The Durant Sweepstakes

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

For sure, you watch 90s basketball and it's virtually a different sport. It's not like humanity suddenly evolved in half a generation, the play style and rules changed dramatically. Hip checking alone, basically legal by 90s rules, would completely disrupt 3pt shooting, the allowance for grabbing off the ball prevented guys from getting free looks. The illegality of zone defense disallowed off ball double teaming, the reason why big men were so dominant in the era, you couldn't screen them from receiving the ball in the paint.

It's really hard to compare one dominant team from another decade to another... but that Bulls team, they were a different animal, especially Jordan. If he played in today's league where no one could touch him on his way to the rim, that guy probably averages 40 a game. He's the best ever.

Agreed that Jordan would torch everyone.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Both teams were perfectly built for their time. In a physical league where guys can get away with constant grabbing and pushing the Bulls are the best. In the current freedom of movement era the Warriors of the past decade are the best. Certain players would absolutely thrive in either era (MJ would absolutely dominate, look at DeRozan for a poor man version of Jordan for example).

 

[Covert Rain]

Both teams were perfectly built for their time. In a physical league where guys can get away with constant grabbing and pushing the Bulls are the best. In the current freedom of movement era the Warriors of the past decade are the best. Certain players would absolutely thrive in either era (MJ would absolutely dominate, look at DeRozan for a poor man version of Jordan for example).

Without all the hand checking and the modern rules like clutching and grabbing off ball? He would have a field day. However, with pace to me being the biggest change in recent years? Teams had a hard time setting up defenses to stop Jordan in half court sets. My gosh. Can you imagine in this era of high possessions, fast shots and face pace what he would do? Teams would have even less time to setup defensively against him. Jordon would make everyone in the league today look silly in comparison.

 

[Hoop Head]

A lot of people try and discount Jordan's 3pt shooting but it was more than adequate. His percentage actually went up the more he'd shoot so I think he'd be fine in modern times. His best season saw him shoot 42.7% on 3.2 attempts a game. He shot 40% from 3 over the 2 year stretch where the Bulls won 70 games each season. That was just 3.4 attempts a game but he didn't need to shoot 3's because of how the game was played.

 

[95pro]

Agree. 90s rules bulls win a route. Current rules I think bulls struggle but could win. I say could struggle because as great as that bulls team was, it’s defense was predicated on the rules of the 90s. Physical play. Even pushing the envelope Rodman, Scottie, Jordan and Harper would threaten fouling out in todays nba. And without the ability to handcheck all of them would struggle with containing quicker players. Even Jordan. And todays defenses have become accustomed to just ignoring non-scorers like Harper and Rodman, leaving multiple defenders to hone in on Jordan and pippen.

That first part in bold really confuses me. Wouldn't this mean the Jordan and Pippen would also get to the rim easier? We've seen the bulls players get to the rim with handchecking and grabbing (fouls in todays game). Pippen/Jordan did make a few defensive team's. Rodman had quick feet as well.

I think the Warriors would get dunked on a lot imo. Pippen and Jordan were great defenders and also could finish fast breaks quickly and efficiently. Even iso ball they could get to the rim and dunk on someone. I wouldn't consider anyone but Klay and Green as great defender on the warriors. Steph would get eaten up by either Jordan or Pippen, KD's legs would be gone, Kukoc Pippen and Jordan were stronger. Klay has the size and had the quickness to defend either. Green is great at going straight up, but that's the thing with Pippen and Jordan, they knew how to go over or around someone.

Rodman wouldn't be ignored since he'd be hounding the glass. Then you'd have to deal with Kukoc too. Harper lost a step by that time in his career, i'd imagine his 3pt #'s would have gone up to maybe 33% to make him respectable.

Warriors did have a better cast though. McGee, Livingston, Iggy are some notable guys.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That first part in bold really confuses me. Wouldn't this mean the Jordan and Pippen would also get to the rim easier? We've seen the bulls players get to the rim with handchecking and grabbing (fouls in todays game). Pippen/Jordan did make a few defensive team's. Rodman had quick feet as well.

I think the Warriors would get dunked on a lot imo. Pippen and Jordan were great defenders and also could finish fast breaks quickly and efficiently. Even iso ball they could get to the rim and dunk on someone. I wouldn't consider anyone but Klay and Green as great defender on the warriors. Steph would get eaten up by either Jordan or Pippen, KD's legs would be gone, Kukoc Pippen and Jordan were stronger. Klay has the size and had the quickness to defend either. Green is great at going straight up, but that's the thing with Pippen and Jordan, they knew how to go over or around someone.

Rodman wouldn't be ignored since he'd be hounding the glass. Then you'd have to deal with Kukoc too. Harper lost a step by that time in his career, i'd imagine his 3pt #'s would have gone up to maybe 33% to make him respectable.

Warriors did have a better cast though. McGee, Livingston, Iggy are some notable guys.

