Why I don't want Durant

Mainstreet

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I feel like I'm just along for the ride much like when the Suns drafted Josh Jackson in the 2017 draft.

All I can hope is the Suns are right on this one like they were when they traded for Chris Paul. That trade has already proven it's worth by two playoff appearances and a Finals run although I wouldn't have chosen this route. Maybe it will be the same if they trade for Kevin Durant.

I'd like to think bigger men could work out the differences between Ayton's camp and the Suns. If they trade Ayton for pennies on the dollar I'm going to be very disappointed. I'm not a fan of giving up on assets like they did with Jalen Smith.
 

Proximo

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I understand the sentiments of this thread, and share them to some degree.

But it's happening, to many signs to ignore.

We have to hope for the best.

What I will say is most of the players that will be moved in this trade did not perform adequately in the playoffs at all, so I am not sure I believe in their value anyway.

Crowder, Payne, Shamet, Craig - none of them did their job when it mattered.

I have long beleived we would not be keeping both Cam Johnson and Ayton due to the economics, so to me this deal is really mostly a picks and Ayton deal.

It certainly will box us in cap wise.

The thing is I do believe if the culture is still right, and Jones can do an ok job filling out the roster we will still have a shot. I think the main reason the Nets failed so badly the last couple seasons was the culture was really bad. Not surprising with Harden, Kyrie, and Simmons all being major distractions.

The Suns should not have those distractions.
 
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I'm optimistic that the temporary lull in Durant news means that the Suns will not succeed in trading for him.

I was also negative about the Paul trade. I thought he might be worth a couple of playoff series victories but that the Suns would find themselves in the doldrums when his contract was up -- which would have been right now, had the Suns not extended him. The Suns won four playoff series with Paul, not two, so my expectations have been surpassed, and it looks like I was wrong about the trade.

Except ... the Suns are acting like they are in the doldrums right now anyway. For the players we hoped would grow under Paul -- Booker, Ayton, Bridges, Johnson, and Smith -- it's a decidedly mixed record. Booker and Ayton have improved some, Bridges and Johnson have plateaued, and the Suns have already given up on Smith, possibly prematurely. Meanwhile, the consensus seems to be that the Suns are not a title contender as constructed.

Trading for Durant means doubling down on the Paul deal. Sacrifice even more of the future for one big roll of the dice. Yes, it might pay off, as it almost did in Paul's first year.

But how likely is that? Durant is still an elite offensive player when healthy. I'd put him in a small group of players who are basically unstoppable when they have things going, the others being Curry, Antetokounmpo, and maybe Doncic. Durant doesn't have a lot of good years left, but he should have at least a couple.

And yet, the reality is that Durant has never led a team to the Finals, or at least not in very many years. In his long tenure with the Thunder, where he had Westbrook and (briefly) Harden as teammates, he made the Western Conference Finals five times in seven years, but advanced only once, way back in 2012 -- a year in which Westbrook was second team All-NBA and Harden was Sixth Man of the Year. Since then, there has always been some excuse for why Durant's teams fell short.

Of course, he won two titles with the Warriors, and was arguably their best player during those runs. But that was a team that had already won a title and lost a Finals Game 7 in its previous two years, so Durant cannot claim in any way to have been a difference maker. And in fact, once Durant left, all the Warriors needed to win yet another title without him was to get Klay Thompson back semi-healthy.

Durant's tenure with the Nets has been an utter failure. In spite of the star-studded roster, not only have they won only a single playoff series during his three years with them, but they've been marked by profound dysfunction and under-achievement.

And have we all forgotten about what a PR disaster he is? Fake social media accounts, arguing with fans, pouting on the bench in his faux-gangsta hoodie, complaining about disrespect when he's one of the highest-paid players in the league.

As this board has already spent the last few days exploring, trading for Durant guts the Suns' depth and will leave them scrambling to fill the roster with minimum-salary cast-offs and, maybe, mid-level ring-chasers. How are the Suns going to assemble a team that's better than the various Nets squads that couldn't get off the ground? Meanwhile, we're potentially talking about the Suns not having a first-round pick of their own until Devin Booker retires.

