The Ben Patrick Lesson

Mitch

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The Cardinals dodged a major bullet last year when they waived TE Ben Patrick...so lucky that the Falcons didn't claim him right then, because they would have had him and his rights locked up for four years.

With this in mind...let me apply this to two bubble rookies and a potential third:

1. LB/DE Chris Harrington. Has been one of the best ST players in the pre-season games. Has shown very good tackling ability in the defense on the edge and at WILB, where he played some snaps last week. And, last week, he was in on two sacks.

Even Somers in his roster prediction today is waiving Harrington with the belief that he will clear waivers and be added to the PS.

IMO, if the Cardinals risk this, the Raiders will claim him.

2. LB Ali Highsmith. The Cards tried to hide him versus the Raiders. But...this LSU All-American who played big in big games, played big against none-other-than the New Orleans Saints of Louisiana (just making sure!). Highsmith and his six tackles weren't hidden in that game and he won't pass waivers because of it...because the Saints Will Come Marching In. And if not the Saints...look for the Giants.

Note: Somers believes there's a good chance Highsmith would be claimed off waivers, and thus has him in his 53.

3. S Dennis Keyes. While he certainly seems like a young player the Cards can waive and re-sign to the PS...my argument here is, he's just as good a ST player as Oliver Celestin and a far better fit in Pendy's defense.

Thus...I will be bitterly disappointed if any of these players is cut. And especially disappointed if we lose them.

So...who are the three players they would take the place of in final cuts?

1. LB Brandon Moore. I understand that Coach Davis likes him...but, he's signed to a one year deal, a la Keydrick Vincent, and could be long gone next year, while Harrington is locked up for three more somewhere else. Plus, Harrington has shown he's very good on STs which Moore was primarily signed for...thus this a no brainer. Don't forget too that Clark Haggans, Monty Beisel and Karlos Dansby are on one year contracts.

2. LB Matt Stewart. Highsmith has made several more impressive tackles than Stweart this pre-season any way. Stewart has been an arm tackler in the pre-season. He too is short term on this team. Highsmith has a chance to be a special player. Stewart is a serviceable backup.

3. S Oliver Celestin. Last year when Pendy tried to play this kid in the base defense when #24 was out, Celestin was ineffective, to say the least. Yes, he makes some ST tackles...which is great...don't get me wrong...we need all of those tackles we can get. BUT, watch Keyes tackle. He's a form tackler who packs a punch. He was the one who made a key open field tackle on a Raider punt return last week...and the week before he brought a 76 yard interception to the house at KC. There are reasons for this...this kid can play and he's even better right now that Celestin, regardless of Celestin being named ST Captain last week.
 
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abomb

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If Highsmith is cut, he is picked up by the first game...by another team.
 

CardsFan88

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Good takes, and I'd also be wary when we've seen teams actually picking up those that we cut. It means to me that teams are doing the job of watching us and identifying players we cut as good enough to be in the NFL. If they're taking guys from our first few waves of cuts, I'd be wary of trying to slip some players by this year. Plus because we've seen them take those players, coupled with the Patrick incident last year, we should be well aware and have no excuses if we lose talent through waiver claims.

If we try to scumbag the system this year by trying to stick NFL caliber prospects on the PS, we will probably be rewarded by being scumbag-ed by some team.

I say don't take the chance. Keep as much of the long term talent on the 53, and if any guy you feel might be even a little special later on this year, or next year, keep them on the team and don't risk it. The guys you mention imo are just that.

And Celestin last year imo was awful when playing defense
 
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Mitch

Mitch

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Good takes, and I'd also be wary when we've seen teams actually picking up those that we cut. It means to me that teams are doing the job of watching us and identifying players we cut as good enough to be in the NFL. If they're taking guys from our first few waves of cuts, I'd be wary of trying to slip some players by this year. Plus because we've seen them take those players, coupled with the Patrick incident last year, we should be well aware and have no excuses if we lose talent through waiver claims.

If we try to scumbag the system this year by trying to stick NFL caliber prospects on the PS, we will probably be rewarded by being scumbag-ed by some team.

I say don't take the chance. Keep as much of the long term talent on the 53, and if any guy you feel might be even a little special later on this year, or next year, keep them on the team and don't risk it. The guys you mention imo are just that.

And Celestin last year imo was awful when playing defense

Good points 88, and let's face it...teams know what other teams have good depth, and right now the Cardinals are, I guarantee you, considered by NFL GMs as having top 10 depth.
 

RonF

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What a great problem to have, so many good players that no matter who you cut, other teams are waiting to have a look see.
 