I guess I wasn’t clear enough. I’m not saying Rodman, pippen, and Jordan would be bad, or even average, defenders. They would still be terrific defenders, maybe even still all-nba defenders. But they’d have a major tool in their defensive repertoire removed with the physical play and hand checking. It would make guarding a Durant and Steph much more difficult than what we’d expect having watched those bulls.

And absolutely Jordan and pippen could get to the hole a lot easier. But you’re wrong if you think teams wouldn’t lay off Rodman offensively - they’d sag into the paint making it more difficult for Scottie and Jordan to traipse to the hole at will. They’d do the same with longley and Harper - even if Harper pushed to 33% (no guarantee), no team is afraid of him at the 3 point line. And the warriors would hide steph defensively on Kerr or Harper.

Again, 90s rules I think the bulls absolutely mug the warriors. 2000s rules I think it’s a great series. Maybe tossup. Only X factor is Michael’s sheer will.

 

[Covert Rain]

I guess I wasn’t clear enough. I’m not saying Rodman, pippen, and Jordan would be bad, or even average, defenders. They would still be terrific defenders, maybe even still all-nba defenders. But they’d have a major tool in their defensive repertoire removed with the physical play and hand checking. It would make guarding a Durant and Steph much more difficult than what we’d expect having watched those bulls.

And absolutely Jordan and pippen could get to the hole a lot easier. But you’re wrong if you think teams wouldn’t lay off Rodman offensively - they’d sag into the paint making it more difficult for Scottie and Jordan to traipse to the hole at will. They’d do the same with longley and Harper - even if Harper pushed to 33% (no guarantee), no team is afraid of him at the 3 point line. And the warriors would hide steph defensively on Kerr or Harper.

Again, 90s rules I think the bulls absolutely mug the warriors. 2000s rules I think it’s a great series. Maybe tossup. Only X factor is Michael’s sheer will.

I agree with some of what you are saying but the new rules deemphasize defense now. It encourages more scoring. Jordan would be unstoppable IMO in this era. He used to have to deal with hand checks, people grabbing him off ball and no zone?! OMG now that there is zone? Even Golden State utilizes zone to cover up defensive deficiencies. Jordon would be like a shark in chummed water against zone defenses. All he needed was a step. He would find holes in the zone all day long. Also, Rodman would have a field day on the boards still. GS lives off of second chance points. Rodman would take away a ton of those. Golden State gets worked in any era. I am not saying they wouldn't win a couple games but they get worked IMO.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Finals between the Warriors and Celtics was the most physical Finals in recent memory.

I can't help but wonder if the NBA is headed this direction again.

Although fouls are readily called outside, players in the interior were often mugged without a call. We may see more of this. It's almost like the NBA is encouraging more 3-point shooting.

 

[sdscard4]

I just watched something on Jordan
He heard in the papers that Drexler was gonna be a tough match up for him. He told someone he was gonna hurt him
He goes out hits 5 3s in the first half ...which I believe was a finals record at the time and the Bulls won by like 40
That Blazers team was damn freaking good. Jordan scores like 50 every game in today's NBA. Green is on crack
Cmon man

 

[Mainstreet]

The trade talks between the Nets and Celtics for Kevin Durant may have occurred around July 16th per Zach Lowe of ESPN.

Nets Believed To Have Talked Trades With Celtics In Mid-July

Nets Believed To Have Talked Trades With Celtics In Mid-July - RealGM Wiretap

basketball.realgm.com

 

[Covert Rain]

The Finals between the Warriors and Celtics was the most physical Finals in recent memory.

I can't help but wonder if the NBA is headed this direction again.

Although fouls are readily called outside, players in the interior were often mugged without a call. We may see more of this. It's almost like the NBA is encouraging more 3-point shooting.

I doubt it. The tend to let players play a little bit more as the playoffs progress. It won't change anything in regular season sans rules changes. The playoffs always play different.

 

[Mainstreet]

I doubt it. The tend to let players play a little bit more as the playoffs progress. It won't change anything in regular season sans rules changes. The playoffs always play different.

Perhaps it doesn't change things during the regular season but it's something to watch for in the 2023 playoffs.

I was shocked at the amount of physical contact allowed inside during the Celtics-Warriors Finals. I don't recall it in recent history.

 

[95pro]

I agree with some of what you are saying but the new rules deemphasize defense now. It encourages more scoring. Jordan would be unstoppable IMO in this era. He used to have to deal with hand checks, people grabbing him off ball and no zone?! OMG now that there is zone? Even Golden State utilizes zone to cover up defensive deficiencies. Jordon would be like a shark in chummed water against zone defenses. All he needed was a step. He would find holes in the zone all day long. Also, Rodman would have a field day on the boards still. GS lives off of second chance points. Rodman would take away a ton of those. Golden State gets worked in any era. I am not saying they wouldn't win a couple games but they get worked IMO.

He was already unstoppable in that era, he just learned to share more with his teammates as he went on in his career.

GS would be dumb to ignore Rodman. His game was to hustle and grab boards, and the energy on energy he had.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

A lot of people try and discount Jordan's 3pt shooting but it was more than adequate. His percentage actually went up the more he'd shoot so I think he'd be fine in modern times. His best season saw him shoot 42.7% on 3.2 attempts a game. He shot 40% from 3 over the 2 year stretch where the Bulls won 70 games each season. That was just 3.4 attempts a game but he didn't need to shoot 3's because of how the game was played.

