The Ayton Plan

[Covert Rain]

Go back and read the game day threads from the past two seasons and you'll see constant frustration over the fact that we tried to make him a pivotal part of the offense early in the game and it killed us. Once we stopped making it a priority early last season it made a huge difference. We'd feed Ayton a time or two and if he responded, we'd continue but if he wasn't focused we'd go away from him.

Go back and read the stats I posted before. The vast majority of his possessions are assisted verses plays run for him or him dribbling and creating his own shot. Amare posted up all the time. They ran iso for him all the time. Trying to go to him once in a blue moon is not remotely the same thing. This offense has never been designed around Ayton being a primary scorer like it was for Amare.

Like I said part of it is on Ayton’s lack of development on that side. We have all called it out that to get to the next level he has to be able to create his own shot like the great centers do. Nobody is denying that. I have said repeatedly that Ayton’s offensive game falls of a cliff without Paul in the playoffs and that he cannot depend on getting another great distributor to feed him easy shots after Paul is gone.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Go back and read the stats I posted before. The vast majority of his possessions are assisted verses plays run for him or him dribbling and creating his own shot. Amare posted up all the time. They ran iso for him all the time. Trying to go to him once in a blue moon is not remotely the same thing. This offense has never been designed around Ayton being a primary scorer like it was for Amare.

Like I said part of it is on Ayton’s lack of development on that side. We have all called it out that to get to the next level he has to be able to create his own shot like the great centers do. Nobody is denying that. I have said repeatedly that Ayton’s offensive game falls of a cliff without Paul in the playoffs and that he cannot depend on getting another great distributor to feed him easy shots after Paul is gone.

Well I don't disagree with this but he could still average 25 points per game even if he didn't develop that Amare jumper or a true post up game. He's so athletic and when he's focused he has good hands and nice touch. And when he's not focused he fumbles away passes and rebounds like I've never seen.

The word superstar gets overused but it truly could be in his near future if he just wanted it bad enough. Consistent effort, focus and aggression are all that's separating him from dominating this league. As it is though, on a nightly basis, I don't even think he's a top 10 center which should put him well out of max player range.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well I don't disagree with this but he could still average 25 points per game even if he didn't develop that Amare jumper or a true post up game. He's so athletic and when he's focused he has good hands and nice touch. And when he's not focused he fumbles away passes and rebounds like I've never seen.

The word superstar gets overused but it truly could be in his near future if he just wanted it bad enough. Consistent effort, focus and aggression are all that's separating him from dominating this league. As it is though, on a nightly basis, I don't even think he's a top 10 center which should put him well out of max player range.

I know people like to say it’s effort. I used to think that too but I have slowly changed my mind. I think it’s his mindset or head so to speak that stops him. I don’t think it’s lack of effort. Maybe I am splitting hairs but his lack of aggression to me seems to come from not believing he can do it verses him being lazy.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I know people like to say it’s effort. I used to think that too but I have slowly changed my mind. I think it’s his mindset or head so to speak that stops him. I don’t think it’s lack of effort. Maybe I am splitting hairs but his lack of aggression to me seems to come I don;tfrom not believing he can do it verses him being lazy.

I don't want to call him lazy because I'm not sure he is. But without a doubt he will play well and then just disappear for long stretches. Very long stretches. And then after the game he'll make comments that indicate he did his job and gave it his all. So I say effort, focus and aggression because that's the apparent effect of whatever is going on with him.

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't want to call him lazy because I'm not sure he is. But without a doubt he will play well and then just disappear for long stretches. Very long stretches. And then after the game he'll make comments that indicate he did his job and gave it his all. So I say effort, focus and aggression because that's the apparent effect of whatever is going on with him.

Yeah I have seen lazy players that lack effort and he just comes across to me as not being mentally tough, mentally confident and lacks killer instincts.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah I have seen lazy players that lack effort and he just comes across to me as not being mentally tough, mentally confident and lacks killer instincts.

I think bringing effort all the time is part of mental toughness though. I feel like this is like a chicken or the egg argument. The reality is that even though the reasons may be different, the result on offense is mostly the same.