Oh, did we forget about Durant's injury? He still played at an elite level last season (well, when he was on the court at all, that is), but the history of players coming back from Achilles ruptures isn't good. Are we expecting Durant to suddenly find courage and determination that he's never had before? Why, and how?

If the Suns stand pat, they give themselves the chance to prove that the Paul trade was correct. Keep Ayton, spend half a season smoothing things over, and hope that he continues his modest improvement. Make it clear to Bridges and Johnson that there are specific areas of their games that they have to improve. Figure out what went wrong with last year's chemistry, take it head-on, and correct it.

Is that likely to work? Not especially. But it has a better chance of working than the Durant rescue fantasy, which smacks of Shaquille O'Neal Part Two. And at least the Suns won't have thrown away their entire future.
I'm with you, good sir.

I also disagree with those who act as though they know "it's happening." I have no idea what the teams are doing behind closed doors, and neither does anyone else unless they work for the teams.
 

Proximo

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Comparing Durant to that Shaq is not even close.
You are a comparing a guy whose game was 90% his physical superiority, to one who is primarly a finesse player.

It is a really bad comparison.
 

Chaplin

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If anything, Shaq's numbers with us show how much superstars can still contribute well past their prime. Hell, for the most part CP3 shows that as well.
 
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Do many people dismiss the Nets' claim that they aren't interested in Ayton in the first place as lying? Nothing but a negotiating posture? My "problem" is that I don't, because I normally assume people mean what they say. If I'm right, there is a problem more fundamental than whether the Suns should get Kevin Durant: the Suns are trying to convince the Nets they should trade their best player for a player the Nets aren't interested in and didn't ask for, when the Nets didn't particularly want to lose Durant in the first place. This sounds inherently dubious.
 

Proximo

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Do many people dismiss the Nets' claim that they aren't interested in Ayton in the first place as lying? Nothing but a negotiating posture? My "problem" is that I don't, because I normally assume people mean what they say. If I'm right, there is a problem more fundamental than whether the Suns should get Kevin Durant: the Suns are trying to convince the Nets they should trade their best player for a player the Nets aren't interested in and didn't ask for, when the Nets didn't particularly want to lose Durant in the first place. This sounds inherently dubious.
No, I am pretty confident the Nets aren't interested in Ayton, all of their actions clearly demonstrate that. I follow actions not words, it's a much better way to sus out truth.

The deal is clearly going to be a 3 way with Utah, or some other team.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Nice write up E. The possibility of landing Durant is exciting, but it's important to think about the implications rationally. If the trade doesn't work out, it's back to the dark ages for another decade.
Without knowing what we give up I don’t get this. It’s possible we retain bridges or cam Johnson or both. If the trade doesn’t work we likely still have a young book, one or both of the young forwards and still have draft picks every other year (and before you say “but the pick swaps!” - the nets aren’t going to magically get better any time soon, so their picks likely will be higher or close to equivalent of ours, so we are likely to retain those years picks).

In addition, though books supermax contract is a big hit to cap room, the twins contracts will likely look reasonable with a new tv deal and we will have huge dollars opening up with Paul and Durant which makes us players in free agency with a guy like book who is proving to be a good recruiter.

I wouldn’t put a decades long nail in the coffin.
 
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Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I understand the sentiments of this thread, and share them to some degree.

But it's happening, to many signs to ignore.

We have to hope for the best.

What I will say is most of the players that will be moved in this trade did not perform adequately in the playoffs at all, so I am not sure I believe in their value anyway.

Crowder, Payne, Shamet, Craig - none of them did their job when it mattered.

I have long beleived we would not be keeping both Cam Johnson and Ayton due to the economics, so to me this deal is really mostly a picks and Ayton deal.

It certainly will box us in cap wise.

