Waiting to trade Crowder

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I don't think Mikal is overrated. Having said that? Butler is a very good defender. Adding Butler's offense with his defense? It's a step-up IMO from a consistent scoring perspective. If it wasn't for Bulter being a good defender I would say hell no. However, he is. The Suns need to get deeper. I called this team not being deep enough after the offseason and we are seeing that is true. We have guys that in spot play show up but nothing consistent.

Not sure why Miami would make that trade but I would do it and I love Bridges.

Bottom line? It's becoming painfully obvious I think to everyone this team needs help, maybe not for the regular season grind but definitely for the playoffs. James Jones needs to get er done.
I think Miami does it if they believe this window is closed. Bridges and a first coincides with Bam and hero’s timelines better than does a 33 year old butler.

It’s butlers age that worries me. 33 is one thing for a supernova star like KD. It’s another thing for a 1b player. That said, butler would not only replace bridges defense, but I believe exceed it. He’s a better man-on defender than bridges but bridges is a superior team defender. Like, what butler did to book at the end of our last loss to Miami. There’s no way bridges accomplished that.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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What are you talking about? Yes I am fine with that. No question I am fine with that. Most people would be fine with that. Look no further than the D-backs. They won a title and sucked for years after. Even in retrospect....I WOULD NOT TRADE THAT TITLE FOR ANYTHING. I don't know anybody that would trade that title.

We are talking about not only a title for the Suns but their first title.

Would I prefer we don't such for years after a title? Sure. How is this even debatable?!?!?!?
This. All. Day. THIS
 

AzStevenCal

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I think you’re underestimating what KD is and trickle down effect his game and presence would mean to everyone else.
I think it just makes us Brooklyn West. I like Devin a lot more than I like Kyrie but other than availability, I don't see Booker as an upgrade over Irving at all. Claxton has been outplaying DA and there isn't much difference between the rest of our roster and theirs. It would still come down to CP3.
 

Mainstreet

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I think it just makes us Brooklyn West. I like Devin a lot more than I like Kyrie but other than availability, I don't see Booker as an upgrade over Irving at all. Claxton has been outplaying DA and there isn't much difference between the rest of our roster and theirs. It would still come down to CP3.

I'm torn.

Part of me wants to make changes to the rotation. I think a couple of roster moves could vastly improve the team.
The other part of me says the Suns are close and it might be worth pushing all the chips to the middle of the table and go for it with a major move.

I don't know where the Suns are mentally. This has me worried. Devin Booker needs another player to carry the team when he is off.

Sometimes one has to go for it on 4th down, realizing they might come up short if they are exiting their window of opportunity.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I think it just makes us Brooklyn West. I like Devin a lot more than I like Kyrie but other than availability, I don't see Booker as an upgrade over Irving at all. Claxton has been outplaying DA and there isn't much difference between the rest of our roster and theirs. It would still come down to CP3.
You think the only difference between the nets and suns is bridges and KD and that somehow that difference favors bridges? That’s the only way I can interpret your comment here.
 

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I think you’re underestimating what KD is and trickle down effect his game and presence would mean to everyone else.
The amount of pressure he takes off other players and the attention he would command on the court would impact every position on the court and can't be understated. We win a title if we get our hands on KD IMO.
 

AzStevenCal

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You think the only difference between the nets and suns is bridges and KD and that somehow that difference favors bridges? That’s the only way I can interpret your comment here.
How'd you get there? I've said, many times and in this conversation too, that a KD swap for Bridges is an upgrade for us. It's just not enough of an upgrade for me to feel good about our chances. I think if that swap happened, when all is said and done we'd be praising CP3 for bouncing back to star form and staying healthy or we'd come up short because CP3 either didn't have enough gas left or he was out for repairs at the worst time.

IOW, KD plus Booker doesn't win it all IMO even though it gives us a better chance than Booker plus Bridges.
 

Proximo

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What are you talking about? Yes I am fine with that. No question I am fine with that. Most people would be fine with that. Look no further than the D-backs. They won a title and sucked for years after. Even in retrospect....I WOULD NOT TRADE THAT TITLE FOR ANYTHING. I don't know anybody that would trade that title.

We are talking about not only a title for the Suns but their first title.

