ARI@STL: Heroes and Goats

[kerouac9]

That's your opinion. Far easier to come in as a RB than an OL. Even the best OL struggle initially.

Many were calling Okafor crap before the last few games - he obviously had a learning curve, and he is in his second season playing.

Watford? Struggled early.


And no OL is perfect - please answer the second part of my question.

Do your own research. Apparently people here don't trust my evaluations. I'm working on a screencap of every one of Cooper's offensive plays depending on my time in the office doing productive activities. Maybe tomorrow or Thursday.

That said, I don't think that the player gets better if you say, "well, you opened the gate and held this guy, but you didn't get flagged and the QB didn't get hit, so all good." Hopefully, the conversation that Chopper and I are having is the same conversation that coaches are having with Cooper.

Alex Okafor had 5 defensive snaps his rookie season. Do you really think that he's so much further ahead in his development process based on those 5 snaps than Cooper is right now? That's balderdash. I'd like you to find those threads where people were saying that Alex Okafor "sucked" up until the last couple weeks. I'm pretty sure that people have been asking me to add him to my "Heroes" list for the past month or more.

 

[TJ]

That's your opinion. Far easier to come in as a RB than an OL. Even the best OL struggle initially.



Many were calling Okafor crap before the last few games - he obviously had a learning curve, and he is in his second season playing.



Watford? Struggled early.





And no OL is perfect - please answer the second part of my question.

Bingo

The bottom line is I've never seen one offensive lineman analyzed to this degree on this board. Hell, I'm not sure I've seen any player broken down and picked apart ever, and I'm including the array of QBs we've seen the past four years.If you were to watch each lineman exclusively with this same intensity for 60 snaps, you're going to find a mixture of excellent plays, missed assignments, technique deficiencies, etc. we're getting to the point of paralysis by analysis.

No one is perfect, especially not someone with a whopping two starts under his belt.

 

[cardpa]

K9 and Chopper are absolutely correct about Cooper. It's that simple. To deny it otherwise is to put on your rose colored glasses.

 

[Dback Jon]

Do your own research. Apparently people here don't trust my evaluations. I'm working on a screencap of every one of Cooper's offensive plays depending on my time in the office doing productive activities. Maybe tomorrow or Thursday.

That said, I don't think that the player gets better if you say, "well, you opened the gate and held this guy, but you didn't get flagged and the QB didn't get hit, so all good." Hopefully, the conversation that Chopper and I are having is the same conversation that coaches are having with Cooper.

Alex Okafor had 5 defensive snaps his rookie season. Do you really think that he's so much further ahead in his development process based on those 5 snaps than Cooper is right now? That's balderdash. I'd like you to find those threads where people were saying that Alex Okafor "sucked" up until the last couple weeks. I'm pretty sure that people have been asking me to add him to my "Heroes" list for the past month or more.

Okafor in his first few games this year? Crap. Last month - very good.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'll tell you that there is a significant difference between executing and improving your technique in practice, along with developing and refining a solid mental approach to the game, which all has a significant impact on your technique and overall performance.

There are things that only in-game experience can help. To Cooper's credit, he is a de facto rookie because he doesn't have the in-game experience needed to grow.

Additionally, I don't think his technique is awful, but even now, he's still a solid lineman and an upgrade over Larsen or Fanaika. For him to improve, he needs to be out there more.

First...footwork and techinique is specifically refined in practice and in training camp. Once you get to a game, you aren't refining anything. Also, techinique and footwork is based mostly on reps and muscle memory. Practice reps are recorded and evaluated to give you an idea of what you need to work on, and while you are in the meetings, you are also taking mental reps critiquing your fellow players. Application is totally different than preparation. Preparing is putting your self in the right position while application is your ability to execute what is asked. Cooper is failing to put himself in the right position which is purely a preparation issue.

Regarding his technique, I am curious to learn why you think consistently spinning in circles, being on the ground, and playing without your shoulders square to the LOS is not awful technique? I agree, that he needs to play, but bad is still bad.

 

[Chopper0080]

K9 and Chopper are absolutely correct about Cooper. It's that simple. To deny it otherwise is to put on your rose colored glasses.

Thank you for recognizing this. I appreciate YOUR appreciation of facts and analysis over speculation and generalizations.

You are welcome.

 

[Chopper0080]

Okafor in his first few games this year? Crap. Last month - very good.

Okafor was inactive/injured the first few games this year. The overall opinion was that a 4th round pick better find a way to get healthy and get on the field if he wants to stay on the roster. He did, and he has.

 

[Azlen]

There was obviously a reason that Cooper didn't crack the starting lineup until the guy in front of him was hurt. He has a lot to work on. The offensive line has played well though as a whole, doesn't mean that Cooper is the answer though. He needs to get better.

 

[Chopper0080]

Bingo

The bottom line is I've never seen one offensive lineman analyzed to this degree on this board. Hell, I'm not sure I've seen any player broken down and picked apart ever, and I'm including the array of QBs we've seen the past four years.If you were to watch each lineman exclusively with this same intensity for 60 snaps, you're going to find a mixture of excellent plays, missed assignments, technique deficiencies, etc. we're getting to the point of paralysis by analysis.

