D-Backs trying to trade Scherzer

[82CardsGrad]

IMO, we are nowhere close to being a contender which is why I'm so agianst this trade. Just my opinion

How are we "nowhere close"?? How far away are we from the Dodgers or Rockies?? What are we missing? And how would keeping Scherzer and not grabbing Jackson and Kennedy have closed the gap??

 

[Arizona's Finest]

How are we "nowhere close"?? How far away are we from the Dodgers or Rockies?? What are we missing? And how would keeping Scherzer and not grabbing Jackson and Kennedy have closed the gap??

Yeah I just dont agree with Devilfan on this one. With Webb healthy (and if we didn't think he was healthy then we shouldn't have given him the money so I am moving forward under that assumption) and Haren and Jackson now here, that has the making of a VERY good starting rotation.

I also think we have a much higher ceiling offensively now as Upton will get better and I expect better years from Jackson, Drew, and Montero for numerous reasons. Throw in Reynolds and one more vet bat and I think we are a strong contender for the division.

Dodgers are good but are counting on Billingsly and Kershaw to take the next step and thats no sure thing. And we can count on Manny being more like second hald Manny then post trade Manny as he is getting up there in age now.

I always think the Rockies suck and just overachieve. Doubt that happens again.

SF and SD are multiple player away.

I think its a bold move but I like it. Lets get a couple arms for the bully and another bat and get the season started already.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

AZ Finest is right

 

[82CardsGrad]

Dude, you can be right or wrong... with that avatar it doesn't matter... Just post more!!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Dude, you can be right or wrong... with that avatar it doesn't matter... Just post more!!

Not too hijack the thread or anything but......

You must be registered for see images

And this one is probably a little too spicy for ASFN....but I'll include the link

http://lebrownstown.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/keeley-hazell-4.jpg

Anyway back to Max Scherzer......Bring on Edwin Jackson

 

[PoolBoy]

 

[82CardsGrad]

Not too hijack the thread or anything but......

You must be registered for see images

And this one is probably a little too spicy for ASFN....but I'll include the link

http://lebrownstown.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/keeley-hazell-4.jpg

Anyway back to Max Sherzer......Bring on Edwin Jackson

I didn't hear a word you said... can you post your comments one more time please?

 

[devilfan02]

Dude, you can be right or wrong... with that avatar it doesn't matter... Just post more!!

No one knows how Brandon Webb will bounce back from the most serious injury a pitcher can sustain. I don't expect Brandon Webb to be his usual self this season. In fact, I'm just hoping he can pitch a majority of the upcoming season.

Hole at 1B

Hole at 2B

Our bullpen is in shambles which is the most troubling considering workhorse Doug Davis is gone, Webb most likely won't be an innings eater, and now an unproven and injury prone starter (Kennedy) will be inserted in the rotation. To me that adds up to a lot of work for a bullpen that is already suspect.

Furthermore, 620am said Jackson's 2010 salary will eat up a majority of our spending money this season which will result in plenty of holes on our roster being poorly addressed.

I'm trying not to be a pessimist since FA is just underway but we don't have near the amount of money or prospects it will take to address our needs. To add on, I don't see any team trading for Snyder/Young/Byrnes which would free up some much needed money to spend elsewhere.

I just don't see it. IMO, Scherzer for Jackson is a lateral move who might be a little more of an upgrade next season. He won't push us over the top and definitely isn't smart long term. I'm not the type to be critical of trades like this which involve young talent/prospects for MLB ready players. I was all for the Haren trade even though it meant giving up Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson..... This trade is different though and I don't like it one bit

 

[AsUdUdE]

My gosh that is one good looking girl... WOWZA...

Back to the topic at hand...

I think the reality of this deal hinges one one's opinion about Schlereth more than anything... I think Jackson, a 2009 AL All-Star, will make about as good of a #3 starter as one could ask for for the Dbacks... According to his Wikipedia page as o the end of July he actually had the best BAA of ANY PITCHER IN THE AL at .216

that is impressive no matter WHO you are...

It also is awesome that he was originally drafted by the Dodgers.. hopefully he stics it to them 3-4 times in 2010 for giving up on him soo early!

Scherzer has potential, and maybe a slightly higher ceiling, but I would rather have as close to a sure thing now then to gamble on a slightly better prospect later... IE in poker would rather play pocket KKs than AK suited..

So to the original point, it comes down to if Schlereth.. if you grade him still as a first round prospect this deal doesn't make a lot of sense... if you grade him as a nice arm (I think he is 23-24) but a nice arm in the bullpen with limited control. then this is A VERY good trade for the Dbacks..

