The Ayton Plan

Fumats20

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A year behind, maybe. Not 3 years behind. He got screwed his rookie year but so did the rest of that class in missing Summer League entirely and a shortened training camp, rookie season, and more restricted G-LEAGUE year. Year 2 he was dealt at the deadline though and played regularly in Indiana. What was the issue this year? This is his 3rd year, BTW, so you can't say he's 3 years behind when his 3rd season just happened and he played the entirety for Indiana.

He's doing 10 & 6 in only 18 minutes.

There are players who double that time and come nowhere close.

I don't understand your question when you know the history. Is 18 minutes normal? What does he do happens 25 minutes or 30 minutes?

Do you know he made NBA history twice? One personally (3rd or 4th player to have a double double in 15 minutes with 15+ points) & the other a part of his team (team to win with 5+ players all having 3+ three pointers each)

So I would expect Stix to continue to improve with more playing time to get more experience. That's what I was referring to when I say missed development. I mean he missed live game reps that come from playing game.

Maybe that's why Monty stayed on contact with him and praised him when he didn't even acknowledge DA. If it were me ain't no way I'm answering the call when Monty's name pops up...but I ain't in the NBA either.
 
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He's doing 10 & 6 in only 18 minutes.

There are players who double that time and come nowhere close.

I don't understand your question when you know the history. Is 18 minutes normal? What does he do happens 25 minutes or 30 minutes?

Do you know he made NBA history twice? One personally (3rd or 4th player to have a double double in 15 minutes with 15+ points) & the other a part of his team (team to win with 5+ players all having 3+ three pointers each)

So I would expect Stix to continue to improve with more playing time to get more experience. That's what I was referring to when I say missed development. I mean he missed live game reps that come from playing game.

Maybe that's why Monty stayed on contact with him and praised him when he didn't even acknowledge DA.

He's on a losing team now and isn't seeing more minutes, he's the same player he was here. Why is that? You seemed to blame Monty and while Monty didn't give him a fair shake, his option was already declined so he had one foot out the door and Monty had zero reason to develop him. You said he's 3 years behind and needs to be afforded time to develop that a losing team could offer and that's what he's had the last year and a half and he hasn't grown. So not sure Monty is entirely to blame in that regard.
 

Fumats20

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Lol...ok. Monty has done a mighty fine job. My bad. You right.

KD needs time to get acclimated but Stix don't need any. You right. He's had enough already.
 
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Lol...ok. Monty has done a mighty fine job. My bad. You right.

KD needs time to get acclimated but Stix don't need any. You right. He's had enough already.

Did I say that? No. I'm questioning your claims he's somehow 3 years behind when he was only in Phoenix for a year and a half. You said he needed to be on a losing team to develop but he is and he's still not seeing minutes, why? Don't put words in my mouth. I've been very straight forward. I'm questioning how you're jumping to these far fetched conclusions.
 

Fumats20

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My bad, i need to be clearer. 3 years don't indicated minute development. It's to vague for me because there are signicant gaps. And where you get drafted affect how many minutes are available. Usually lottery teams are bad so rookies get a lot of minutes. Stix went to a lottery team that was a contender. No minutes, due to win mode.

He played 140 games in 3 years at 16 mins per game.

For his draft class (his peers, the future)..... he ranks 29 in games played & 30 in total minutes at 2300. Players in his draft class that still finding their way have played at least twice as many minutes. He's ranks 19 on points average & 8 in rebound average. Only one player, Wiseman, has played less minutes averaged more than him...but all other players have played twice to triple his minutes.

He is minutes (my bad not games or years) behind. 2300 compared to 5000-6000 (not speaking of the stars, the decent to good who played alot of minutes) is a lot. As you do something more you get good at it.

Reduced minutes, reduced production.

More minutes, more of a "chance" to produce more but definitely more experience and more acclimation.
 
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elindholm

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He played 140 games in 3 years at 16 mins per game.

For his draft class (his peers, the future)..... he ranks 29 in games played & 30 in total minutes at 2300. Players in his draft class that still finding their way have played at least twice as many minutes. He's ranks 19 on points average & 8 in rebound average. Only one player, Wiseman, has played less minutes averaged more than him...but all other players have played twice to triple his minutes.