Again, I can’t help but compare the other number 1 pick in in recent AZ sports. With Kyler we have seen MASSIVE leaps in multiple parts of his game in each successive season. Like, game-changing progression in areas he needed to work on from year to year. Last season he was transcendent with his legs and a better passer then his rookie year. This season, his third in the league, he’s an ELITE passer. And this is a guy who had a knock on him before he came in the league that he didn’t have much experience and that could mean his progression could take longer. Didn’t matter because he’s just that driven to get better snd take advantage of the elite gifts God gave him.

With Ayton in the regular season it’s seems like we’ve seen a guy who went from bad defensively in year 1 to better but still wanting in year 2 to good but still not always locked in by year 3. And his offense has been totally stuck in neutral since he stepped foot on the floor... at U of A. Same kind of God given gifts, I guess “not a lot of experience” because he’s only being playing basketball for ten years, and as a number 1 pick, we have yet to see a quantum leap making him elite at anything in year 4. He had a great playoff run, and we all marveled at it but that’s literally the only time he’s been consistently above average for two months time.

Just frustrating to see all the talent the kid has and not see him making those major strides a star usually takes from year to year adding their games.

 

[Big Al]

The issue isn't what Ayton can't do, it's what he can do but fails to do for long stretches in almost every single game. He has the potential to add so much to his game but even if he never improved in any way, shape or form other than being focused and giving consistent effort, the max decision would be easy. And he'd rack up the All NBA awards for a decade or more to come.

But in the one game so far this season we've seen the same old Ayton. The guy looked like the best big man in the league for a stretch in the first quarter and was invisible for most of the rest of the game. He was like that in college and he's been like that for the 3 years prior to this season.

So it's your evaluation of what Ayton should be? You have set the bar and expectation high and like most criticize Ayton to no end. It sounds like you have set a bar for a player who had one of worst college coaches in the nation and I'm not call him a college badketball coach what Sean Miller was at University of Arizona was a recruiter not a coach and certainly not a teacher of the game but he lined his own pockets. And then Ayton gets drafted by a Suns team that had no experienced big men to learn from and a team that thinks or thought 1 big was all you need. Ayton has had trash of players backing him up when he go out for a breather in Dario and Frank Kaminsky. So he probably was pacing himself instead of going full throttle because Dario Saric & Frank Kaminsky certainly couldn't keep up the pace and there always a let down when they step on the court. Why is the bar so low for these two Dario & Frank as they never get any criticism for the poor job they both do? And Phoenix wanted a complete polished center from day 1 without helping in the development of Ayton by not providing with a real big man coach as Mark Bryant was a journeyman at best during his career and I don't recall who was their big man coach prior to Mark Bryant but it probably worst. Was it Willie Green? My point is a player has to have skill and desire and an organization needs to contribute to that development of a player also by having good coaches and good team mates to play with and back him up when he needs a breather. His backup needs to be more than a smiling & glad I got front row seats watching NBA games and a good locker room guy and that describes Kaminsky. I think Javale McGee will help Ayton be a better player as now there's competition at practice and they can push each other. Kaminsky can't do that what he can do is ocassionally hit a 3 point shot and then going down the court get his b*** service up to him while he is on defense and he doesn't rebound worth a sh**. But everyone wants Ayton to meet their high expectations. The dude Ayton is talented, plays defend, is agile and quick for a big, and he rebounds which last year no one else on the Suns rebounded worth anything and as a raw rookie Aton averaged what 16-18 points and 10-11 rebounds a night. Lakers and Celtics would be glad for this type of production from a young big and would have surrounded him with some better bigs better than Dario, Kaminsky and Crowder. it takes time to develop big man especially when their instruction is weak. Ayton has had no mentor let me repeat No Mentor of any significance. I bet Ayton signs a offer with another team like the Lakers who would be willing to pay or we trade him for weak defense but good offence Karl Anthony Townes of Minnesota. And Ayton will well on another team. The Suns had it momentum rolling but thanks to Sarver not wanting to pay Ayton. It may however work out where Ayton is motivated highly and reaches new heights and the Suns make a consecutive NBA Finals appearance and win the dog gone championship this time. Who knows?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I partially agree with this. It’s partly Ayton and partly the offensive design. This offense was never intended to be built around Ayton. This was always Booker’s offense and now a combo of Paul/Booker. That wasn’t the case with Amare.