The thing is I do believe if the culture is still right, and Jones can do an ok job filling out the roster we will still have a shot. I think the main reason the Nets failed so badly the last couple seasons was the culture was really bad. Not surprising with Harden, Kyrie, and Simmons all being major distractions.

The Suns should not have those distractions.
Great perspective on cultures.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Do many people dismiss the Nets' claim that they aren't interested in Ayton in the first place as lying? Nothing but a negotiating posture? My "problem" is that I don't, because I normally assume people mean what they say. If I'm right, there is a problem more fundamental than whether the Suns should get Kevin Durant: the Suns are trying to convince the Nets they should trade their best player for a player the Nets aren't interested in and didn't ask for, when the Nets didn't particularly want to lose Durant in the first place. This sounds inherently dubious.
I think we’ve all pretty much figured out it will be a three team deal with Ayton headed to the jazz.
 

Mainstreet

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I think we’ve all pretty much figured out it will be a three team deal with Ayton headed to the jazz.

I want more than Bojan Bogdanovic or Jordan Clarkson and a couple of first round picks for Ayton.

Both could be gone after the 2022-23 season.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I want more than Bojan Bogdanovic or Jordan Clarkson and a couple of first round picks for Ayton.

Both could be gone after the 2022-23 season.
The picks would go to Durant trade. I think we retain the jazz player.
 

JCSunsfan

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I agree with Eric to a certain extent. If its just Ayton for Durant, I am not bothered by it as much, even though I doubt it will bring us a championship. Ayton has alienated the team. You cannot just quit on a team. The big question is how much more of the future would we have to give up for him. That is my biggest concern. We mortgage our entire future for a slim chance right now and then we end up like. . .well . . . the Nets.
 

Mainstreet

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The picks would go to Durant trade. I think we retain the jazz player.

I'm not excited about either Jazz player.

I'd probably choose Clarkson but since the Suns signed two guards it may be Bojan Bogdanović who is already 33.
 

Covert Rain

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No, I am pretty confident the Nets aren't interested in Ayton, all of their actions clearly demonstrate that. I follow actions not words, it's a much better way to sus out truth.

The deal is clearly going to be a 3 way with Utah, or some other team.
It can't be a 3 way with Utah. The combo of Simmons and Don's contract make it against NBA rules. That was shot down. Now if you see Simmons move or Don in a separate deal? Then it could happen but what is interesting is that Utah has said they are not interested in moving Don. Which means the Nets have to move Simmons first. If that happens then it could be on the table but it can't be right now.
 

Mainstreet

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Man both would be great additions. Particularly clarkson who can get hot and create his own shot. And bojan is an incredibly heady player.

Clarkson is more attractive to me because he can play some point guard. However, both could be rentals.
 

itlnsunsfan

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I don't know... did you miss Monty yelling that Ayton quit on the team in Game 7? And then basically him and JJ deciding Ayton was officially persona non grata?
Monty yelling at Ayton in game 7 is the equivalent of the Suns organization solely blaming Ayton for the playoff collapse? Where are you getting Monty and JJ decided Ayton was persona non grata?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Clarkson is more attractive to me because he can play some point guard. However, both could be rentals.
And that’s okay. You have to realize if we go durant the the timeline is different. You load up on guys that can get you the championship. Book and bridges/cam will be for the now and future. Everything else should, if possible, be geared to win now.
 

Mainstreet

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And that’s okay. You have to realize if we go durant the the timeline is different. You load up on guys that can get you the championship. Book and bridges/cam will be for the now and future. Everything else should, if possible, be geared to win now.

Hopefully the Suns will be able to keep both Bridges and Johnson. I may be in the minority but I like Ayton more than either player.
 

itlnsunsfan

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Without knowing what we give up I don’t get this. It’s possible we retain bridges or cam Johnson or both. If the trade doesn’t work we likely still have a young book, one or both of the young forwards and still have draft picks every other year (and before you say “but the pick swaps!” - the nets aren’t going to magically get better any time soon, so their picks likely will be higher or close to equivalent of ours, so we are likely to retain those years picks).