Reduced minutes, reduced production.

More minutes, more of a "chance" to produce more but definitely more experience and more acclimation.
He's a stretch big who can't shoot 30% from three-point range and who fouls at a high rate because he's not strong enough to defend his position. I don't know what else to tell you.
 

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My bad, i need to be clearer. 3 years don't indicated minute development. It's to vague for me because there are signicant gaps. And where you get drafted affect how many minutes are available. Usually lottery teams are bad so rookies get a lot of minutes. Stix went to a lottery team that was a contender. No minutes, due to win mode.

He played 140 games in 3 years at 16 mins per game.

For his draft class (his peers, the future)..... he ranks 29 in games played & 30 in total minutes at 2300. Players in his draft class that still finding their way have played at least twice as many minutes. He's ranks 19 on points average & 8 in rebound average. Only one player, Wiseman, has played less minutes averaged more than him...but all other players have played twice to triple his minutes.

He is minutes (my bad not games or years) behind. 2300 compared to 5000-6000 (not speaking of the stars, the decent to good who played alot of minutes) is a lot. As you do something more you get good at it.

Reduced minutes, reduced production.

More minutes, more of a "chance" to produce more but definitely more experience and more acclimation.

He hasn't improved in Indiana though despite the additional playing time so what exactly are you blaming Monty for? Saying he's middle of the road proves nothing. He was a lottery pick, he shouldn't be middle of the road. If he were mishandled here so bad then he should be thriving in Indiana but he's not. He's barely seeing the court more because he can't keep from fouling and he's not earning more time based on his play.

If you're going to condemn Monty and how he was handled you should have some statistical evidence to show how much better he's done since he's been away from Monty's coaching staff but that doesn't exist.

You steered the discussion down this road. No one is picking on you by asking for proof of your claims. Most agree he was mishandled here but it's not as egregious as you made it out to be. I think James Jones is more at fault than Monty but you seem to blame Monty and I'd like to know what Monty has done so much different than Billy Donovan because his numbers are damn near identical.
 

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Ok he hasn't and won't improve. You right too.

I believe Monty & James didn't agree with how Smith was used and there was internal conflict. And Monty tried to clear that omen (karma) that has followed Monty each of the three win now modes years by publicly admitting he didn't give Smith a fair shake a few months ago. Why he say that out of the blue? What did he see that would warrant a need for the statement to be made for a player who has not improved since you last had him? Who cares at that point you were right....right? That was 3 win mode years ago. It's not Monty's fault or error...right?

WTF you talking about you say to me? Most be coincidental that Monty may be on his way out in a very humiliating way while the wrong pick is still humbly finding his way and being allowed to improve.

And you add its not just Smith the wrong pick it's issues with DA, it's issues with Crowder, it's issues with CP3 that all could be included in that omen of how you treat people. All that redemption talk but you still dusplay the same pattern. Your actions & your words don't match but you fool people. Fake nice.
 
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elindholm

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Ok he hasn't and won't improve. You right too.

I believe Monty & James didn't agree with how Smith was used and there was internal conflict. And Monty tried to clear that omen (karma) that has followed Monty each of the three win now modes years by publicly admitting he didn't give Smith a fair shake a few months ago. Why he say that out of the blue? What did he see that would warrant a need for the statement to be made for a player who has not improved since you last had him? Who cares at that point you were right....right? That was 3 win mode years ago. It's not Monty's fault or error...right?

I'm not defending Williams. Almost any NBA player will improve over their first four or five years, and Smith probably won't be an exception. But there are only so many roster spots to go around, and Smith is not, nor will soon be, in a position to contribute meaningfully to a championship-seeking team. He's struggling to get time on a team that finished 12 games under .500 and really has nothing better to do than give him every chance to succeed. Bottom line, he's not good.

WTF you talking about you say to me? Most be coincidental that Monty may be on his way out in a very humiliating way while the wrong pick is still humbly finding his way and being allowed to improve.

And you add its not just Smith the wrong pick it's issues with DA, it's issues with Crowder, it's issues with CP3 that all could be included in that omen of how you treat people. All that redemption talk but you still dusplay the same pattern. Your actions & your words don't match but you fool people. Fake nice.

I can tell you're upset. I think of all of the things that Williams has done wrong, failing to "develop" Jalen Smith is pretty far down the list.
 

