The Ayton Plan

Mainstreet

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I think at this point he’s easily top 5 realistically

The numbers back it up over the past few years.

I think Ayton is in the top 5 but it was easier to say top ten without disagreement. Some of the competitors are not true centers.
 

AzStevenCal

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I think at this point he’s easily top 5 realistically

The numbers back it up over the past few years.
Not all numbers are created equal. Judging by my eyesight on his impact, there are times when I'd rank him a clear 3rd best center but then he has those games (or halves or quarters) where I wouldn't put him in the top 20. And all told, I have no idea where I'd rank him. But I wouldn't trade him for less than 3rd best center value because we know he can give us that when he's focused and we're not likely to get anywhere close to that kind of return in trade.
 

Finito

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You have to admit though that there's a huge drop off after the top 2 or 3 with Embiid and Jokic being clearly a head above the rest.

Joker and Embiid are two of the three best players in the NBA right now though. Joker is generational IMO.

Embiid on the other hand has proven to be a regular season star. Despite playing with multiple all stars and multiple all defensive team players he’s never made it out of the second round. He’s had some absolute meltdowns in the playoffs.

Embiid gets off to fast starts and then by the 4th he’s dead tired and chucking up 3s.
 

Finito

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Not all numbers are created equal. Judging by my eyesight on his impact, there are times when I'd rank him a clear 3rd best center but then he has those games (or halves or quarters) where I wouldn't put him in the top 20. And all told, I have no idea where I'd rank him. But I wouldn't trade him for less than 3rd best center value because we know he can give us that when he's focused and we're not likely to get anywhere close to that kind of return in trade.

Well then that’s your answer.

How many guys at his position would you take over a player.
 

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Joker and Embiid are two of the three best players in the NBA right now though. Joker is generational IMO.

Embiid on the other hand has proven to be a regular season star. Despite playing with multiple all stars and multiple all defensive team players he’s never made it out of the second round. He’s had some absolute meltdowns in the playoffs.

Embiid gets off to fast starts and then by the 4th he’s dead tired and chucking up 3s.
Sounds like how they talked about Hakeem before he peaked in the mid-90’s. I do agree that his conditioning should be 15% better.
 

Phrazbit

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This post is just wrong.

Bridges and Cam really plateaued here. Honestly I thought well that’s just who Bridges is. He was really inconsistent here on offense and even his defense took a huge step back this year. His defensive rating fell off a cliff this year

And then he got traded and has freaking sky rocketed doing things and playing like I never even imagined he could. I thought ok he’s gonna come back down to earth but he hasn’t.

Cam Payne had 1 good year 3 years ago and has been the definition of inconsistent ever since. He’s regressed since our finals run. I have no idea what to expect from him when he checks in at this point.

Craig is who he is. A quality role player he hasn’t developed into anything. He’s always been that guy.

I really like Okogie but he’s far from a finished product. I think he has great potential

Let’s not forget guys like Stix and Holiday who Monty wouldn’t invest in cause he fell in love with Nadar and Shamet.

Monty hasn’t shown the ability to develop talent at all

Bridges and Cam, literally, improved with each season they were here. Plateaued is complete nonsense.

These other guys were literally struggling to stay in the league, Monty has them playing important roles an excelling.

The only player who has drastically improved under him is Ayton, and while Ayton has improved on defense (although he has taken a step back this year) he's not evolved on offense.

Again, I don't blame Monty, Ayton's issues are his own problem.
 

Carolinacacti

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Wendell Carter picked 7th in same draft as Ayton. Two years ago he was a deer in head lights. Different player now is it coaching the player our both? I do believe Ayton would do better somewhere else.
 

AzStevenCal

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Wendell Carter picked 7th in same draft as Ayton. Two years ago he was a deer in head lights. Different player now is it coaching the player our both? I do believe Ayton would do better somewhere else.
How many shrinks does it take to change a light bulb? One, but it will only change if it wants to.
 

Finito

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How many shrinks does it take to change a light bulb? One, but it will only change if it wants to.

I’ve said it a million times developing talent is as important as talent itself.