Trust me, if Ayton could punish teams in the post we’d be running a very different variation of this offense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I know people like to say it’s effort. I used to think that too but I have slowly changed my mind. I think it’s his mindset or head so to speak that stops him. I don’t think it’s lack of effort. Maybe I am splitting hairs but his lack of aggression to me seems to come from not believing he can do it verses him being lazy.

Oh he definitely has bouts of laziness too. The Portland game was a perfect example. He was consistently beaten down the floor by nurkic for a stretch of the game. Like 5 straight possessions. Nurkic. Let that sink in.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So it's your evaluation of what Ayton should be? You have set the bar and expectation high and like most criticize Ayton to no end. It sounds like you have set a bar for a player who had one of worst college coaches in the nation and I'm not call him a college badketball coach what Sean Miller was at University of Arizona was a recruiter not a coach and certainly not a teacher of the game but he lined his own pockets. And then Ayton gets drafted by a Suns team that had no experienced big men to learn from and a team that thinks or thought 1 big was all you need. Ayton has had trash of players backing him up when he go out for a breather in Dario and Frank Kaminsky. So he probably was pacing himself instead of going full throttle because Dario Saric & Frank Kaminsky certainly couldn't keep up the pace and there always a let down when they step on the court. Why is the bar so low for these two Dario & Frank as they never get any criticism for the poor job they both do? And Phoenix wanted a complete polished center from day 1 without helping in the development of Ayton by not providing with a real big man coach as Mark Bryant was a journeyman at best during his career and I don't recall who was their big man coach prior to Mark Bryant but it probably worst. Was it Willie Green? My point is a player has to have skill and desire and an organization needs to contribute to that development of a player also by having good coaches and good team mates to play with and back him up when he needs a breather. His backup needs to be more than a smiling & glad I got front row seats watching NBA games and a good locker room guy and that describes Kaminsky. I think Javale McGee will help Ayton be a better player as now there's competition at practice and they can push each other. Kaminsky can't do that what he can do is ocassionally hit a 3 point shot and then going down the court get his b*** service up to him while he is on defense and he doesn't rebound worth a sh**. But everyone wants Ayton to meet their high expectations. The dude Ayton is talented, plays defend, is agile and quick for a big, and he rebounds which last year no one else on the Suns rebounded worth anything and as a raw rookie Aton averaged what 16-18 points and 10-11 rebounds a night. Lakers and Celtics would be glad for this type of production from a young big and would have surrounded him with some better bigs better than Dario, Kaminsky and Crowder. it takes time to develop big man especially when their instruction is weak. Ayton has had no mentor let me repeat No Mentor of any significance. I bet Ayton signs a offer with another team like the Lakers who would be willing to pay or we trade him for weak defense but good offence Karl Anthony Townes of Minnesota. And Ayton will well on another team. The Suns had it momentum rolling but thanks to Sarver not wanting to pay Ayton. It may however work out where Ayton is motivated highly and reaches new heights and the Suns make a consecutive NBA Finals appearance and win the dog gone championship this time. Who knows?

You’re right. It’s Ayton’s backups and coaches fault that he plays soft, can be lazy, lose focus and has hands of stone for entire games and why he has no further development of skills. I don’t know how we didn’t see that.

 

[Hoop Head]

