Two year college rule.

thegrahamcrackr

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This is far more than just an age limit....

http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/58587

By JOHN LOMBARDO & ROSS NETHERY
Staff writers
Published April 07, 2008 : Page 01


[FONT=&quot]A groundbreaking five-year, $50 million deal between the NBA and NCAA not only includes ambitious goals for overhauling youth basketball, but also marks a new level in the relationship between two powerful organizations that, until a couple of years ago, had never sat down together.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The as-yet-unnamed joint venture between the NBA and NCAA, which was to be formally announced today at the Final Four in San Antonio, will develop programs to help assure that boys and girls get consistent, high-quality basketball training and education. The first visible sign of the new business will likely be a Web site launched for the 2008-09 season that will provide information and social networking for young players, teams, leagues and event organizers. Before that happens, though, the NCAA and the NBA will have to hire a chief executive and a staff, and figure out where to establish a headquarters. That may be influenced, NCAA President Myles Brand said, by which technology company they partner with on their Web presence.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Terms of the deal call for each side to commit up to $15 million in cash and another $20 million in joint marketing investment.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“This is a historic deal,” said Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski, who will coach the U.S. men’s Olympic team in Beijing this summer and who has been a longtime proponent of revamping youth basketball. “It’s going to make basketball in our country better. That’s the motivation. To help kids, but to make the game better.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]While most of the details have yet to be worked out, the joint venture will go far beyond just a Web presence. There are plans for an annual youth basketball congress, for coaching education and certification, for registering and training officials and for working with existing sanctioning organizations to establish national standards for competitive events.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Having the NBA and the NCAA involved in such a venture seemed unimaginable as recently as mid-2005, when George Raveling, a former college coach who is now Nike’s global director of basketball, decided to try to get everyone involved in youth basketball into one room. Raveling, motivated by what he saw as “slippage” in U.S. basketball in everything from on-court performance to coaching and officiating, convinced Nike to host a U.S. basketball summit.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“At that point,” Raveling said, “never in the history of basketball had the NBA and NCAA sat down together.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]There’s no clear answer as to why that was true, considering the shared interests of the two organizations in keeping U.S. basketball healthy and successful, nor is either side particularly to blame. But the opportunity to change the relationship, according to several people interviewed for this story, may have come when Brand took over as NCAA president in 2003.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“A change of leadership sometimes is a catalyst to other types of changes,” said one.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Brand had signaled his interest in focusing on the broad issues facing the game when, in the late spring of 2004, he organized a group called the College Basketball Partnership, which included coaches, administrators, media members and former players who were concerned about the direction of basketball in the U.S. Many of the members of that group, which met off-and-on for about two years, were among the 40 people who gathered for Nike’s summit in October 2005 at the Fairmont Chicago hotel. Along with Brand, Raveling and Krzyzewski, the list included Tom Jernstedt and Greg Shaheen of the NCAA, former Big East Commissioner Dave Gavitt, former Georgetown coach John Thompson Jr., Hall of Famer Jerry West, former Kentucky AD C.M. Newton and television commentators Billy Packer and Len Elmore. Adidas was invited to send a representative but decided not to.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Perhaps the most important attendee, though, was NBA Commissioner David Stern. When he first had the idea for the meeting, Raveling said he knew that it wouldn’t work without the NBA.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“The thing that was going to give authenticity to this was getting the NBA there,” he said. “If the NBA agreed to do this, then we were home free.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Considering the history, or lack thereof, between the NBA and NCAA, Raveling hired a professional arbitrator, a law professor from Duke, to help get the meeting rolling. That turned out to be a good idea, Krzyzewski said.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“We were all at tables sitting around in a square,” he said, “and you had your NBA group over there, and your NCAA group over there. … It was a little bit like a NATO meeting. You needed to break the ice and get to common ground.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The only thing that really happened at that meeting was that everyone agreed that more meetings were needed. But that was enough.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Krzyzewski remembers walking out of the meeting with Brand. Brand turned to him and said, “I don’t know if we did anything.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“You did the most important thing,” Krzyzewski said. “You know them, and they know you. Now we can start doing stuff. Now we can have more meetings, and we don’t need a facilitator.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]And, indeed, talks between the NBA and NCAA continued through the next summer and fall.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“It was never clear why we didn’t have a relationship, but what we learned is that our agendas are very similar, and that is to grow the game of basketball,” said NBA Deputy Commissioner Adam Silver. “For both business and basketball reasons, we needed to be brought together, and as everyone introduced each other, it became very clear how much everyone owed to the game.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]In September 2006, Brand and Stern co-hosted U.S. Basketball Summit II in Indianapolis. This time, both Nike and Adidas were there, as were representatives from the Amateur Athletic Union, the National Federation of High Schools, coaches’ organizations, as well as West and former North Carolina coach Dean Smith. In all, about 40 people.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]While the first meeting was the icebreaker, said Brand, at the second meeting, “the NBA and NCAA began to understand far better than in the past that we have a confluence of interests, that we are in the best position to try to change, in a dramatic way, pre-collegiate basketball.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Stern and Brand went public at that meeting with their intention to reform amateur basketball, which they believe is too heavily influenced by too many organizations with too many different goals.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“Early on we realized that we can’t solve this problem through regulation,” Brand said. “No rules the NCAA could pass would be able to solve the problem. We went to work with sharp pencils to figure out how we can create a marketplace solution.”[/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]There were more phone calls between Stern and Brand and the two discovered mutual interests and developed a friendship borne not only out of profession, but out of geography. Stern was born and raised in Manhattan, with Brand a Brooklyn native. The New York connection helped cement the personal relationship, but much of the day-to-day work was taken over by Silver and Shaheen, senior vice president of basketball and business strategies for the NCAA.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]There were differences in approach that slowed the process.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“The biggest challenge is that we had historically been so disparate,” Silver said. “We are taking advantage of the NCAA Championship game to announce the deal, but it is not an coincidence that it took until now. In addition to our differences, there were subgroups we had to deal with like university presidents and coaches associations. Then we had to make sure our business partners were on the same page.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Other groups, such as the shoe companies and the AAU, were involved early in the process and will be included in some way in the initiative, but they were not part of the planning talks between the NBA and the NCAA.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“We went to a couple of meetings,” said AAU President Bobby Dodd. “As we look forward, I hope all parties are included at the table. We look forward to lending our expertise.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The deal was progressing enough through last June when the NBA invited Shaheen and Jernstedt to the NBA Finals. In December 2007, Stern and Brand flew to Chicago and both addressed a FIBA meeting and then together took in a Bulls game at the United Center. With the talks gaining traction, Stern invited Brand to participate at the NBA Technology Summit at this year’s NBA All-Star Game in New Orleans. On March 24, Brand and Stern finally completed the deal during a meeting at the CBS Studios in New York where they taped their first-ever national television appearance.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“This is one of the most important moments in basketball in the past 20 years,” Silver said. “You can’t understate the significance of the constituent groups coming together for the purposes of improving basketball.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“This is a major breakthrough,” Brand said. “It’s a major breakthrough in our ability to address the most pressing problems in the game. But this will not be easy. Like any new initiative, you have to give it time to mature, and you have to be willing to change.”[/FONT]