Ayton’s not even playing and you’re seeing this team routinely playing soft avoiding contact getting bullied, you know why? Because it’s Monty’s personality it’s how he’s taught them to play. Jump shooting avoiding contact “play the right way”

This team isn’t tough or physical and it’s by design. I don’t understand how people still don’t see this
 

AzStevenCal

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I’ve said it a million times developing talent is as important as talent itself.

Ayton’s not even playing and you’re seeing this team routinely playing soft avoiding contact getting bullied, you know why? Because it’s Monty’s personality it’s how he’s taught them to play. Jump shooting avoiding contact “play the right way”

This team isn’t tough or physical and it’s by design. I don’t understand how people still don’t see this
We don't have a low post bully game or a Jae Crowder but most of the fouls we get called for are legit, for whatever reason they just aren't being called both ways.

And we do play physical but when CP3 gets called for 3 quick fouls early in the game that makes our pylon quick PG even more exploitable which makes the rest of our defense have to watch a layup line or reach because they are out of position. It has nothing to do with design or coaching philosohy.
 

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How many shrinks does it take to change a light bulb? One, but it will only change if it wants to.
Speaking of shrinks Monty could have a ph.d in psychology and it wouldn’t change DA. He’s a baby deer in David Robinson’s body. He might post better numbers somewhere else but you’ll never see consistent high level impact or ‘imposing of Will’ for more than a weeklong stretch. I’ve accepted it and am done being bothered by it.
 

Finito

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We don't have a low post bully game or a Jae Crowder but most of the fouls we get called for are legit, for whatever reason they just aren't being called both ways.

And we do play physical but when CP3 gets called for 3 quick fouls early in the game that makes our pylon quick PG even more exploitable which makes the rest of our defense have to watch a layup line or reach because they are out of position. It has nothing to do with design or coaching philosohy.

Honestly we must be watching two different teams. I don’t see how anyone on earth could argue the Suns a physical team.

I think it’s clear as day what the problem is I guess we agree to disagree
 

AzStevenCal

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Speaking of shrinks Monty could have a ph.d in psychology and it wouldn’t change DA. He’s a baby deer in David Robinson’s body. He might post better numbers somewhere else but you’ll never see consistent high level impact or ‘imposing of Will’ for more than a weeklong stretch. I’ve accepted it and am done being bothered by it.
I'm not so sure Monty isn't partly to blame but I agree, Ayton isn't likely to change at this point. But I believe if DA had landed in San Antonio, he'd have become a more complete player. He still might not be David Robinson and he might even drive Pop crazy enough to trade him but if so he'd have been enough of a force to get a Gobert package or better.

Unfortunately we can't expect anything close to a Gobert kind of deal if we finally get frustrated enough to move on from him. It's likely we won't even be able to replace the value we get from him on his average nights.
 

AzStevenCal

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Honestly we must be watching two different teams. I don’t see how anyone on earth could argue the Suns a physical team.

I think it’s clear as day what the problem is I guess we agree to disagree
For most of the history of the Suns we've justifiably had a reputation as a finesse team. Despite what's being said here, that's not our reputation the past few years. Booker, CP3 and Jae changed that reputation. Now, with no Jae and no CP3, we're less physical but we had these same foul differential issues even when we were playing more physical at both ends.

DA goes out of his way to avoid contact when he scores but he still gets contact and few calls. On defense, he plays decent position basketball down low but almost never gets the benefit of a verticality call. That isn't lack of physicality, it's a double standard. Booker gets called for a soft push-off, Luka can push a player into a different county and he gets a trip to the line. CP3 can be physically re-directed often but when he does it, he's nailed for it. And so on.

We're living with a double standard and it's not just the superstar treatment around the league. The league does not want the Suns in the limelight until the stench of Sarver is a distant memory. JMO.
 

Finito

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For most of the history of the Suns we've justifiably had a reputation as a finesse team. Despite what's being said here, that's not our reputation the past few years. Booker, CP3 and Jae changed that reputation. Now, with no Jae and no CP3, we're less physical but we had these same foul differential issues even when we were playing more physical at both ends.