Would I prefer we don't such for years after a title? Sure. How is this even debatable?!?!?!?
Well I am not fine with that.

I guess that makes me an outlier.

I am fine with a big move that preserves a youngish core, I don't want to trade for an old guy who is only a mercenary to win a chip though unless we get him cheap.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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How'd you get there? I've said, many times and in this conversation too, that a KD swap for Bridges is an upgrade for us. It's just not enough of an upgrade for me to feel good about our chances. I think if that swap happened, when all is said and done we'd be praising CP3 for bouncing back to star form and staying healthy or we'd come up short because CP3 either didn't have enough gas left or he was out for repairs at the worst time.

IOW, KD plus Booker doesn't win it all IMO even though it gives us a better chance than Booker plus Bridges.
Transitive properties.

Kd here would be nets west.

Suns have been better than nets.

If suns become nets by swapping bridges for kd they become worse.

Hence bridges better than kd

Maybe overly simplistic, but that’s how o took your statement.
 

Mainstreet

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Well I am not fine with that.

I guess that makes me an outlier.

I am fine with a big move that preserves a youngish core, I don't want to trade for an old guy who is only a mercenary to win a chip though unless we get him cheap.

I suspect you are younger than some of us and have a bigger window for the Suns to win a championship.
 

AzStevenCal

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Transitive properties.

Kd here would be nets west.

Suns have been better than nets.

If suns become nets by swapping bridges for kd they become worse.

Hence bridges better than kd

Maybe overly simplistic, but that’s how o took your statement.
It's not overly simplistic, it's just wrong. Suns don't become worse by swapping those two players. The Suns have been a little better than Brooklyn but the Nets have been beset by even more problems than we have, by the end of the season I believe that Nets team (given reasonable health and player availability for both teams) will be around our level, maybe slightly better than our Suns team. If we swap KD and Bridges, we'll be improved and the Nets will take a step back. But neither version of that team or our team is a good bet to win it all IMO.
 

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What are you talking about? Yes I am fine with that. No question I am fine with that. Most people would be fine with that. Look no further than the D-backs. They won a title and sucked for years after. Even in retrospect....I WOULD NOT TRADE THAT TITLE FOR ANYTHING. I don't know anybody that would trade that title.

We are talking about not only a title for the Suns but their first title.

Would I prefer we don't such for years after a title? Sure. How is this even debatable?!?!?!?
yop yop.
 

Cheesebeef

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I think you’re underestimating what KD is and trickle down effect his game and presence would mean to everyone else.
KD is still one of the top 7 players in the game, playing at an MVP level. He would make us instant contenders, if not favorites. The team isn't really a true contender right now because it has a 1/2/3 punch of Booker/Ayton/Bridges (interchanging those guys) and Paul is now clearly a 4 or 5, along with Cam J if healthy. For the last two years we had Paul playing at an All-NBA Level, which gave us double superstars up top. Now we just have one and he's not the freak of nature superstars other contenders have.

The reality is that a true contender/favorite would need to shift ALL of our guys down a peg just like the last two years. CP3's complete dissolution is a killer because it takes away having those two elite players that is almost a bare necessity to winning a chip.

Getting KD and only having to give up Bridges, picks and salary gives us a look more like Unicorn #1, aka KD/Booker as the best #2 in the league/Ayton as a good enough #3/Cam Johnson and CP3 as interchanging 4 and 5. Then Payne, Lee, Biz, Craig off the bench. Which isn't great, but you could basically have either Booker or KD on the court at all times to round that out.

To further compare this to the Diamondbacks... right now, we're basically that 100 win team that lost to the Mets in the 1st round, with Randy Johnson as their only ace. They need a Schilling next to him... the way Schilling actually supplanted RJ as the D-backs ace, the same way KD would supplant Booker as the Suns. KD/Booker is right there with with any 1-2 punch in the league... maybe a hair below Boston simply because of how young both of those guys are.

the really sad reality is... KD isn't going anywhere and if he was, other teams might have better pieces to get him.
 

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the really sad reality is... KD isn't going anywhere and if he was, other teams might have better pieces to get him.

This is where I'm at right now. I don't think the Suns will be able to get Kevin Durant.

I keep trying in my mind to do a trade with the Wizards.

The Wizards have lots of pieces to mix and match as do the Suns.