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Smith is good especially when he plays 20+ minutes & right there with his draft class despite less minutes.

You never like Smith (the pick..i understand that) if you saw no good when he did good.

Like DA, he has value in the league regardless of what the Suns think or did.

And I only responded to "he wasn't mocked 1st round"....although he was....who cares some reporters repeat what they "say" the know about the mock.....he was in the green room and had a 1st range. Suns snatched him I don't know why but you will never know how much those missing minutes would have him at today.

Monty don't know how to coach players who can't coach themselves. He repeated the same behavior with players still sitting on the bench right now watching him allow his "favorites" to build brick houses.

Monty treated DA like crap so I didn't expect him to treat the wondering no good rookie any different.

And as for his playing time at Indiana, Carlisle was tanking & trying to get his draft picks all rookie nodes and had a losing record with them & everybody's favorite & the one some want to trade for ... with them playing heavy minutes. Smith was not the priority because Indiana was hell bent on losing regardless. Inidiana fans questioned why Smith got no time. Carlisle too admitted it was by design and Smith played well regardless, was professional in the difficult time. It wasn't that all Smith was bad. He was actually good despite not playing.

I believe Indiana knew they had time to play around with Smith's development while they tried to figure out there future because they were over crowed. They had 5 centers.

after playing 2 bigs with a winning record sitting at the 4th seed beating teams the Suns lost too with Smith at 12 & 8 in 20 minutes Smith as a starter...indiana went extreme small ball and proceeded to tank. Indiana had convinced Smith to sign a 3 year contract after he instead of 2 years. Indiana had time to figure their rooster out & after being historically embarrassed by the Suns Indiana knew s
Smith wouldn't complain publicly but still do work. I believe Smith is gets limited time becsuse he hasn't established roots on a team to get a real chance. There's an omen (karma) on Smith too that he has to shake off. It's the label of bust when he's clearly not.
 
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Fumats20

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I'm not defending Williams. Almost any NBA player will improve over their first four or five years, and Smith probably won't be an exception. But there are only so many roster spots to go around, and Smith is not, nor will soon be, in a position to contribute meaningfully to a championship-seeking team. He's struggling to get time on a team that finished 12 games under .500 and really has nothing better to do than give him every chance to succeed. Bottom line, he's not good.



I can tell you're upset. I think of all of the things that Williams has done wrong, failing to "develop" Jalen Smith is pretty far down the list.

Not upset at all. Just stating my thoughts and opinions on a free very public internet site for anybody to comment on with the same or a different opinion...kind of what these online forums are made for.. not mad at all.

I think he will improve with more time, you do not. I think he played very well when he got minutes (in light of how his career is going) and you said he didn't (funny even Monty said he improved...no Monty he just played. Even Willie Greene said he improved & was doing what they all knew he can do thats why he was drafted while coaching another team).....but i get it you don't see it...so I'll be watching & you will too since you know he's still horrible means you watching him too.

Again you right, right now Monty got more important things to think about. And Smith asset mismanagement was not even a thing of importance to even discuss. It was a nothing burger. The Suns simply threw out the trash.

Next subject, looks like the Suns are starting to moving out more trash. If Monty's released, what team do you think he goes too and what would be his role? You think he will do anything different at his next gig? I think Willie Greene will add Monty to his staff. Whatchu think?
 
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I do think the Suns do a poor job of developing players but that is no excuse for a player to mail it in while collecting a huge contract.
Actually Bridges and Johnson developed pretty well... 200% the FO was wishing that DA was the piece to make the KD trade. Hindsight is 20/20 - 4 1st rounders and filler should have been enough to get KD. The sale getting done prior to the deadline did not work out so well. It makes me sick that MB and his team friendly contract is gone. I was not aware of the new CBA and how it actually hurts the Suns going fwd
 

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Actually Bridges and Johnson developed pretty well... 200% the FO was wishing that DA was the piece to make the KD trade. Hindsight is 20/20 - 4 1st rounders and filler should have been enough to get KD. The sale getting done prior to the deadline did not work out so well. It makes me sick that MB and his team friendly contract is gone. I was not aware of the new CBA and how it actually hurts the Suns going fwd

It helped Mikal Bridges and Cam Johnson were skilled, NBA ready players when they entered the league.

