Corner Comparisons

[JeffGollin]

I must confess to not watching a lot of footage on various players, but I did get to see brief clips on Rudy Ford and Brandon Williams.

Williams seemed to be slower-twitched, a bit stiff and somewhat thick in the thighs.

Ford looked quicker and more agile.

I have no idea how much any of this will translate to actual game performance, but - considering the number of corners competing for the #2 CB position - the more tape we get to see on more guys, the more sense we'll make out of the Cardinal CB "salmon swim."

 

[WindCardinal]

It's going to be very interesting... CB2 is definitely the biggest question mark on the entire team. It's funny when I play madden 17 and "auto reorder" the depth chart it puts Tyvon branch at CB2. I know it's a video game but he could be in the mix as well.

 

[Harry]

Neither of those guys helps me sleep better at night. If I were the Cards I'd take a shot at Sam Shields. His concussion issue kind of makes him a time bomb, but he might last long enough to get one of the other guys ready. He once was a solid corner. Bethel actually looked a little better at year's end. Williams didn't. I don't see Ford at corner for so many reasons. Maybe Cards get a miracle and Shields lasts the year.

 

[robert ethan]

Ford put up same stats at same position in SEC as Baker did in PAC12 over 3 years. Rudy is bigger, faster, and seems hella smarter than Baker. For what that's worth. He also returned kicks and played some on the other side of the ball. Sort of a poor man's Jabrill Peppers.

 

[DVontel]

Ford put up same stats at same position in SEC as Baker did in PAC12 over 3 years. Rudy is bigger, faster, and seems hella smarter than Baker. For what that's worth. He also returned kicks and played some on the other side of the ball. Sort of a poor man's Jabrill Peppers.

Based off?

 

[robert ethan]

Based off?

The Peppers comparison? That would be Ford being a top athlete who played on both sides of the ball, but mostly defense, and returned kicks. They were drafted at the some position, with Peppers being 10 pounds heavier, and having had a more impressive college career. But Ford seems less sketchy in terms of potential off field issues.

edit - Oh, sorry, just saw the bolded part. Interviews, Baker doesn't seem like the brightest bulb on the tree by any means. He had a very low Wonderlic score to back that up. Ford seems much brighter and more articulate.

edit - Actually, Wonderlic was 14, which isn't terrible for the position.

 

[Mitch]

Ford put up same stats at same position in SEC as Baker did in PAC12 over 3 years. Rudy is bigger, faster, and seems hella smarter than Baker. For what that's worth. He also returned kicks and played some on the other side of the ball. Sort of a poor man's Jabrill Peppers.

While there is a lot to like about Rudy Ford's athleticism, combativeness and motor, talent-wise and leadership-wise Budda Baker is head and shoulders above the vast majority of DBs in the 2017 draft class. The Steelers' CB Ike Taylor felt that Baker was the #1 safety in the draft. Your comment about Ford seeming "hella smarter than Baker" is woefully ignorant . Check out what Taylor says about the 5 best safeties in this draft and check out why he has Baker rated #1 ("he calls all the shots") even over Jamal Adams and Malik Hooker.

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[Lagerfilled]

While there is a lot to like about Rudy Ford's athleticism, combativeness and motor, talent-wise and leadership-wise Budda Baker is head and shoulders above the vast majority of DBs in the 2017 draft class. The Steelers' CB Ike Taylor felt that Baker was the #1 safety in the draft. Your comment about Ford seeming "hella smarter than Baker" is woefully ignorant . Check out what Taylor says about the 5 best safeties in this draft and check out why he has Baker rated #1 ("he calls all the shots") even over Jamal Adams and Malik Hooker.

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Great call Mitch! This is why I keep going back to the Earl Thomas comparison. When ET went out for the Hawks last year, they were absolutely lost in the secondary even with the likes of Sherman and Chancellor on patrol.

Baker has that "it" factor to be the boss hog of the Cards back end. IMHO, Ford is JAG until he proves otherwise.

 

[robert ethan]

Baker is definitely a good position fit for the Card defense. Mathieu plays such a breakneck style you can't expect 16 games out of him. But it's interesting that they're talking of Ford playing outside corner and not Budda. That makes Rudy the more valuable prospect to me. He has played all the positions that Baker did in college, plus some offensive snaps, and is apparently regarded as a possible cover corner. Also Ford played in the SEC which has better athletes overall and is tougher for defensive backs to stand out.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Living in Washington for 7 years prior to this past summer, I've been hearing Budda Bakers name for 5 years or so.

