Why will Murray fail?

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Lamar Jackson better statistical season? That never happened.

Flash in the pan means sudden success that will not be repeated. How do you know that? He only started one year so you dont know whether he would have replicated that. Pretty good chance he would have.

Agree. Can’t use flash in the pan until he fails to replicate that performance. Until then his performance speaks for who and what he is. Could he be a flash in the pan? Yes. But he’s not that yet (and hopefully never will be).

 

[BW52]

1st bolded - yet he didn't win the award for the best college player in the nation in his final year. Another QB, RGIII, did. Can you explain that?

2nd bolded - you say he hasn't exhibited these Solar7. Based on what, that Murray is a poor interview? The fact is you know zero about Murray's leadership ability. And "Intangibles" are overrated. Mental approach is important, very important. But the recycle bin of QBs is full of guys who were "100% committed to the game" and had great "football intelligence".

3rd bolded - ignorance at best, or disingenuous at worst. The former if you've haven't educated yourself by watching Murray's tape. But I think it's the later, and that's a shame.

4th bolded - a complete fabrication. Jackson yards from scrimmage in heisman year = 5100 Jackson total TDs in heisman year = 51. Murray yards from scrimmage in heisman year = 5400 Murray total TDs = 54. Plus Murray was way, way more efficient than Jackson, against a little better competition.

You really disappoint me man. I thought you were cool, but you became so emotionally invested in the draft, that now you would burn the Cardinals down to prove that you were "right". You're spewing venom like a viper, and turned yourself into an embarrassing spectacle.

You're hate Murray more than you love the Cardinals.

That's BS CW saying someone hates Murray more than they love the Cards.Because doubting how Murrays game translates to the NFl makes one a "hater"?Questioning his intangibles,work ethic etc; makes one a hater?
Murray had more draftees on his team alone alone than Jackson had in 3 years.Murray had many more offensive choices,better supporting cast and I question the part about playing better competition.Jackson was the offense at Louisville.He was it.Murray was a better passer than Jackson in college.But Jackson played behind horrible offensive lines and was running for his life nearly every play.

This nonsense about being in the Murray fan club or you are a "hater" is pure BS.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I've mentioned his on the field play plenty of times. His receivers were absolute studs who were 5 yards off the defender on every throw. His offensive line was chock full of NFL talent, so he rarely got touched, and mostly had a clean pocket. I question his ability to throw into tight windows. Not to mention football character concerns.

Those things still aren't knocks on him and aren't negative traits that he has displayed on the field. It is not his fault that he played on a talented team and it maybe reason to question what will happen when he isn't playing with so much talent, but I don't see why it's a reason to hate the pick and believe he will fail. I mean Baker played with that same talent and put up almost identical passing numbers to Murray and he looks quite good in the NFL.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You really disappoint me man. I thought you were cool, but you became so emotionally invested in the draft, that now you would burn the Cardinals down to prove that you were "right". You're spewing venom like a viper, and turned yourself into an embarrassing spectacle.

You're hate Murray more than you love the Cardinals.

Man I think you just went way over the line.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It’s impossible and unlikely to say that Murray would have repeated what many are saying is the best season of a college quarterback ever.

If he had, he’d unquestionably be the top prospect in the 2020 draft. But the reasonable expectation is that he’d still be good but there would be some regression.

A) you’re argument is based completely in conjecture.

B) even with some regression it wouldn’t mean he’s not a flash in the pan.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Man I think you just went way over the line.

It's not malicious. i respect Solar7's intelligence and passion for football.

But read all of his posts since the draft, starting with the classic "I'm out" thread. I might be wrong about his attitude, but I don't think I am.

Solar7, and everyone, if I offended I apologize.

Solar7, I am, however, waiting for the moment when you realize Murray now represents the Cardinals. For better or worse, he's our guy.

Can you at least give him a chance?

 

[HGC]

Getting brutal in here. Settle down gentlemen we all want the same thing at the end of the day.

 

[slanidrac16]

Getting brutal in here. Settle down gentlemen we all want the same thing at the end of the day.

Lol! Thank god we’re not in a bar with a couple of beers in us.

