of the draft). Give me Lamb, Jeudy, or Ruggs WAY BEFORE those two.

The top tier of this draft in order:
Young
Okudah
Simmons

The next tier in order:
Wills
Lamb
Jeudy

The next tier in no particular order
Ruggs
Wirfs
Thomas
Kinlaw

After that..... the Risk for each player goes up

How upset will you be when Simmons is 3 yards behind a TE because Vance Joseph can’t scheme his way out of a brown paper bag against TEs?

 

[DVontel]

Agreed. I should have said "elite traits" as a pass rusher. He isn't Von Miller coming out of college.

However, I disagree that DJ will be our LT into his 30's unless his play considerably improves. KK already said Gilbert was the best OT in camp...not DJ. Plus the last 6 games Murray was rated higher than DJ.

I think the safest players in the draft are Young, Okudah, and Simmons but I don't think they will be there at #8. If they are...take them.

Thomas may be the safest OT. Many will argue but its hard to argue with his production at LT and RT since he was freshman in the SEC plus he has the same agility as Wirfs.

Wills maybe the next closest sure thing at RT.

Wirfs and Becton have high upsides but also risk. Wirfs is super athletic and had great coaching but never dominated consistently in the run or pass game vs 21 year old kids. Why would he do that in the NFL all of a sudden? Becton did dominate 21 year olds but didn't have a true passing game scheme. I think our offense is well suited to his strengths and he is the better risk to take.

Chaisson, Brown, Kinlaw - are all freaks with limited production in college. How will they translate to the NFL? I tend to side with a pass rusher...you can always use that skill.

The consensus doesn’t know what positions Simmons isn’t even going to play. How in the world is he one of the safest?

 

[TheCardFan]

Then we will fire VJ next year and have an amazing talent someone else can use properly.

Nobody has been able to answer whether this is a scheme issue or a talent issue.

I watched Reddick make false steps and be late to recognize the TE on many plays. Dude played DE in college!

Hicks has never been known as a coverage LB that I know of.

 

[TheCardFan]

The consensus doesn’t know what positions Simmons isn’t even going to play. How in the world is he one of the safest?

Athletic profile, production in college, scheme diversity, position versatility, etc.

 

[Dr. Jones]

How upset will you be when Simmons is 3 yards behind a TE because Vance Joseph can’t scheme his way out of a brown paper bag against TEs?

Not upset..... Sad.

Chaisson, Brown, Kinlaw - are all freaks with limited production in college. How will they translate to the NFL? I tend to side with a pass rusher...you can always use that skill.

I look for freakish traits and production. Only Kinlaw had both. And he did it while being triple teamed most of the time. PBU's, sacks, etc. And he's a true interior guy like Brown.

Brown had a bad combine. No two ways about it.
Chaisson has some production and I love his TFL stats. Just not wild about his overall package.

Peters is still starting. He's still our guy inside IMO.

Humphries at 26/27 is right where the good OT's are at that age. He just needs to fix his mental errors and penalties. Is he perfect? No. Good enough to not be a liability? Yes.

 

[TheCardFan]

I look for freakish traits and production. Only Kinlaw had both. And he did it while being triple teamed most of the time. PBU's, sacks, etc. And he's a true interior guy like Brown.

Humphries at 26/27 is right where the good OT's are at that age. He just needs to fix his mental errors and penalties. Is he perfect? No. Good enough to not be a liability? Yes.

I live Kinlaw more than Brown, especially for what we need on DL.

However, I wouldn't say he had the production you would want from a top 10 pick.

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RE Humphries - "not being a liability" is not what I want protecting my franchise QB at LT and getting paid top LT money.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Brown was pretty much neutralized by Alabama when his Bull Rush didn't work very well against NFL caliber talent:

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