So it's your evaluation of what Ayton should be? You have set the bar and expectation high and like most criticize Ayton to no end. It sounds like you have set a bar for a player who had one of worst college coaches in the nation and I'm not call him a college badketball coach what Sean Miller was at University of Arizona was a recruiter not a coach and certainly not a teacher of the game but he lined his own pockets. And then Ayton gets drafted by a Suns team that had no experienced big men to learn from and a team that thinks or thought 1 big was all you need. Ayton has had trash of players backing him up when he go out for a breather in Dario and Frank Kaminsky. So he probably was pacing himself instead of going full throttle because Dario Saric & Frank Kaminsky certainly couldn't keep up the pace and there always a let down when they step on the court. Why is the bar so low for these two Dario & Frank as they never get any criticism for the poor job they both do? And Phoenix wanted a complete polished center from day 1 without helping in the development of Ayton by not providing with a real big man coach as Mark Bryant was a journeyman at best during his career and I don't recall who was their big man coach prior to Mark Bryant but it probably worst. Was it Willie Green? My point is a player has to have skill and desire and an organization needs to contribute to that development of a player also by having good coaches and good team mates to play with and back him up when he needs a breather. His backup needs to be more than a smiling & glad I got front row seats watching NBA games and a good locker room guy and that describes Kaminsky. I think Javale McGee will help Ayton be a better player as now there's competition at practice and they can push each other. Kaminsky can't do that what he can do is ocassionally hit a 3 point shot and then going down the court get his b*** service up to him while he is on defense and he doesn't rebound worth a sh**. But everyone wants Ayton to meet their high expectations. The dude Ayton is talented, plays defend, is agile and quick for a big, and he rebounds which last year no one else on the Suns rebounded worth anything and as a raw rookie Aton averaged what 16-18 points and 10-11 rebounds a night. Lakers and Celtics would be glad for this type of production from a young big and would have surrounded him with some better bigs better than Dario, Kaminsky and Crowder. it takes time to develop big man especially when their instruction is weak. Ayton has had no mentor let me repeat No Mentor of any significance. I bet Ayton signs a offer with another team like the Lakers who would be willing to pay or we trade him for weak defense but good offence Karl Anthony Townes of Minnesota. And Ayton will well on another team. The Suns had it momentum rolling but thanks to Sarver not wanting to pay Ayton. It may however work out where Ayton is motivated highly and reaches new heights and the Suns make a consecutive NBA Finals appearance and win the dog gone championship this time. Who knows?

There's so much wrong here but it's hard to address, or even read it all. Please break up your posts in paragraphs. It makes it much easier to read and respond to certain points.

Ayton's rookie year he had a backup in Richaun Holmes, who had 1 year experience as a 3rd string Center who was castoff from Philly. He strived and did things Ayton didn't and has done more since he left than Ayton also.

Baynes is a journeyman big who is also an NBA champ, like JaVale. Ayton decided to piss away the opportunity to learn anything from him by failing his drug test.

Coaches and players around the league rave about Mark Bryant's coaching. So what's Ayton's issue?

Why should the Suns invest so heavily in a player outside of his own salary. Not only should the Suns pay max money to Ayton but also pay top dollar for a backup to help him? Does Jokic, Embiid, KAT or Gobert need all that coddling? I don't think so.

If Ayton wants to be treated like a superstar then he needs to play like one, period.

 

[95pro]

There's so much wrong here but it's hard to address, or even read it all. Please break up your posts in paragraphs. It makes it much easier to read and respond to certain points.

Ayton's rookie year he had a backup in Richaun Holmes, who had 1 year experience as a 3rd string Center who was castoff from Philly. He strived and did things Ayton didn't and has done more since he left than Ayton also.

Baynes is a journeyman big who is also an NBA champ, like JaVale. Ayton decided to piss away the opportunity to learn anything from him by failing his drug test.

Coaches and players around the league rave about Mark Bryant's coaching. So what's Ayton's issue?

Why should the Suns invest so heavily in a player outside of his own salary. Not only should the Suns pay max money to Ayton but also pay top dollar for a backup to help him? Does Jokic, Embiid, KAT or Gobert need all that coddling? I don't think so.

If Ayton wants to be treated like a superstar then he needs to play like one, period.

I laughed at the "full throttle" part lol


Don't forget it was everyone else's fault for the 25 game suspension.

 

[Yuma]

I heard Monty on the radio today repeating that Ayton plays within the role they designed for him, and repeated that they would like to see him be more selfish (meaning put up more stats). The he said, sounded almost sad when he said this, something like, I don't think he will ever be that player. Then he ended with saying, Ayton is more about wins, (implying more than stats).

 

[Cheesebeef]

I heard Monty on the radio today repeating that Ayton plays within the role they designed for him, and repeated that they would like to see him be more selfish (meaning put up more stats). The he said, sounded almost sad when he said this, something like, I don't think he will ever be that player. Then he ended with saying, Ayton is more about wins, (implying more than stats).

It’s not just stats. It’s stats that come from impacting the game on offense and giving the team another look to throw at defenses so they’re not as dependent on three point shooting.

 

[Covert Rain]

I heard Monty on the radio today repeating that Ayton plays within the role they designed for him, and repeated that they would like to see him be more selfish (meaning put up more stats). The he said, sounded almost sad when he said this, something like, I don't think he will ever be that player. Then he ended with saying, Ayton is more about wins, (implying more than stats).