Baker is probably going to be a Pro Bowler at some point. That is my fearless prediction.

 

[WildBB]

They certainly have options that could work out. Mathieu and Baker are the fall back guys.

They could move Buccanon back to safety as well.

 

[JeffGollin]

The Peppers comparison? That would be Ford being a top athlete who played on both sides of the ball, but mostly defense, and returned kicks. They were drafted at the some position, with Peppers being 10 pounds heavier, and having had a more impressive college career. But Ford seems less sketchy in terms of potential off field issues.

edit - Oh, sorry, just saw the bolded part. Interviews, Baker doesn't seem like the brightest bulb on the tree by any means. He had a very low Wonderlic score to back that up. Ford seems much brighter and more articulate.

edit - Actually, Wonderlic was 14, which isn't terrible for the position.

RE - Please show me a high correlation between Wunderlic scores and actual performance on the field from player to player and maybe I'll buy what you say.

Please clarify one other point - Two youngsters: one a diddybopper from the 'hood/the other a well-spoken clean cut suburban type. Are you saying that the preppy guy is automatically more likely to succeed than the product of the ghetto? That's not what you meant was it? Just want to be sure.

 

[JeffGollin]

Great call Mitch! This is why I keep going back to the Earl Thomas comparison. When ET went out for the Hawks last year, they were absolutely lost in the secondary even with the likes of Sherman and Chancellor on patrol.

Baker has that "it" factor to be the boss hog of the Cards back end. IMHO, Ford is JAG until he proves otherwise.

Great back 'n forth, but rather than compare Ford and Baker as two safeties, I was hoping we'd compare Ford with other Cardinal corners -especially in terms of pure athletic traits

 

[cardncubfan]

RE - Please show me a high correlation between Wunderlic scores and actual performance on the field from player to player and maybe I'll buy what you say.

Please clarify one other point - Two youngsters: one a diddybopper from the 'hood/the other a well-spoken clean cut suburban type. Are you saying that the preppy guy is automatically more likely to succeed than the product of the ghetto? That's not what you meant was it? Just want to be sure.

I believe Favre had a very low score as well as another prolific passer whose name escapes at the moment.

 

[robert ethan]

All other things being equal, yeah, teams and coaches would rather have the smarter guy. Wonderlic gets trashed mercilessly every year, but they keep using it. Sure you can find exceptions, but you can find exceptions for all the tests. If you went by Combine numbers for the athletic skills, Tyrann Mathieu probably wouldn't have gotten a tryout invite. But he has something not easily quantifiable which allows him to out perform bigger, faster, stronger players. Ability to learn and reason is part of the package. It enables players to have greater or lesser chance to realize full athletic potential, and is indicative of the speed with which they become conversant with schemes and verbiage.

 

[robert ethan]

Great back 'n forth, but rather than compare Ford and Baker as two safeties, I was hoping we'd compare Ford with other Cardinal corners -especially in terms of pure athletic traits

The most obvious comparison is with Brandon Williams. They are similar size, speed, and both are converted running backs. They just doubled their chances of finding the "other CB" in the 2017 draft.

 

[Krangodnzr]

RE - Please show me a high correlation between Wunderlic scores and actual performance on the field from player to player and maybe I'll buy what you say.

Please clarify one other point - Two youngsters: one a diddybopper from the 'hood/the other a well-spoken clean cut suburban type. Are you saying that the preppy guy is automatically more likely to succeed than the product of the ghetto? That's not what you meant was it? Just want to be sure.

I remember Peterson did epically poor on the wonderlic. IIRC Peterson said he didn't really try at all on it.

Other than QB and OL, wonderlic means nothing for other positions.

 

[pinetopred]

I don't think the guy who ends up playing the number 2 cb for most of the season is on our roster currently. Keim has drafted some very good althetes the last couple years but these guys are just raw. I really like what they will bring to STs and some spot play but that's about it this year. I like them alot more next year.

 

[JeffGollin]

All other things being equal, yeah, teams and coaches would rather have the smarter guy. Wonderlic gets trashed mercilessly every year, but they keep using it. Sure you can find exceptions, but you can find exceptions for all the tests. If you went by Combine numbers for the athletic skills, Tyrann Mathieu probably wouldn't have gotten a tryout invite. But he has something not easily quantifiable which allows him to out perform bigger, faster, stronger players. Ability to learn and reason is part of the package. It enables players to have greater or lesser chance to realize full athletic potential, and is indicative of the speed with which they become conversant with schemes and verbiage.