No one is perfect, especially not someone with a whopping two starts under his belt.

And why is this? Because one poster identified a player who played a poor game, and individuals challenged that assertion by claiming that is was inaccurate, and due to personal bias. That assertion was then backed up with facts. Those facts were then dismissed as incomplete, and then invalid due to others claiming they didn't see it that way. Because of that, specific instances were pointed out. Now those facts are being dismissed due to a player being treated like he has less experience as a professional football player than he actually does because he hasn't played in games.

I have no problem with people stating their opinions or challenging other people's opinions, but if you are going to do so, be ready to come with facts rather than uninformed opinions.

 

[kerouac9]

Okafor in his first few games this year? Crap. Last month - very good.

Okafor came in for his first game in Week 5 against Denver and played 10 snaps without recording a tackle. Can't believe there was a lot of complaining about that.

Okafor followed up that game with 2 sacks against the Washington Professional Football team and hasn't really looked back. His performance has been average with peaks of special.

Cooper's performance has been below average with peaks of average and troughs of looking like a rookie 5th round pick.

Okafor was inactive/injured the first few games this year. The overall opinion was that a 4th round pick better find a way to get healthy and get on the field if he wants to stay on the roster. He did, and he has.

Yeah. This.

 

[Chopper0080]

There was obviously a reason that Cooper didn't crack the starting lineup until the guy in front of him was hurt. He has a lot to work on. The offensive line has played well though as a whole, doesn't mean that Cooper is the answer though. He needs to get better.

I agree with this.

 

[Chopper0080]

This is not at anyone specifically as much as it is to the board in general.

People have fought that Kevin Minter was a good player, and it has been proven he isn't at this point.

People have fought that Stanton should keep the starting spot over Carson Palmer because he was better, and it has been proven he isn't.

Now people are fighting that Cooper's play isn't bad right now, which is being proven to be inaccurate. His play is bad right now. I have provided proof in this thread to that fact. It doesn't mean that it can't get better. It just means he didn't use his time to prepare correctly, and hit the ground running like he needed to ala Alex Okafor.

If you ask a question and then put your hands over your ears, yelling LALALALALALALA, I can't help you. If you want to create reasons why a player isn't playing to his draft status or ability, I can't help you. If you want to make the end result more important the the steps taken to get there, I can't help you.

 

[juza76]

This is not at anyone specifically as much as it is to the board in general.

People have fought that Kevin Minter was a good player, and it has been proven he isn't at this point.

People have fought that Stanton should keep the starting spot over Carson Palmer because he was better, and it has been proven he isn't.

Now people are fighting that Cooper's play isn't bad right now, which is being proven to be inaccurate. His play is bad right now. I have provided proof in this thread to that fact. It doesn't mean that it can't get better. It just means he didn't use his time to prepare correctly, and hit the ground running like he needed to ala Alex Okafor.

If you ask a question and then put your hands over your ears, yelling LALALALALALALA, I can't help you. If you want to create reasons why a player isn't playing to his draft status or ability, I can't help you. If you want to make the end result more important the the steps taken to get there, I can't help you.

cooper is a work in progress,at now he is not playing like a top 10 pick,but certainly he is not playing as bad as both of u mentioned
the truth stay in the middle,he just need to play to get better,adjust his play to the speed of a nfl games for a young lineman is not an easy process,just few emerge during their rookie season,and cooper is a rookie too

 

[Chopper0080]

cooper is a work on progress,at now he is not playing like a top 10 pick,but certainly he is not playing as bad as both of u mentioned
the truth stay in the middle,he just need to play to get better,adjust his play to the speed of a nfl games for a young lineman is not an easy process,just few emerge during their rookie season,and cooper is a rookie too

This is what I am talking about.

So answer this, what is the difference between the situations regarding Okafor and Cooper? Both were rookies last year. Both were injured in preseason. Both started off this season not playing due to recovery. Why is one thriving and one not?

I know the answer, do you?

 

[Krangodnzr]

I have to agree with Kerouac and Chopper here. Cooper hasn't been very well and is a disappointment up until this point.

I think he will get better with experience; generally you'll see talented players that have great potential suck for half a season and they have their "come to Jesus" game and from there on out they get better.

What worries me is what Kerouac is saying: Cooper is showing problems that he could've worked on, even with the injuries. I think we have to question his work ethic a bit based on what he is showing on the field.

 

[TJ]

And why is this? Because one poster identified a player who played a poor game, and individuals challenged that assertion by claiming that is was inaccurate, and due to personal bias. That assertion was then backed up with facts. Those facts were then dismissed as incomplete, and then invalid due to others claiming they didn't see it that way. Because of that, specific instances were pointed out. Now those facts are being dismissed due to a player being treated like he has less experience as a professional football player than he actually does because he hasn't played in games.



I have no problem with people stating their opinions or challenging other people's opinions, but if you are going to do so, be ready to come with facts rather than uninformed opinions.