 

[kerouac9]

But a flash in the pan?

That I agree with. You can only call someone a "flash in the pan" if that moment of brilliance fades over time. You can ask "Is he a one-year wonder? We'll never know!" That's a fair question. But you can't say that he never would have approached that feat again.

Agree. Can’t use flash in the pan until he fails to replicate that performance. Until then his performance speaks for who and what he is. Could he be a flash in the pan? Yes. But he’s not that yet (and hopefully never will be).

We agree!

A) you’re argument is based completely in conjecture.

B) even with some regression it wouldn’t mean he’s not a flash in the pan.

1) But Krang's assertion that Murray would have repeated (or exceeded!) his historic 2018 season if he'd stayed in school wouldn't?

2) I agree. Even slight regression would have resolved the risk questions about Murray.

Let's look quickly at Matt Barkley's career at Southern Cal: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/matt-barkley-1.html

Nearly 70% completion percentage 39 TDs, 7 INTs as a junior.
Senior season, higher YPA but fewer TDs and twice as many INTs.

Barkley would likely have been the #1 overall pick had he come out as a Jr. Instead he was drafted in the 4th round. Was Barkley a flash in the pan, or did an additional sample size reveal the player he truly was?

 

[MadCardDisease]

Odds are Murray fails and that is not an attack on Murray as a QB.

Nearly two thirds of all first round QBs fail. The NFL is a cruel place for young QBs.

Murray is a unique talent. He is an incredibly gifted athlete. However by NFL standards he is incredibly small for the position.

Murray is coming into a situation where he will be the starter from day one and will be forced to learn on the fly. His head coach has no NFL coaching experience and is installing an offense that hasn't been used in the NFL before. Plus there are questions on the OL and WR positions that have yet to be answered for the Cardinals.

How much time will Cardinals Management give to the Murray / KK experiment?

All of these things are stacked against Murray.

With that said I'm excited to see how it all plays out and am pulling for Murray to be incredibly successful!

 

[kerouac9]

Odds are Murray fails and that is not an attack on Murray as a QB.

Nearly two thirds of all first round QBs fail. The NFL is a cruel place for young QBs.

Murray is a unique talent. He is an incredibly gifted athlete. However by NFL standards he is incredibly small for the position.

Murray is coming into a situation where he will be the starter from day one and will be forced to learn on the fly. His head coach has no NFL coaching experience and is installing an offense that hasn't been used in the NFL before. Plus there are questions on the OL and WR positions that have yet to be answered for the Cardinals.

How much time will Cardinals Management give to the Murray / KK experiment?

All of these things are stacked against Murray.

With that said I'm excited to see how it all plays out and am pulling for Murray to be incredibly successful!

This is an extremely good take.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Odds are Murray fails and that is not an attack on Murray as a QB.

Nearly two thirds of all first round QBs fail. The NFL is a cruel place for young QBs.

Murray is a unique talent. He is an incredibly gifted athlete. However by NFL standards he is incredibly small for the position.

Murray is coming into a situation where he will be the starter from day one and will be forced to learn on the fly. His head coach has no NFL coaching experience and is installing an offense that hasn't been used in the NFL before. Plus there are questions on the OL and WR positions that have yet to be answered for the Cardinals.

How much time will Cardinals Management give to the Murray / KK experiment?

All of these things are stacked against Murray.

With that said I'm excited to see how it all plays out and am pulling for Murray to be incredibly successful!

I see a lot of that part of your post as a positive. KK will be running an offense that will have a ton of concepts that Murray is already familiar with running. That offense will be all about creating mismatches and 1 on 1 match-ups in the passing game and as long as the players execute properly I suspect it will work in the long run. My biggest question with KK is whether or not he will command the locker room in a way that a head coach needs to to run a winning team.

 

[Krangodnzr]

That is your opinion.Luck had 2 very good seasons and a okay freshman season.3 seasons of starting and 82 career TD passes against 22 interceptions and a 67% career completion percentage.713-1064 passes 9430 yds 162.8 rating.