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Keyes is the type of player that always seems to show up at the right time and place, and it's not by accident. I would keep him over Celestin or Ware.

Re: Highsmith and Harrington it may come down to choosing one of the two. If that were the case which one would you keep on the squad of 53? :shrug:
 

HeavyB3

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Isn't it nice that we are in a position where we are worried about other teams picking up our roster cuts, instead of watching to see who we can pick up off the waiver wires?
 

TigToad

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What he said...

plus I don't know how to make the cool little emoticon of the guy with the sign. Pretend that is right here.



Isn't it nice that we are in a position where we are worried about other teams picking up our roster cuts, instead of watching to see who we can pick up off the waiver wires?
 

Savage58

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If the Cards depth is so great, hopefully the front office will find us a draft pick or 2 instead of outright waiving players. Although I am not expecting it.

Oh and who is Brandon Miller ? :p
 

Cbus cardsfan

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To me, it's alot to do about nothing. Those guys will have very little impact on any team they're on. All of them will be backup players/special teamers at best. While depth is nice,you can draft a Chris Harrington any year. Patrick is kind of a bad example to compare those guys to because he was a 2nd/3rd round talent that slid and has shown some ability. I'll bet there is no one outside of Texas who even knew who Harrington was. Highsmith has health issues and is undersized. Keyes, i really don't know alot about,but i'll compare him to Earnest Shazor who everybody thought was a PS gem that was never heard from again. Guys who can play rarely slip through the cracks in the NFL.
 
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Mitch

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To me, it's alot to do about nothing. Those guys will have very little impact on any team they're on. All of them will be backup players/special teamers at best. While depth is nice,you can draft a Chris Harrington any year. Patrick is kind of a bad example to compare those guys to because he was a 2nd/3rd round talent that slid and has shown some ability. I'll bet there is no one outside of Texas who even knew who Harrington was. Highsmith has health issues and is undersized. Keyes, i really don't know alot about,but i'll compare him to Earnest Shazor who everybody thought was a PS gem that was never heard from again. Guys who can play rarely slip through the cracks in the NFL.

This is a myopic and totally cynical assessment of these players and their potential.

First of all, what all three of these players have in common: they can flat-out tackle...and guess what...the Cardinals, as deep as they are, if they have any aspirations of becoming a Super Bowl contender, they had better start tackling people on a consistent basis. It should be an organization-wide requisite...and I contend to you and all other cynics, that Harrington, Highsmith and Keyes are better tacklers RIGHT NOW than Moore, Stewart and Celestin.

And good form tackling IS contagious...if the Cardinals are getting it on STs to start with it can carry over to the entire team.

And unlike your prognostication, I could very well see all three of these players starting at some point in the next three years.
 
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ajcardfan

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And unlike your prognostication, I could very well see all three of these players starting at some point in the next three years.

I'll try to watch Keyes tomorrow night. I haven't really seen what you've seen in him yet. I agree with you on Harrington and Highsmith however. Those kids just have a knack for being around the ball.
 

Totally_Red

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I'll try to watch Keyes tomorrow night. I haven't really seen what you've seen in him yet. I agree with you on Harrington and Highsmith however. Those kids just have a knack for being around the ball.

Same here. I don't want to lose either Harrington or Highsmith. Both show good promise and contribute on special teams. OTOH, Keyes is a luxury with the roster as tight as it is and with good safety depth in Francisco and Ware, and no contracts expiring. I'd chance Keyes passing waivers and put him on the practice squad for seasoning.

Moore and Stewart are guaranteed their full-year salaries if they are on the game 1 roster. It's possible neither will be picked up by another team.

I hope it doesn't happen, but an injury tonight could tip the balance. If either Harrington or Highsmith comes up lame tomorrow night, the Cardinals can I.R. them. I'm thinking Harrington backs up Laboy next season when Bert Berry is likely to be retired.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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and I contend to you and all other cynics, that Harrington, Highsmith and Keyes are better tacklers RIGHT NOW than Moore, Stewart and Celestin.

you're comparing them to 3 fringe players that may not make the roster.I contend that they are not better tacklers.Does that make me right?


And unlike your prognostication, I could very well see all three of these players starting at some point in the next three years.

I could just as easily see all of them out of football.If they are starting, it will be because of injury or our roster has been depleted to 2003 levels.
 

joeshmo

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The odds of a UDFA being selected off of waivers are so high I am not sure it should be to much of an issue. Putting a UDFA no team in the league thought that highly of in the first on their 53 man squad without knowing their system is very, very bad odds.