In addition, though books supermax contract is a big hit to cap room, the twins contracts will likely look reasonable with a new tv deal and we will have huge dollars opening up with Paul and Durant which makes us players in free agency with a guy like book who is proving to be a good recruiter.

I wouldn’t put a decades long nail in the coffin.
What's wrong with calling for rational decision making?

For me specifically, I'm concerned about a max asset trade. If you can get Durant for peanuts, rock n roll.

People are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

KD has 4 years on his contract, with maybe 2 years left of mvp caliber elite play (I'm not sure I agree with this but just to make the point).

How many more years of elite play does CP have? I'd say one, if that.

That means the Suns title window is one year.
If we can't win the title this year, how are we going to as the team becomes less talented?

So we're going to sell practically every asset we have for the better part of a decade on a title window of 1 year?

I discussed cap implications in length in a previous post, so I'll just sum up here. The Suns will have zero cap room until maybe when the new tv deal kicks in, in the 25'-26' season (and that's with a gutted roster). KD will be 37, in the final year of his deal. We still won't own any our first round picks for another 3 years.

If the above isn't enough to create pause, consider this. KD is....mercurial. He's not a good team leader. Who's to say he isn't going to want out again in 1 or 2 years? Except we won't be receiving a king's ransom in trade compensation at that point. We'll be receiving something along the lines of what we got for Chris Paul. In other words, this car's value drops like a rock as soon as we drive it off the lot.

This team spent a long time in darkness to finally have a bright future. We still have a bright future. I'm not opposed to all-in moves, but only on a good bet. On a bad bet, you're just tilting your money away.

For the type of trade compensation being discussed, any player could be obtained if they become available. Pass on this deal and use the assets to acquire a young star coming into his prime. That's what I would do.
 
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1tinsoldier

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i didn't follow enough of the Nets playoff games, but if my memory serves, i recall seeing Durant get punished in the 4th quarter of their elimination game -- ineffective with his one-on-one, neutralized, committing turnovers?
 

Joe Mama

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It can't be a 3 way with Utah. The combo of Simmons and Don's contract make it against NBA rules. That was shot down. Now if you see Simmons move or Don in a separate deal? Then it could happen but what is interesting is that Utah has said they are not interested in moving Don. Which means the Nets have to move Simmons first. If that happens then it could be on the table but it can't be right now.
I don't think it makes a lot of sense that Utah would be going after DA in a max sign and trade AND unloading mitchell. I have to believe they want those two pair together and so Utah's part in the deal would be draft picks and peripheral players. That said, if you could work out and from a basketball standpoint I think Simmons and DA could be an interesting combination.
Hopefully the Suns will be able to keep both Bridges and Johnson. I may be in the minority but I like Ayton more than either player.
I don't like DA more than either bridges or Johnson. I think he's probably the most frustrating player I've ever watched. But if we are talking about the size, skills, and potential that's needed to be great in the playoffs I don't think there's any question he is more valuable.

I also disagreed with the general sentiment around here that Chris Paul is done. He said some really crappy luck when it comes to being injured or sick or both in the playoffs and my own personal feeling is that he was a bit overwhelmed by it all happening again in may. I also believe getting a KD or just some other shot creator on this team would help extend his career. While I'm at it I think Cameron Payne is going to have very good 2022-23 season and I'm not terribly worried about the back up PG like a lot of people here.

To me this is about how the Phoenix Suns feel about Kevin Durant's health over the next few years and then of course what it will take to actually get him here.

Come on one other thing I seem to disagree with most people here about. I want crowder back if at all possible.

Joe
 

Proximo

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i didn't follow enough of the Nets playoff games, but if my memory serves, i recall seeing Durant get punished in the 4th quarter of their elimination game -- ineffective with his one-on-one, neutralized, committing turnovers?
Do you happen to remember how Booker played the last two games?

Sometimes that happens, especially when you have lost hope.
 

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