That is not an opinion. Objective fact. More TDs, more yards, higher passer rating.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Heisman.com lists Lamar as having the second best season for a Heisman winner in terms of yards from scrimmage, only to Koy Detmer, and if I recall correctly from looking last night, scored more overall touchdowns. To me, that's statistically better.

You are quoting comments from the Heisman website like it means...what?

Murray was ALOT more efficient. Higher Completion %, Y/A, Rushing average. And the eyeball test fully demonstrated that Jackson was a great athlete, ho hum QB.

 

[Krangodnzr]

That I agree with. You can only call someone a "flash in the pan" if that moment of brilliance fades over time. You can ask "Is he a one-year wonder? We'll never know!" That's a fair question. But you can't say that he never would have approached that feat again.



We agree!



1) But Krang's assertion that Murray would have repeated (or exceeded!) his historic 2018 season if he'd stayed in school wouldn't?

Did I say exceed? It's hard to exceed one of the top three greatest QB performances going back 150 years.

2) I agree. Even slight regression would have resolved the risk questions about Murray.

I agree. This is the big questions about Murray.

Let's look quickly at Matt Barkley's career at Southern Cal: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/matt-barkley-1.html

Nearly 70% completion percentage 39 TDs, 7 INTs as a junior.
Senior season, higher YPA but fewer TDs and twice as many INTs.

Barkley would likely have been the #1 overall pick had he come out as a Jr. Instead he was drafted in the 4th round. Was Barkley a flash in the pan, or did an additional sample size reveal the player he truly was?

I guess my answer to this would be to compare relative success of prospects leaving USC vs. OU. Teams were very leary of Barkley and the lack of USC QB success in the pros. Outside of Carson Palmer, every USC QB wasn't good in the pros.

With Murray, you have a very recent comp in Baker Mayfield. Played in the same system, and yet Murray played better than Mayfield (and he has more physical gifts).

 

[Krangodnzr]

Odds are Murray fails and that is not an attack on Murray as a QB.

Nearly two thirds of all first round QBs fail. The NFL is a cruel place for young QBs.

Murray is a unique talent. He is an incredibly gifted athlete. However by NFL standards he is incredibly small for the position.

Murray is coming into a situation where he will be the starter from day one and will be forced to learn on the fly. His head coach has no NFL coaching experience and is installing an offense that hasn't been used in the NFL before. Plus there are questions on the OL and WR positions that have yet to be answered for the Cardinals.

How much time will Cardinals Management give to the Murray / KK experiment?

All of these things are stacked against Murray.

With that said I'm excited to see how it all plays out and am pulling for Murray to be incredibly successful!

I don't disagree with your opinion here, but I would add that Murray really has a chance to play fairly well immediately since he will play in an offense that has really similar concepts to what he played in at OU. The learning curve of learning an offense should be much smaller than a typical college QB.

 

[Chopper0080]

Or that kyler is a stronger arm, is light years faster, and as yet I’ve not heard of a penchant for partying. But yeah, totally the same.

You are changing the argument. Your question was based upon meaningful snaps in college when he has an uber talent advantage. My response is that his talent advantage as a college QB was the equivalent to Matt Leinart's. It is a problem for these QBs because when they get to the NFL, they no longer have that advantage and are not used to figuring out how to deal with it.

 

[Chopper0080]

His fantastic mechanics don't strike you as a perfectionist? That is literally what everyone has said about Murray. He is fanatically a perfectionist. Albert Breer knows Murray how? He spent how much time with him?

Crapping the bed when he was under total siege against Alabama? Did you watch the game? Alabama came at him hard. Football isn't like basketball where one guy can totally carry a team. The OU team crapped the bed. Nick Saban outschemed and outcoached Lincoln Riley.

And you still go with the false narrative about A&M. At least be correct in your criticism. He was the starting QB when he transferred. The coaching staff jerked him and Kyle Allen around. Have you ever seen a situation where both starter AND backup transferred?

I have taught my son how to swing a baseball bat since he was 3. He has a very technically and mechanically solid baseball swing, and he is not in the least a perfectionist. You can refine your game because you have had good coaching, but that doesn't mean you approach everything with that same level of perfection. If Murray was a perfectionist, he would have handled his media obligations and pre draft process much better because he would have driven the process rather than relying on other people to do it for him.