Something like Crowder and Saric or Shamet and Saric (which could include a pick) for Kyle Kuzma and Monte Morris.

The Wizards have other players that might work as well.
 

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This is where I'm at right now. I don't think the Suns will be able to get Kevin Durant.

I keep trying in my mind to do a trade with the Wizards.

The Wizards have lots of pieces to mix and match as do the Suns.

Something like Crowder and Saric or Shamet and Saric (which could include a pick) for Kyle Kuzma and Monte Morris.

The Wizards have other players that might work as well.
I don’t know why the Wizards take our scraps for two contributors who are both younger and more productive than our guys.

That deal doesn’t move the needle.
 

Mainstreet

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I don’t know why the Wizards take our scraps for two contributors who are both younger and more productive than our guys.

That deal doesn’t move the needle.

Washington isn't going anywhere and they might be attracted to expiring contracts (less Shamet) and picks.

The Wizards have depth at power forward and Monte Morris is a point guard who can shoot.
 

Cheesebeef

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Washington isn't going anywhere and they might be attracted to expiring contracts (less Shamet) and picks.

The Wizards have depth at power forward and Monte Morris is a point guard who can shoot.
Shamet destroys that deal. Especially since Kuzma is already an expiring.
 

Mainstreet

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Shamet destroys that deal. Especially since Kuzma is already an expiring.

That's why I put "less Shamet" in parentheses. Kuzma does have a player option but my guess is he opts out.

The Wizards do have other forwards that might interest the Suns.
 

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I cannot say enough how little I think DeRozan would move the needle for us. Like... I think he'd provide literally nothing that we don't already have.

We need shooters. Boston is the best team in the league and they're the best team because they shoot lights out from 3.

We need shooters, we need more consistent shooting in the worst way and DeRozan is an absolute turd from three, trash from the outside. I wouldn't trade a ham sandwich for him.

Caruso would be more impactful for us than DeRozan.
We were top-7 in the 3pt% the last two years and top-5 this year. We need creators when things get slow and ugly in the playoffs. It’s clear you can’t count on Ayton to be that guy consistently and CP isn’t nailing those jumpers anymore. If the Suns continue to roll with Paul and his slow style of point guarding I think DeRozan would be a good fit in the half court offense. Booker/DDR isn’t Tatum/Brown but it’s a better top-2 than anyone else (of course Giannis + insert-name-here is probably the best).
 

Cheesebeef

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We were top-7 in the 3pt% the last two years and top-5 this year. We need creators when things get slow and ugly in the playoffs. It’s clear you can’t count on Ayton to be that guy consistently and CP isn’t nailing those jumpers anymore. If the Suns continue to roll with Paul and his slow style of point guarding I think DeRozan would be a good fit in the half court offense. Booker/DDR isn’t Tatum/Brown but it’s a better top-2 than anyone else (of course Giannis + insert-name-here is probably the best).
bingo. people continuing to bury their head in the sand at the lack of elite creators on this team confuses me to no end.
 

Mainstreet

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James Jones mentioned after last season the Suns needed more shooters and playmakers yet here we are in a situation made even worse without more help at power forward.
 

Finito

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James Jones mentioned after last season the Suns needed more shooters and playmakers yet here we are in a situation made even worse without more help at power forward.

James Jones also sat on his ass and did nothing
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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James Jones also sat on his ass and did nothing
Not true. He signed ASFN’s preseason savior, Landale (which I never understood). Signing Lee was a positive. But I agree it was a nothingburger of an offseason particularly when you consider he just sat back and then matched Ayton and failed to extend cam.
 

Mainstreet

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James Jones also sat on his ass and did nothing

The Suns are entering the tough part of their schedule. I'm not counting on them winning a lot of games unless they fix some of their obvious weaknesses.

Devin Booker may be getting worn down without someone else helping shoulder the load. If Chris Paul has anything left, they will need it.
 

Finito

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The Suns are entering the tough part of their schedule. I'm not counting on them winning a lot of games unless they fix some of their obvious weaknesses.

Devin Booker may be getting worn down without someone else helping shoulder the load. If Chris Paul has anything left, they will need it.

We all said it after the playoffs this was the most important offseason in recent memory and he did nothing

If Booker is worn down at the start of December that’s a big problem
 

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