Same goes for players being plucked off of their PS. Out of 256 PS players a year on average only 3 to 4 or taken from another teams PS. First reason being the team usual brings back a current street FA that was with them in camp and preseason and knows their system before they bring in one that does not. Second it is sort of an unspoken rule that teams dont cherry pick others PS players, plus teams are afraid that the team they do it to will get back at them and do the same thing to them like the Pats did last year with PS and waiver wire issues. They purposely picked a player up becuase of that.

Not saying it cant happen. But I wouldnt even put $5 on those odds. Especially when we are talking about the players that would be ranked #50-#53 on our full team depth chart. I really like the prospects of all 3 and dont want to lose them but I wouldnt lose sleep over 3 guys who wouldnt even dress on Sundays sitting on the inactive roster.
 

Russ Smith

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I'll try to watch Keyes tomorrow night. I haven't really seen what you've seen in him yet. I agree with you on Harrington and Highsmith however. Those kids just have a knack for being around the ball.

I would be surprised if Keyes is ever an NFL starter, if he is not on a good defense. Dennis is a big hitter and he has a nose for the ball but he lacks the speed for FS and is a bit undersized for SS right now. At UCLA the knock on him was at times he was out of position, and he tended to go for the big hit instead of wrapping up. So far in ST I haven't seen that he's been wrapping up so maybe not being drafted got that point home to him.

ST guy and backup S is my take, I think he's had an excellent preseason and probably makes the team but I don't project him as ever starting he's just not fast enough.
 

bg7brd

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I would be surprised if Keyes is ever an NFL starter, if he is not on a good defense. Dennis is a big hitter and he has a nose for the ball but he lacks the speed for FS and is a bit undersized for SS right now. At UCLA the knock on him was at times he was out of position, and he tended to go for the big hit instead of wrapping up. So far in ST I haven't seen that he's been wrapping up so maybe not being drafted got that point home to him.

ST guy and backup S is my take, I think he's had an excellent preseason and probably makes the team but I don't project him as ever starting he's just not fast enough.

I think he needs a year on the PS to put on 10 to 15 lbs so we can groom him for SS. Unfortunately, AW won't be around for ever.
 

Russ Smith

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I think he needs a year on the PS to put on 10 to 15 lbs so we can groom him for SS. Unfortunately, AW won't be around for ever.

I can live with that I just don't think he'll ever be a starting S.
I googled nfldraftcountdown said Keyes ran a 4.62 40, that's at about 195 pounds if he bulks up for SS he'll probably slow down. I just don't think he's fast enough because he's one of those guys that will take gambles and get out of position and doesn't have the speed to recover.

he can really lay a lick on you just ask Rhett Bomar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8rD3i31ldQ
 

bg7brd

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I can live with that I just don't think he'll ever be a starting S.
I googled nfldraftcountdown said Keyes ran a 4.62 40, that's at about 195 pounds if he bulks up for SS he'll probably slow down. I just don't think he's fast enough because he's one of those guys that will take gambles and get out of position and doesn't have the speed to recover.

he can really lay a lick on you just ask Rhett Bomar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8rD3i31ldQ

Just curious.....what does AW run?
 

Crazy Canuck

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The odds of a UDFA being selected off of waivers are so high I am not sure it should be to much of an issue. Putting a UDFA no team in the league thought that highly of in the first on their 53 man squad without knowing their system is very, very bad odds.

Same goes for players being plucked off of their PS. Out of 256 PS players a year on average only 3 to 4 or taken from another teams PS. First reason being the team usual brings back a current street FA that was with them in camp and preseason and knows their system before they bring in one that does not. Second it is sort of an unspoken rule that teams dont cherry pick others PS players, plus teams are afraid that the team they do it to will get back at them and do the same thing to them like the Pats did last year with PS and waiver wire issues. They purposely picked a player up becuase of that.

Not saying it cant happen. But I wouldnt even put $5 on those odds. Especially when we are talking about the players that would be ranked #50-#53 on our full team depth chart. I really like the prospects of all 3 and dont want to lose them but I wouldnt lose sleep over 3 guys who wouldnt even dress on Sundays sitting on the inactive roster.


Agree and you get the Hat Trick: :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 

Russ Smith

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Just curious.....what does AW run?

Don't know he was faster than that when we drafted him but I expect he's lost a step as he bulked up.

I don't think you can use Keyes the way we use Adrian though he's much smaller can't make the same impact at the LOS.

He had a great senior year at UCLA but otherwise was an enigma, after his freshman year people thought he'd be really good but he wasn't consistent until his senior year.
 

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