Kellan Olson mentioned he didn't think James Jones wanted to include Bridges in the Kevin Durant trade. I hope this is true because it makes me think slightly better of him as a GM. However, he made some mistakes that cost the Suns dearly.

See snippet below from Arizona Sports.


By Kellan Olson, Arizona Sports:

The reality of new ownership across the top sports leagues is to expect anything when it comes to the amount of organizational makeover. It’s not a coincidence that the Kevin Durant deal got done when it did, during Mat Ishbia’s arrival. When piecing together all the reports, it sure seems like Jones didn’t want to let Mikal Bridges become part of the deal before Ishbia was able to get the trade completed with Bridges in it.


 

Fumats20

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They were never getting KD without giving up the better players. Cam and Mikal were the better players.

It's actual hilarious to think that the Suns were trying to get KD with a bench that failed them. Nobody was bailing out the Suns for their choices.

You want better trades where you can keep certain players then you have to pick better players....and play them to boost their value.

Otherwise nobody was paying big money sight unseen, before even one game was played, like the Suns did. Others take player evaluation more seriously.

And the New Owner knew that. That's why he pulled off the band aid and let it burn.
 
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Mainstreet

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@Fumats20

Jalen Smith is not the problem.

James Jones drafting a developmental player at #10 and playing him out of position is the mistake.

I think Smith will eventually develop into a 4/5 but his true position entering the NBA was a 5.
 

Mainstreet

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And so it begins. Upgrading the scouting department?

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I certainly hope the Suns upgrade their scouting department.

As I understand it, most of their scouts were used to scout opponents, not the draft.
 

AzStevenCal

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I certainly hope the Suns upgrade their scouting department.

As I understand it, most of their scouts were used to scout opponents, not the draft.
Yes, unless something has changed, we only really scout the other NBA teams so I think we pretty much need a complete scouting department. With quality scouts for high school, college, international and G League play.
 

Raindog

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Yes, unless something has changed, we only really scout the other NBA teams so I think we pretty much need a complete scouting department. With quality scouts for high school, college, international and G League play.
I'm guessing someone mentioned the need for a full scouting department to Sarver sometime along the way and he responded "Hey, I have a better idea. How about we just get the GM a subscription to watch University of Kentucky games on cable instead?"

And then a few years later, when the cost of a Kentucky season subscription went up, Sarver was like "Eh, the GM can just watch YouTube for free."
 

AzStevenCal

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I'm guessing someone mentioned the need for a full scouting department to Sarver sometime along the way and he responded "Hey, I have a better idea. How about we just get the GM a subscription to watch University of Kentucky games on cable instead?"

And then a few years later, when the cost of a Kentucky season subscription went up, Sarver was like "Eh, the GM can just watch YouTube for free."
Well we used to have a full scouting department and scouts that had connections and experience with international ball. They started downsizing it and then I think when JJ took over they got rid of all of it plus the G League team. Either JJ believes drafting is useless or he believed it was the safest place to reduce costs to keep Sarver off his back. I can buy it either way. And the end result is the same, we have no means to develop the young players we don't have.
 

Mainstreet

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Well we used to have a full scouting department and scouts that had connections and experience with international ball. They started downsizing it and then I think when JJ took over they got rid of all of it plus the G League team. Either JJ believes drafting is useless or he believed it was the safest place to reduce costs to keep Sarver off his back. I can buy it either way. And the end result is the same, we have no means to develop the young players we don't have.

I'm not sure what the right answer is but here is how I pictured it in my mind.

I envisioned Robert Sarver putting a stack of money on the table and telling James Jones here is your budget.

You can spend it on a G-League team, scouting or on players. It's your choice.

I think Jones chose to spend it on proven players.
 

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I feel bad for anyone losing a job. But we have needed the same things for 5 years.
 

AzStevenCal

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I'm not sure what the right answer is but here is how I pictured it in my mind.

I envisioned Robert Sarver putting a stack of money on the table and telling James Jones here is your budget.

You can spend it on a G-League team, scouting or on players. It's your choice.

I think Jones chose to spend it on proven players.
Yeah, that's roughly where I am but not much would surprise me about this organization the past 15 years or so.
 

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