I have. My point has been that I didn't see as many instances of missed technique and bad footwork at this point, I'm rolling my eyes at how intense (and somewhat overreactive) the analysis of him has been. Additionally, if we were to chart a guy like Larsen, Sendlein, etc., both of whom have been somewhat frowned upon on this board, we might see similar instances of technique mishaps.

Where you and I agree is that he has work to do to be a great o-lineman; where we disagree is how he is going to get there and where he is currently.

Despite us having different opinions about his technique, I do appreciate you taking the time to evaluate his play, and appreciate the conversation.

 

[Chopper0080]

I have to agree with Kerouac and Chopper here. Cooper hasn't been very well and is a disappointment up until this point.

I think he will get better with experience; generally you'll see talented players that have great potential suck for half a season and they have their "come to Jesus" game and from there on out they get better.

What worries me is what Kerouac is saying: Cooper is showing problems that he could've worked on, even with the injuries. I think we have to question his work ethic a bit based on what he is showing on the field.

That is the issue, and the heart of his struggles right now. He didn't prepare and work like he needed to which is showing in the lack of technique in his game. He is stepping with the wrong foot. Lunging to blocks. Opening rush lanes with poor mechanics. Getting spun around due to playing off balance. All of those are things you work on in practice, and in the offseason. Okafor did, which is why he is successful despite having all of the same excuses as Cooper. The difference is Okafor knew he needed to keep his job, while Cooper has the comfort that he was a first round pick and the team is financially commited to him.

 

[Chopper0080]

I have. My point has been that I didn't see as many instances of missed technique and bad footwork at this point, I'm rolling my eyes at how intense (and somewhat overreactive) the analysis of him has been. Additionally, if we were to chart a guy like Larsen, Sendlein, etc., both of whom have been somewhat frowned upon on this board, we might see similar instances of technique mishaps.

Where you and I agree is that he has work to do to be a great o-lineman; where we disagree is how he is going to get there and where he is currently.

Despite us having different opinions about his technique, I do appreciate you taking the time to evaluate his play, and appreciate the conversation.

Larsen and Sendlein fail getting beat due to physical limitations not technical ones. When watching the Rams game, our line looked like this.

LOS -------------------------------------------

- | - - -

That is the shoudler position of the line in relation to the LOS. Cooper is the one that looks different. Not every play, but significantly more than any other lineman.

 

[juza76]

This is what I am talking about.

So answer this, what is the difference between the situations regarding Okafor and Cooper? Both were rookies last year. Both were injured in preseason. Both started off this season not playing due to recovery. Why is one thriving and one not?

I know the answer, do you?

cause being an offensive lineman is more difficult expecially in the rookie season ,the mistakes u make are sacks or qb hit,is like a goalkeeper in soccer

how many pass rushers are effective since their rookie season

lineman generally struggling

tyron smith one of the best player right now,had problems too in his first games

 

[kerouac9]

That is the issue, and the heart of his struggles right now. He didn't prepare and work like he needed to which is showing in the lack of technique in his game. He is stepping with the wrong foot. Lunging to blocks. Opening rush lanes with poor mechanics. Getting spun around due to playing off balance. All of those are things you work on in practice, and in the offseason. Okafor did, which is why he is successful despite having all of the same excuses as Cooper. The difference is Okafor knew he needed to keep his job, while Cooper has the comfort that he was a first round pick and the team is financially commited to him.

It's worth noting that it's likely that Cooper showed up to camp out of shape, whether overweight or just under-conditioned, and that likely lead to his training camp demotion.

Two data points.

 

[BigRedRage]

i cant believe you guys haven't grown bored of this argument over the last 3 pages.

 

[Chopper0080]

i cant believe you guys haven't grown bored of this argument over the last 3 pages.

I can't believe you were so bored you posted this. Post padder

 

[BigRedRage]

I can't believe you were so bored you posted this. Post padder

yeah its slow today and this damn thread keeps refreshing with "cooper will be awesome!" "no he wont" "cooper is awesome already" "you dont know football" "COOPER COOPER COOPER"

"more like Pooper"

 

[Chopper0080]

cause being an offensive lineman is more difficult expecially in the rookie season ,the mistakes u make are sacks or qb hit,is like a goalkeeper in soccer

how many pass rushers are effective since their rookie season

lineman generally struggling

tyron smith one of the best player right now,had problems too in his first games

Just to make sure, you are claiming it is harder to play OG in the NFL coming from playing OG in college than it is to play OLB in the NFL coming from playing DE in college? It is tougher playing vs players your size rather than changing positions and playing against linemen 30 lbs heavier than you? It is harder to adjust as a 1st round player than it is as a 4th round player?

Seriously?

 

[Chopper0080]

yeah its slow today and this damn thread keeps refreshing with "cooper will be awesome!" "no he wont" "cooper is awesome already" "you dont know football" "COOPER COOPER COOPER"

"more like Pooper"

Good stuff. I should just be able to drop it, but I think my frustration stems from past threads and it is getting channelled here. I just get frustrated by all of the excuses that are made up for players. Bad is bad. Just say "I don't want to hear facts, and I would rather have an uninformed opinion" and stop tying to be right.