I personally think of Schlereth as the latter, and thus really like the trade for the Dbacks....

Webb/Haren/Jackson in 2010... OOUT-FREAKIN-STANDING!

 

[devilfan02]

I didn't hear a word you said... can you post your comments one more time please?

Is that Keeley Hazell? She's smokin hot... www.break.com has a bunch of videos of her doing modeling shoots that are unreal.

Time for a cold shower

 

[AsUdUdE]

No one knows how Brandon Webb will bounce back from the most serious injury a pitcher can sustain. I don't expect Brandon Webb to be his usual self this season. In fact, I'm just hoping he can pitch a majority of the upcoming season.

Hole at 1B

Hole at 2B

Our bullpen is in shambles which is the most troubling considering workhorse Doug Davis is gone, Webb most likely won't be an innings eater, and now an unproven and injury prone starter (Kennedy) will be inserted in the rotation. To me that adds up to a lot of work for a bullpen that is already suspect.

Furthermore, 620am said Jackson's 2010 salary will eat up a majority of our spending money this season which will result in plenty of holes on our roster being poorly addressed.

I'm trying not to be a pessimist since FA is just underway but we don't have near the amount of money or prospects it will take to address our needs. To add on, I don't see any team trading for Snyder/Young/Byrnes which would free up some much needed money to spend elsewhere.

I just don't see it. IMO, Scherzer for Jackson is a lateral move who might be a little more of an upgrade next season. He won't push us over the top and definitely isn't smart long term. I'm not the type to be critical of trades like this which involve young talent/prospects for MLB ready players. I was all for the Haren trade even though it meant giving up Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson..... This trade is different though and I don't like it one bit

I read that he made 2.2 million LAST YEAR.. how much could he possibly be making this year to eat up all of our F.A. money?

 

[82CardsGrad]

No one knows how Brandon Webb will bounce back from the most serious injury a pitcher can sustain. I don't expect Brandon Webb to be his usual self this season. In fact, I'm just hoping he can pitch a majority of the upcoming season.

Hole at 1B

Hole at 2B

Our bullpen is in shambles which is the most troubling considering workhorse Doug Davis is gone, Webb most likely won't be an innings eater, and now an unproven and injury prone starter (Kennedy) will be inserted in the rotation. To me that adds up to a lot of work for a bullpen that is already suspect.

Furthermore, 620am said Jackson's 2010 salary will eat up a majority of our spending money this season which will result in plenty of holes on our roster being poorly addressed.

I'm trying not to be a pessimist since FA is just underway but we don't have near the amount of money or prospects it will take to address our needs. To add on, I don't see any team trading for Snyder/Young/Byrnes which would free up some much needed money to spend elsewhere.

I just don't see it. IMO, Scherzer for Jackson is a lateral move who might be a little more of an upgrade next season. He won't push us over the top and definitely isn't smart long term. I'm not the type to be critical of trades like this which involve young talent/prospects for MLB ready players. I was all for the Haren trade even though it meant giving up Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson..... This trade is different though and I don't like it one bit

I think you're being way too pessimistic at this point in time... At First Base, we still don't know what Brandon Allen will become but clearly there is serious upside there and defensively he is roack solid. At second base, any one or all of the ********* of Roberts, Ojeda and Ryall could be more than adequate. As for the bullpen, getting rid of Schlereth - who sucked last year - does not put the pen in a "shambles". Qualls is a better than average closer. Gutierrez proved he can be a reliable set-up man. Zavada showed some promise and IMO, was way more effective than was Schlereth. And I have no doubt that Byrnes will make some more moves to add depth to the pen.

Again, it's not like we are competing in the AL East. I just don't see the rest of the NL West being that superior to us.

 

[devilfan02]

I read that he made 2.2 million LAST YEAR.. how much could he possibly be making this year to eat up all of our F.A. money?

They said he's arbitration eligible and should get a decent paycheck. If true, makes sense that it would eat up a majority of our available cash considering we only have around $14 million to spend this offseason.

Not sure what an All Star pitcher usually commands in arbitration but it's probably safe to say he'll get 50% or more of our available cash for this offseason.

Managing General Partner Ken Kendrick told us last month the team would increase payroll to the mid-to-high 70s, so let’s go with the midpoint -- $77 million -- which would leave the club with about $14 million to spend this off-season.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/NickPiecoro/t1257058800

 

[AsUdUdE]

According to multiple Detroit sources, Jackson in Arbitration will command a salary between 5-5.5 million in 2010...

 

[82CardsGrad]

I read that he made 2.2 million LAST YEAR.. how much could he possibly be making this year to eat up all of our F.A. money?