 

[kerouac9]

With Murray, you have a very recent comp in Baker Mayfield. Played in the same system, and yet Murray played better than Mayfield (and he has more physical gifts).

It's hard for me to believe you're not being intentionally intellectually dishonest here. Baker Mayfield has started 13 games. He has a Total QBR of 55.7 and an average starter's DVOA if 14. Maybe Baker works out long term (I hope so; I have him and Mahomes on my dynasty team), but we're looking at an extremely limited sample size.

Now, let's check those OU QBs who have been drafted since 2001...

Murray
Mayfield
Landry Jones
Sam Bradford
Josh Heupel

Real list of all-pros there. Do you really want to look at the recent list of Air Raid QBs and how they've done in the NFL?

 

[Krangodnzr]

I have taught my son how to swing a baseball bat since he was 3. He has a very technically and mechanically solid baseball swing, and he is not in the least a perfectionist. You can refine your game because you have had good coaching, but that doesn't mean you approach everything with that same level of perfection. If Murray was a perfectionist, he would have handled his media obligations and pre draft process much better because he would have driven the process rather than relying on other people to do it for him.

His handling of the media and pre draft process have more to do with his personality than his play and perfection of his craft on the football field.

From everything I've seen, Murray is just a very shy person. He doesn't blow you away talking in front of cameras or over the radio. I don't see how that can translate to the football field where he is clearly in his element.

Marshawn Lynch was the exact same way. He obviously worked on the finer things of playing RB, but he HATED talking to the media. Not because he was a jerk, but because he didn't like the anxious feelings it caused.

 

[Chopper0080]

College super team? OU wouldn't even be second best team in the SEC.

Best offensive coach in college football.

6 of his fellow offensive players this year were drafted this year
4 linemen
1WR
1RB

The defense may have been trash, but the offense was next level.

 

[Krangodnzr]

It's hard for me to believe you're not being intentionally intellectually dishonest here. Baker Mayfield has started 13 games. He has a Total QBR of 55.7 and an average starter's DVOA if 14. Maybe Baker works out long term (I hope so; I have him and Mahomes on my dynasty team), but we're looking at an extremely limited sample size.

Now, let's check those OU QBs who have been drafted since 2001...

Murray
Mayfield
Landry Jones
Sam Bradford
Josh Heupel

Real list of all-pros there. Do you really want to look at the recent list of Air Raid QBs and how they've done in the NFL?

Played in different offenses.... Two played in the Air Raid.

You can build a list of Florida QBs and you'll see the same thing. USC had two good QBs come from there in the past two decades.

 

[Chopper0080]

Why do some people even follow this team if all they want to do is cry and counter every positive assertion??? Go find another team to whine about!

This thread is titled "Why will Murray fail?". Maybe you wandered into the wrong town when you were riding on that high horse of yours.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Best offensive coach in college football.

6 of his fellow offensive players this year were drafted this year
4 linemen
1WR
1RB

The defense may have been trash, but the offense was next level.

That OL didn't look too good against Alabama...It looked great against TCU!

 

[Chopper0080]

Heartsick bleating? LOL ok boss, I'd argue Team Murray is actually gloating and the rest of you are crying for the whambulance.

Google Texas A&M and Murray, which I dont think you have because like other anti-Murray people, I'm seeing a startling lack of research or informed insight.

You'll read how Sumlin jerked around all of his QBs there and didnt even tell which QB who was starting face to face.

Gone are the days of loyalty. College QBs have a very narrow window to play and build their stock for the draft and if you end up in a **** situation, you transfer. Dozens of guys do it every year.

So where as Murray getting jerked around and abandoning the team is cool, but then when Rosen gets jerked around you want to praise his the class he shows which is far different from Murray.

Which is it? Yes, Murray got jerked around, but instead of handling it with class, he took his ball and went to Oklahoma. He did what was best for him, and not what was best for the team.

Rosen gets put in a similar situation, and it is his fault that he didn't perform better? However, you still praise his class when the team trades him instead of demanding a trade.