I agree in part that having certain verbal and learning skills are better than not having them. But I think there are other non-athletic intangibles that trump the more traditional ones.

Example - Some very bright dudes with good presentation skills may "think too much", get rattled under pressure or have slow reflexes or ball-location deficiencies. I suspect the most effective way to evaluate football players is to be "site-specific (i.e. look at the entire player rather than the sum of his statistical parts).

 

[robert ethan]

I agree in part that having certain verbal and learning skills are better than not having them. But I think there are other non-athletic intangibles that trump the more traditional ones.

Example - Some very bright dudes with good presentation skills may "think too much", get rattled under pressure or have slow reflexes or ball-location deficiencies. I suspect the most effective way to evaluate football players is to be "site-specific (i.e. look at the entire player rather than the sum of his statistical parts).

Sure, and that happens. Most scouting staffs say they depend 80-90% on film study. But we civilians who don't have the time or inclination (or access) to watch a lot of film, the test numbers are significant. Along with player interviews which are easily accessible online.

 

[JeffGollin]

Sure, and that happens. Most scouting staffs say they depend 80-90% on film study. But we civilians who don't have the time or inclination (or access) to watch a lot of film, the test numbers are significant. Along with player interviews which are easily accessible online.

It's like appraising a house - You know the square-feet or acreage, but the the roof may leak, the foundation's funky or it's got a huge deck with a gorgeous view. I'll use measurements and workout numbers to "set the frame" for a player and use those numbers to set minimum standards (Is he big enough? Is he fast enough?)

At the opposite end, I'll look for off-the-chart numbers that get my attention (Does this kid warrant a closer look?)

I'll also scan the numbers for "surprises" (i.e. why did the 5-9 blazer only run a 4.65? How about the "too slow" ILB who clocks a 4.60?)

Finaly, these numbers aren't an end-all - merely a way not to go overboard on some players or give up on others too early

 

[robert ethan]

It's like appraising a house - You know the square-feet or acreage, but the the roof may leak, the foundation's funky or it's got a huge deck with a gorgeous view. I'll use measurements and workout numbers to "set the frame" for a player and use those numbers to set minimum standards (Is he big enough? Is he fast enough?)

At the opposite end, I'll look for off-the-chart numbers that get my attention (Does this kid warrant a closer look?)

I'll also scan the numbers for "surprises" (i.e. why did the 5-9 blazer only run a 4.65? How about the "too slow" ILB who clocks a 4.60?)

Finaly, these numbers aren't an end-all - merely a way not to go overboard on some players or give up on others too early

Ha, this is timely. http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and...ndencies/fc64490e-6c40-481f-97e1-9cd2eba0b0d9 I almost used Scooby as an example instead of Tyrann. Works both ways...

 

[overseascardfan]

http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and...n-Bethel/904963d5-acae-4a9c-84a0-74c00d52984b

Last week I heard on one of the morning radio shows, probably Doug & Wolf, that Brandon Williams spent the offseason learning how to run backwards (back pedal), this article confirms it. How do you draft a CB in Round 3 that doesn't know how to back pedal, that is the most basic and essential skill to play CB!!!!

 

[pinetopred]

http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and...n-Bethel/904963d5-acae-4a9c-84a0-74c00d52984b

Last week I heard on one of the morning radio shows, probably Doug & Wolf, that Brandon Williams spent the offseason learning how to run backwards (back pedal), this article confirms it. How do you draft a CB in Round 3 that doesn't know how to back pedal, that is the most basic and essential skill to play CB!!!!

4.3 raw very few people can run the way he does Keim draftes guys who are athletes and they coachem up just the way he draftes and I like the philosophy not much wear on the tires or bad coaching to coach out

 

[WildBB]

http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and...n-Bethel/904963d5-acae-4a9c-84a0-74c00d52984b

Last week I heard on one of the morning radio shows, probably Doug & Wolf, that Brandon Williams spent the offseason learning how to run backwards (back pedal), this article confirms it. How do you draft a CB in Round 3 that doesn't know how to back pedal, that is the most basic and essential skill to play CB!!!!

They all test in back pedaling at the combine. It's how they can turn fluidly and at the right moment from the back pedal consistently. They have to work on this technique constantly for it to be (stay) second nature.