I heard this. It sure sounded like to me that they really don't have designed offensive plays for him per say. I also heard the other day them talking about this set where they throw the ball down to him to look for curls and pops or pass to cutting players. Between the two it sounds like in that latter scenario they want him to consider creating his own shot and shoot the ball. Sure sounded to me they don't intend on featuring him in the offense this year. It's going to be more or less the same as the playoffs. Pick and rolls, rebounded put backs...etc.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I heard this. It sure sounded like to me that they really don't have designed offensive plays for him per say. I also heard the other day them talking about this set where they throw the ball down to him to look for curls and pops or pass to cutting players. Between the two it sounds like in that latter scenario they want him to consider creating his own shot and shoot the ball. Sure sounded to me they don't intend on featuring him in the offense this year. It's going to be more or less the same as the playoffs. Pick and rolls, rebounded put backs...etc.

didn't sound to me like they don't intend to feature him on offense as much as they just flat out know they CAN'T feature him on offense because he's done thing to elevate his game or aggressiveness where he could be featured. intention has nothing to do with it when you know it's not an option.

and for the 1st player picked in a loaded draft, in his fourth year, who's demanding a MAX deal, that's pathetic

 

[Mainstreet]

I heard this. It sure sounded like to me that they really don't have designed offensive plays for him per say. I also heard the other day them talking about this set where they throw the ball down to him to look for curls and pops or pass to cutting players. Between the two it sounds like in that latter scenario they want him to consider creating his own shot and shoot the ball. Sure sounded to me they don't intend on featuring him in the offense this year. It's going to be more or less the same as the playoffs. Pick and rolls, rebounded put backs...etc.

I don't think Ayton can create his own offense.

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't think Ayton can create his own offense.

No he can't. If he wants to be elite he is never going to get there if he can't either.

 

[Mainstreet]

No he can't. If he wants to be elite he is never going to get there if he can't either.

Minimally Ayton needs to create some low post money moves.

 

[95pro]

Aytons moves are all about avoiding contact which is why he draws zero fouls. He also doesn’t bang down low once he gets an offensive rebound to get an attempt up for himself.

 

[Yuma]

Watching last night's games, and all his games so far, the guy is money on a straight up jumper from the elbow.

The Suns run an offense where the ball handler gives the ball to Ayton above the free throw line. Then a Sun will curl off a screen from the corner and go around Ayton for a hand off. Sometimes the defender gets ahead of the curling Suns player, and Ayton has to hold the ball. He is stuck there with the ball until another Suns gets open.

If Ayton would just turn. Then dribble 2-3 dribbles to the elbow spot, free throw line, etc., he has an open shot from his money range. Easy way for him to create his own offense.

I have seen Ayton occasionally dribble in on another center to get his own offense. I know he can dribble.

Why can't he just dribble 2-3 dribbles in to his money range, and even if he takes a Jack Sikma amount of time to set up, no one is blocking his shot?

 

[Covert Rain]

Aytons moves are all about avoiding contact which is why he draws zero fouls. He also doesn’t bang down low once he gets an offensive rebound to get an attempt up for himself.

This part is the difference between getting 20 something on a night like this and getting 30.

 

[overseascardfan]

Maybe consider making Ayton a 3 & D guy. Traditional post up C's don't really exist anymore so maybe its a good thing he doesn't have a go to post move.

Now PHX not wanting to do a 5 year deal makes sense, they don't think he's going to develop to a max level player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Maybe consider making Ayton a 3 & D guy. Traditional post up C's don't really exist anymore so maybe its a good thing he doesn't have a go to post move.

Now PHX not wanting to do a 5 year deal makes sense, they don't think he's going to develop to a max level player.

I think he'll get the 5 year max from us this summer. I just don't think we wanted to risk 30% plus higher raises. IMO he's already shown enough to warrant the 25% max despite his lack of consistency.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think he'll get the 5 year max from us this summer. I just don't think we wanted to risk 30% plus higher raises. IMO he's already shown enough to warrant the 25% max despite his lack of consistency.

If he doesn’t show MAJOR growth this season and we look like a one year wonder, I don’t think they sign him to a five year MAX.