Here ya go per mlb.com:


The D-backs entered the Winter Meetings searching for a starter to slot behind Brandon Webb, Dan Haren and Scherzer in the rotation and about $10 million to spend. Their plan seemed to call for them to spend the bulk of that money either on a free-agent pitcher or taking part of a large pitcher's contract off another team's hands via trade.
If the deal is indeed structured as believed, it would allow the D-backs to spend their remaining dollars on shoring up the bullpen and bolstering their offense, which has underperformed the past few seasons. Kennedy missed much of last season after having surgery to repair an aneurysm under his right armpit on May 12. He pitched in four Minor League games for Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre last year and tossed a scoreless inning in his one appearance for the Yankees.


The right-hander pitched well in the Arizona Fall League and the D-backs appear to have favorable reports on him.
Jackson, 26, made $2.2 million last year and will be eligible for salary arbitration this winter for the second time, which could push his salary into the $5 million range. Jackson cannot be eligible for free agency until after the 2011 season. Jackson was 13-9 with a 3.62 ERA in 33 starts last season for the Tigers. A former GM described Jackson's makeup as "off the charts."

Kennedy, taken 10 picks after Scherzer in the 2006 Draft, burst upon the Yankees scene in late 2007, climbing from Class A through the Minors in a single season and making three impressive starts. That gave the Yankees belief that he could be a part of their starting rotation in 2008, but he went 0-4 with an 8.17 ERA in nine starts and one relief appearance.


Certainly doesn't sound like the crappy deal some here are trying to make it out to be. Infact, is sounds like a terrific deal!

 

[187]

I sure hope we get off to a great first half start, because the wheels will fall off Haren in the second half (like they do every year) and Edwin has shown the same tendencies the past two seasons. Post All-Star Break stats for the two last year:

Haren - 4.62 ERA, 1.26 WHIP
Edwin - 5.07 ERA, 1.53 WHIP

I am still not a fan of this trade at all. Instead of trading Max for a starter with a track record we're sending him and our "electric" potential closer of the future for a one hit wonder and a Yankees cast off. Say what you want about "at least Edwin has proven he can be a one year wonder", but the last time I checked that was Scherzer's first full season in the big leagues. Now go ahead and look at how many great starters have struggled some in their first 2 or 3 years? Edwin Jackson better feast on NL pitching and put together a complete season, because I would much rather see my team win compared to saying "I told you so". I think we could have gotten a better deal than what we did trading Max and Schlereth. I think this headline sums it up:

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[devilfan02]

I think you're being way too pessimistic at this point in time... At First Base, we still don't know what Brandon Allen will become but clearly there is serious upside there and defensively he is roack solid. At second base, any one or all of the ********* of Roberts, Ojeda and Ryall could be more than adequate. As for the bullpen, getting rid of Schlereth - who sucked last year - does not put the pen in a "shambles". Qualls is a better than average closer. Gutierrez proved he can be a reliable set-up man. Zavada showed some promise and IMO, was way more effective than was Schlereth. And I have no doubt that Byrnes will make some more moves to add depth to the pen.

Again, it's not like we are competing in the AL East. I just don't see the rest of the NL West being that superior to us.

This is where I respectfully disagree.

First off, I don't think our bullpen is in shambles because Schlereth is gone. In fact, in his case I think it's addition by subtraction. That's not an ASU biased opinion or a knock on Schlereth but he's just not ready to contribute in the big leagues and it showed in '09.

Second, I think Qualls is a very good 8th inning setup man but was below average as a closer. Zavada was not good and I wasn't all that impressed with Gutierrez either. These guys all seemed to pitch good when nothing was on the line yet crapped the bed when the games were close. We all know that a huge part of being a good reliever is having the moxy to come through in crucial situations and I don't see that with this bullpen. I just don't like the makeup of our bullpen at all and don't see where the huge improvement we need is going to take place.

As for 1B, everyone said this offseason that they want to find a 1B so Brandon Allen can start the season in Reno. That's not exactly a vote of confidence. Does he have promise, yes, but he's a major wild card in 2010 especially if he's going to see considerable playing time.

The NL West was one of the best divisions in baseball last year with two very good teams at the top. I'm not sure why you discount them so much... LA and CO are much better than us which sucks to say.

 

[187]

Don't sleep on San Francisco next year either.