[FONT=&quot]NBA/NCAA five point plan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The five-point plan and vision for the new NBA/NCAA partnership[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Online community: Launch for the 2008-09 season a Web site to provide information about youth basketball opportunities; allow social networking among high school players, teams, leagues and event organizers; and establish an annual youth basketball congress.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Educating athletes: Contribute to the social, educational and athletic development of young players through summer basketball camps and planned skills evaluation programs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Educating coaches: Develop a certification program that will include background checks, as well as providing clinics and developing a code of conduct.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Developing officials: Create a national registry of officials that can be used by area and regional organizations. There will also be a program designed to encourage former players to become youth basketball officials.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Events: Work with existing sanctioning organizations to establish national standards for events, and will maintain a national calendar of events.[/FONT]
 

dreamcastrocks

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money... should have known.
 

elindholm

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It makes sense. According to the pro side argument, all of these players drafted near the lottery shouldn't be drafted there anyway, because they could use college as a way to get better.

You lost me. I thought you were arguing that the low success rate of second-round draft choices indicates that college training is ineffective.

Again, if they are good enough to not need college, whats the point of forcing them to go?

I agree that that's an open question. I was addressing only the statistical analysis of success rates.
 

PDXChris

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Diop is a career backup player. I don't think that a year or two of college would have changed that.

I am not sure we can answer that, becuase he spent 3 years on the Cavs bench rotting instead of time in college getting minutes, working on his footwork and gaining confidence.
 

elindholm

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This is far more than just an age limit....