DA goes out of his way to avoid contact when he scores but he still gets contact and few calls. On defense, he plays decent position basketball down low but almost never gets the benefit of a verticality call. That isn't lack of physicality, it's a double standard. Booker gets called for a soft push-off, Luka can push a player into a different county and he gets a trip to the line. CP3 can be physically re-directed often but when he does it, he's nailed for it. And so on.

We're living with a double standard and it's not just the superstar treatment around the league. The league does not want the Suns in the limelight until the stench of Sarver is a distant memory. JMO.

Ok
 

Joe Mama

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I just can't believe there's some Grand conspiracy against the Phoenix Suns or even for the LA Lakers. I do agree with the idea that sometimes get the reputation of being a good physical Defense which translates roughly two fouling a lot and getting away with most of it. Think Boston and Milwaukee.

I don't see how Monty's press conference or Booker 's comments especially are going to help with the referees going forward
 

Cheesebeef

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I just can't believe there's some Grand conspiracy against the Phoenix Suns or even for the LA Lakers.
Agree. I mean, now the conspiracy isn’t just about Sarver, it’s about Sarver… residue even though he’s gone?

That’s ridiculous.
I do agree with the idea that sometimes get the reputation of being a good physical Defense which translates roughly two fouling a lot and getting away with most of it. Think Boston and Milwaukee.

I don't see how Monty's press conference or Booker 's comments especially are going to help with the referees going forward
The complaining about the refs from Monty just shows a lack of self-awareness to this team’s deficiencies. They literally have NO ONE who attacks the basket or plays above the rim. And haven’t basically since Amare.
 

AzStevenCal

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I just can't believe there's some Grand conspiracy against the Phoenix Suns or even for the LA Lakers. I do agree with the idea that sometimes get the reputation of being a good physical Defense which translates roughly two fouling a lot and getting away with most of it. Think Boston and Milwaukee.

I don't see how Monty's press conference or Booker 's comments especially are going to help with the referees going forward
I don't think there is either but as has been said before, the veteran referees know who the league wants to win (and lose) and Sarver has been a huge embarrassment to this league.

But whatever it is, I've watched this team play forever and I've never seen the difference in fouls as I have the past 2 years. At first, I chalked it up to us playing more physically and figured we just weren't getting the benefit of the doubt yet from the referees that are heavily influenced by reputation.

But we've been near the absolute bottom when it comes to free throw difference for 3 years now. Considering how good we were the past two years that seems difficult to reconcile. I can't recall ever seeing a good team that's among the best at both ends of the court be at such a FT disadvantage. None of this is proof, it's just the only explanation that makes sense to me.
 

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However you feel about the officiating, the NBA now has a pretty major problem on their hands with the footage of DeAngelo Russell going viral.
 

Phrazbit

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I think the Suns have a lot of players and a head coach who don't know how to work the refs. Paul has had issues with refs his whole career, Booker responds to feeling slighted on one end by deliberately whacking a guy on the other. The NBA has proven that if you play physical you will be rewarded on both ends... Ayton is the antithesis of that, he is a sound defender but gets called for ticky tack bull crap, then on offense he never forces the issue with the refs. Monty is far too passive when calls are obviously unfair and should use his challenge to protest obviously terrible calls instead of saving it for the rare occasion there is a decisive call in the closing seconds.

I 100% believe we get freaking screwed by officiating... but I do not think it is a conspiracy (unless Scott Foster is there).

The refs suck, and they suck in specific ways that we are bad at taking advantage of.
 
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elindholm

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The refs suck, and they suck in specific ways that we are bad at taking advantage of.

That's an excellent one-sentence summary. It's just as important to influence the officiating as it is to influence how your players play. That's the big thing that has set Phil Jackson and Popovich apart from the crowd. They have a game plan for managing the officials, and it's as much a part of their team strategy as anything else is.
 

ASUCHRIS

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That's an excellent one-sentence summary. It's just as important to influence the officiating as it is to influence how your players play. That's the big thing that has set Phil Jackson and Popovich apart from the crowd. They have a game plan for managing the officials, and it's as much a part of their team strategy as anything else is.
The "they can't call a foul on every play" strategy, popularized by Riley/Van Gundy, etc. By acquiring a guy like Jae, we finally tapped into the dark arts. I hate that style of basketball, but unfortunately it works.
 

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