He is better than he gets credit for (his 3 point shot is at least on par with LeBron for instance), but the years he shot a really high percentage is when they shortened the three point line to 21 feet. He never shot that high of a percentage with a 24 foot 3 point line.

 

[Covert Rain]

Perhaps it doesn't change things during the regular season but it's something to watch for in the 2023 playoffs.

I was shocked at the amount of physical contact allowed inside during the Celtics-Warriors Finals. I don't recall it in recent history.

I see it every playoffs. Allowing more physical play isn't knew in the playoffs. Game 7 seems to be the most physical in every series. I doubt they would have decided to change the game after the regular season last year headed into the playoffs. We will see but the NBA has long postulated that offense sells tickets and ratings.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He was already unstoppable in that era, he just learned to share more with his teammates as he went on in his career.

GS would be dumb to ignore Rodman. His game was to hustle and grab boards, and the energy on energy he had.

If I said “ignore” I misspoke. What I meant was you don’t have to play up on Rodman, you can sag off him. Cheat into the paint. Doesn’t mean you don’t put a body on him when the ball goes up.

 

[Hoop Head]

He is better than he gets credit for (his 3 point shot is at least on par with LeBron for instance), but the years he shot a really high percentage is when they shortened the three point line to 21 feet. He never shot that high of a percentage with a 24 foot 3 point line.

I forgot they did that. He still stepped it up in the playoffs though, shooting 38.7% in the Bulls first 3 Peat, which had the regular 3pt line.

Had he needed a 3pt shot, he would have added one though. He would have worked to get his percentage up from outside had the league been as perimeter oriented.

The Bulls averaged 16.5 attempts from 3 a game back in the 95-96 season when they won 72 games and that was with the shorter line. They were 15th in the league at attempts as a team also, middle of the pack. For the sake of comparison, the Bulls averaged 28.8 3pt attempts last season which was lowest amount in the league.

 

[95pro]

If I said “ignore” I misspoke. What I meant was you don’t have to play up on Rodman, you can sag off him. Cheat into the paint. Doesn’t mean you don’t put a body on him when the ball goes up.

Offense was never his forte. He still got a ton of boards with a congested paint area, an era where it was more of an inside and midrange game.

He was also an underrated passer as well, something that's always overlooked.

 

[Mainstreet]

I see it every playoffs. Allowing more physical play isn't knew in the playoffs. Game 7 seems to be the most physical in every series. I doubt they would have decided to change the game after the regular season last year headed into the playoffs. We will see but the NBA has long postulated that offense sells tickets and ratings.

Apparently the NBA thinks 3-point shooting sells tickets because this is the way they are headed.

I didn't think the Suns-Bucks Final was this physical inside. The Suns weren't allowed to play physical with Giannis.

 

[Covert Rain]

Apparently the NBA thinks 3-point shooting sells tickets because this is the way they are headed.

I didn't think the Suns-Bucks Final was this physical inside. The Suns weren't allowed to play physical with Giannis.

I will buy that but it's also harder to hide a foul on a big man going to the hole than a guard doing the same. Ayton was an afterthought that year and didn't play "big" enough inside that series to draw likel fouls.

 

[Mainstreet]

I will buy that but it's also harder to hide a foul on a big man going to the hole than a guard doing the same. Ayton was an afterthought that year.

I thought Ayton was huge during that playoff series. The problem is the Suns didn't have much help when Saric went down to injury.

 

[Covert Rain]

I thought Ayton was huge during that playoff series. The problem is the Suns didn't have much help when Saric went down to injury.

I was referring to offense. He was not dunking and aggressive like Giannis in the paint.

 

[Mainstreet]

I was referring to offense. He was not dunking and aggressive like Giannis in the paint.

Giannis was allowed to do anything he wanted. The Suns weren't allowed to touch him.

 

[Chaplin]

I was referring to offense. He was not dunking and aggressive like Giannis in the paint.

That's not saying much. Nobody is dunking and as aggressive as Giannis in the paint. The problem, and it's something Ayton struggles with, is that he is incredibly inferior at that.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I forgot they did that. He still stepped it up in the playoffs though, shooting 38.7% in the Bulls first 3 Peat, which had the regular 3pt line.

Had he needed a 3pt shot, he would have added one though. He would have worked to get his percentage up from outside had the league been as perimeter oriented.

The Bulls averaged 16.5 attempts from 3 a game back in the 95-96 season when they won 72 games and that was with the shorter line. They were 15th in the league at attempts as a team also, middle of the pack. For the sake of comparison, the Bulls averaged 28.8 3pt attempts last season which was lowest amount in the league.

For sure. It’s also worth noting that there wasn’t even a 3 point line painted on the court when he played high school and college ball. He was a halfway decent three point shooter in an era that didn’t even care about taking 3s. He almost certainly would have been good if he wanted to be.