NBA/NCAA five point plan

I kind of doubt Stern will be able to push this through. It might be a good idea, but his credibility is shot. I suspect that there is broad distrust of him across the league now, and the players association is going to put their foot down on this one.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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I kind of doubt Stern will be able to push this through. It might be a good idea, but his credibility is shot. I suspect that there is broad distrust of him across the league now, and the players association is going to put their foot down on this one.

I think Stern is far too smart to make this kind of joint announcement without already knowing what the NBAPA was going to say/do about it.

Although re-reading the actual release and quotes - the age limit wasn't brought up so who knows
 

dreamcastrocks

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You lost me. I thought you were arguing that the low success rate of second-round draft choices indicates that college training is ineffective.



I agree that that's an open question. I was addressing only the statistical analysis of success rates.

He only decided to look at the top 20 players selected in his analysis. He is using selecting reasoning. Show the entire draft's %.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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money... should have known.


Of course it is dictated by money, it is a business and should be treated as such.

However, I think that it is only common sense to realize that the league wouldn't make a move unless they felt that it would create a better product - which also benefits the player.

You could also argue that a high school player could make more money by spending 2 years in college. Their marketability goes through the roof when they have a great college career.

Do you think Kevin Durant would have gotten 50 million from Nike if he didn't play like he did at Texas? Not a chance, and that single endorsement more than made up for losing 1 year of NBA salary.

It isn't going to be perfect, there are going to be players like LeBron (and Oden would have also fallen in) that could make a big impact in the NBA between the ages of 18-20.

Also, I am very interested to see the end of all these from high school careers. Did they take a year or two off the end of their primes because they put so many miles on their body early in their career? I don't think we will know the answer to that question for some time, but it still something to think about.
 

abomb

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I didnt RTFA, but there are rumors that the NBA will be giving something to the NBAPA. I wonder what it is.
 

elindholm

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He only decided to look at the top 20 players selected in his analysis. He is using selecting reasoning. Show the entire draft's %.

Well, I already explained how that skews the data the other way.

Think of it this way: What if the draft had four rounds instead of two? Virtually everyone taken in the third and fourth rounds would be a college player, so the overall percentage of college successes would go way down. How would that change what we understand about the value of college preparation? (Answer: It wouldn't.)
 

dreamcastrocks

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I didnt RTFA, but there are rumors that the NBA will be giving something to the NBAPA. I wonder what it is.

Drug testing? Changing the rookie scale? That's all I got.
 

abomb

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Drug testing? Changing the rookie scale? That's all I got.

I was thinking rookie scale also.

I would be interested to see how a survey of current NBA players comes out with respect the the 2-year waiting period.
 

dreamcastrocks

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I was thinking rookie scale also.

I would be interested to see how a survey of current NBA players comes out with respect the the 2-year waiting period.

I'm guessing that would be skewed too. With the majority of those that went to college 2+ years voting for it, and the others not.
 

hafey

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The fact that a higher percentage of HS players are successful NBA players is indisputable. The pro-age limit argument often hinges on the fact that players receive better development in college. I find it hard to believe with shorter seasons, limits on practice time and off-season practice time that players are better developed in college than the pros.

For me, the bigger issue is a right to work and make a living in the absence of concrete and compelling data that shows HS players are physically unready to compete as professionals as there is in football.

In the end, this is about money. By forcing players to stay 2 years in college, David Stern and the NBA get two free years of development and marketing. This has nothing to do with development of players and quality of the league as there is no evidence for that.
 

CardShark

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I don't know if the league can enforce that rule, but I do think that when a player accepts a scholarship to a school, that they are entering into a contract and should be required to complete the contract for however many years that they accepted it for.
 

Russ Smith

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I don't know if the league can enforce that rule, but I do think that when a player accepts a scholarship to a school, that they are entering into a contract and should be required to complete the contract for however many years that they accepted it for.

Well scholarships are 1 year at a time so at most they're accepting for one year. And that goes both ways it's a one year deal for both the kid and the school. Most honor them for 4 years(the school), not always though.
 

Chaplin

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And again, how can anyone ignore the fact that it took AT LEAST 2 years for those high school players to become the superstars you all are touting?

I'm not saying this is a good or bad idea, but to base your negativity against it by saying that Kobe Bryant is the best player isn't exactly relevant, because it took him several years to actually become that player. Would he have been worse if he went to college? Who knows? I don't think anyone can say that Kobe would not be as good had he gone to college for a couple years. Hell, he might have been better SOONER if he went to college first. You just don't know.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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You guys are completely missing the point of this. This is about the NCAA locking in more money than ever before. With one and done athletes and ones that skip college altogether, the NCAA loses out on any hype into the next season to watch a budding superstar. Colleges make insane amount of money off their sports programs, and locking athletes into a minimum of two years allows them to gain even more off the athletes. There is no doubt in my mind stern gets a huge kickback from this deal, as this move is counterproductive for his business.