 

[Lefty]

This from Keith Law at ESPN Insider:

I have no idea what Arizona's motivation for this deal is. Even with my longstanding concerns over Scherzer's delivery and on-and-off shoulder problems, I would rather have five years of his services than two years of Jackson's, since Jackson, despite the hot 2009 start and All-Star appearance, remains a back-end pitcher with No. 1 starter stuff -- but No. 5 starter command. He will light up the gun -- I saw him hit 99 twice in the 7th inning of a start in September of 2008 -- and he looks the part of a dominating staff ace, but he doesn't miss anywhere near enough bats with the fastball, which is pretty straight and which he tries to throw up in the zone too often. His 2009 first half was the anomaly, as his slider got worse as the season went on, and his second-half fade (.290/.356/.500 line for opponents, yielding a 5.07 ERA) was much more in line with his career norms and. He's also a flyball pitcher moving to a pretty good home run park, as is Ian Kennedy, a fringe 5th starter whose command is above-average but has to be plus (or better) for his fringe-fastball/average-changeup combination to work in the big leagues. (I liked Kennedy coming into 2008, but overrated his command.) Giving up five years of Scherzer and six of Schlereth is too much given what's coming back, especially for a club that's more in building mode than immediate contention.

 

[187]

^

That sums it up well. Stupid trade is stupid.

 

[Lefty]

^

That sums it up well. Stupid trade is stupid.

The trade has been made so we will just have to wait and see. I hope it works out and it doesn't turn into something like the Eric Byrnes signing.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

It's amazing how these "experts", such as Keith Law, are willing to flip-flop at the drop of a hat.

Not so long ago, Keith Law called Jackson the third best pitcher available this off-season, slightly behind Lackey and Halladay.

Now, the Diamondbacks add him to a rotation that already includes a Cy Young winner (who if healthy, is one of the best pitchers in baseball), and another in Dan Haren who would be a clear cut ace on about 90 percent of the teams in baseball.

Granted, I wasn't nuts about the idea of giving up two of their top pitching prospects for Jackson and Kennedy. I will say, Jackson is a very good #3 starter for this team, and if the last two seasons are any indication of what he's capable of doing, the Diamondbacks as a whole will benefit as a result.

Also, since the Diamondbacks are the "losers" of this deal, ask Detroit fans their views on it. They were as unhappy about losing Jackson as they were Granderson.

 

[82CardsGrad]

It's amazing how these "experts", such as Keith Law, are willing to flip-flop at the drop of a hat.

Not so long ago, Keith Law called Jackson the third best pitcher available this off-season, slightly behind Lackey and Halladay.

Now, the Diamondbacks add him to a rotation that already includes a Cy Young winner (who if healthy, is one of the best pitchers in baseball), and another in Dan Haren who would be a clear cut ace on about 90 percent of the teams in baseball.

Granted, I wasn't nuts about the idea of giving up two of their top pitching prospects for Jackson and Kennedy. I will say, Jackson is a very good #3 starter for this team, and if the last two seasons are any indication of what he's capable of doing, the Diamondbacks as a whole will benefit as a result.

Also, since the Diamondbacks are the "losers" of this deal, ask Detroit fans their views on it. They were as unhappy about losing Jackson as they were Granderson.

 

[overseascardfan]

Here's my piece, short term its a good deal but terrible in the long run. The success of this deal hinges on Kennedy's health but if he passes a physical then he should be okay. Looking at it from JB's point of view, he gets 2 SP's for a lot less money wise than the going rate, even if Jackson makes $5M in arbitration. Jackson is better than Scherzer now and JB needs to get fans interested now not in 5 years. Now Byrnes can get a couple of bats ( I like Adam Kennedy at 2B and either Xavier Nady or Hank Blalock at 1B on the cheap) with the rest of the dough an maybe a guy like Biemel to replace Schlereth as the lefty specialist.

Long term I think Scherzer and Schlereth become studs and they aren't eligible for FA for 5 - 6 years respectively. We will lose both Jackson and Kennedy, they are both Boras guys as someone mentioned and Arizona will balk at the asking price in a couple of years.

NY came out on top, they give up Kennedy (who wasn't going to start this year), Phil Coke (will be replaced by Chamberlain & Hughes) and Austin Jackson (Granderson helps them now) and can still go after either Lackey or Halladay (they still have prospects to offer TOR).

 

[hafey]

Interesting deal. 3 former first round picks and a guy that was once regarded as one of the best pitching prospects in baseball changing hands.

This deal really hinges on evaluation. Basically Byrnes is saying that after years in the system and because of injury/stamina/lack of 3rd pitch, Max will never become a top of the rotation starter. He is also saying that Jackson will continue his success despite a short track record, and perhaps most importantly they have evaluated Kennedy as a guy that is more than a fringe starter in the big leagues.

This is a deal that could swing massively in favor of the diamondbacks or massively against them in 3 years.