Meanwhile, the NCAA would get people like Lebron, Kobe, stat, etc for two years of marketing orgies, along with players like Durant, Horford, and Bayless, rose, beasley who they can lock in for an additional year of fan gathering before they head off to the pros.

Then on the other hand, college athletes arent allowed to make a dime for themselves in college, and run the risk of getting injured without any payday hopes in their future if theyre forced to stay for two years. You force Kobe to play at UCLA for two years and he blows out his knee and never lands into the nba. But yeah, the rule is there for the kids...

It's wrong on so many levels.

If you think this is about nurturing a young athlete's talent then I have some prime real estate to sell you in the Florida swamplands.
 

Rab

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For selfish reasons, I don't mind it at all. It spices up the college game a little, and will keep players there for at least 2 years.

Even if it is a money ploy, I like watching these players in college, and I miss seeing the great ones after they bail after 1 year.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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They bail after a year because they are headed for greatness. Sometimes the dice rolls wrong for some of them, but to deny them the chance to even roll that dice, and instead roll a pair of dice you have planned out for them is wrong wrong wrong.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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They bail after a year because they are headed for greatness. Sometimes the dice rolls wrong for some of them, but to deny them the chance to even roll that dice, and instead roll a pair of dice you have planned out for them is wrong wrong wrong.


Why? The NBA isn't the US government. They are only responsible to their share holders and their employees. That would be owners and current NBA players, which this deal CLEARLY helps protect.

Nearly every high paying job won't hire a person unless they have a college degree. Does that mean that there aren't gifted people that could make an impact in a company without a degree? No, but it is a way for the businesses to protect themselves.

And by the NBA protecting its current players and the league, that will likely lead to us all enjoying a better product. It has nothing to do with whether or not a kid is capable of playing in the NBA, it has to do with whether it is in the best interest of the NBA for that kid to have a mandatory evaluation period before they are being hired.

The argument about a potential injury in college is bogus too if you ask me. It isn't the NBA's job to make sure that every kid with potential has a chance to show it. If I get hit by a car in my 3rd year of school and lose the ability to do a job I was hoping to do, would you complain that my personal choice of an employer (someone who has made zero commitment to me) didn't give me an opportunity before I got hurt? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Why should the NBA be looked at differently?

The millions of dollars that can be saved will hopefully be better used in order create a better balance in the NBA. People point out all the great players that were drafted out of high school, but if those drafts were redone - even 2 years later - I would guarantee every one of those guys would have been draft MUCH higher. Instead of the best players falling into the laps of teams in the middle of the pack, this would theoretically help steer top talent to the teams that need it most.

I'm sorry, but I feel it is complete ignorance to say it is "wrong, wrong, wrong". They aren't doing anything differently than any other company out there, yet they get chastised for making a smart business decision that actually will probably wind up taking care of their players (and themselves) in the long run.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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Im sorry, are we now comparing basketball athletes to the rest of America's work force?

I recant my previous 'wrong wrong wrong,' and not apply it to the above post.
 

AsUdUdE

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I kind of doubt Stern will be able to push this through. It might be a good idea, but his credibility is shot. I suspect that there is broad distrust of him across the league now, and the players association is going to put their foot down on this one.

I actually think it could be just the opposite...

I mean the Players association I think would be in favor of the move, because it gives Vets more time, and money to be in the league...

I think teams would like it because with this rule I honestly believe there will be FAR fewer "busts" because in 2 years of good competition, many NBA teams will get a better feel for players, and evaluation of players...

So basically the main problems I see wil be from the LeBrons of the world, and honestly, how many of them are there to make this not go through....

I also think this was the general plan from the begining, and Stern couldn't implement a 2 year college limit, until a 1 year had been in effect....

Ultimatly, I believe it will be passed by both sides...sooner rather than later
 

Cheesebeef

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In fact, nobody outside of Lebron came in and made an impact IMMEDIATELY after getting drafted.

Really? I find this to be a particularly peculiar statement coming from a Suns fan considering that one year previous to Bron, we had the 2nd worst record in the entire conference and drafted a high schooler who ended up being rookie of the year and a key piece to a playoff team. Are you really saying that Amare made no immediate impact on the Suns?
 

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