The Ayton Plan

clyde2tw

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DA has his issues, but if motivated to give effort and pay attention, he is very effective in Suns offensive schemes. It's not a good time to trade him.
 

Hoop Head

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DA has his issues, but if motivated to give effort and pay attention, he is very effective in Suns offensive schemes. It's not a good time to trade him.

How do you motivate him? He's getting paid max money and still isn't consistently motivated.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Yeah he does a lot of watching. It’s fascinating to see a guy who can put up counting numbers like he can despitr when you watch him you see him often just watching the game from the best seats in the house . . . on the court. Oh t just speaks to how incredible he could be if he didn’t have lapses like every other trip down the court.
 

Mainstreet

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I think Ayton is somehow missing the attitude that when the ball goes up, the rebound belongs to him.

Good rebounders are tracking the ball and have a sense of ownership.
 

Covert Rain

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Yeah he does a lot of watching. It’s fascinating to see a guy who can put up counting numbers like he can despitr when you watch him you see him often just watching the game from the best seats in the house . . . on the court. Oh t just speaks to how incredible he could be if he didn’t have lapses like every other trip down the court.
I don't buy the narrative some people put out there about Ayton being lazy. To me, Ayton lacks situational awareness (it's a dome issue with him). Perfect example is I hear Shaq and announcers all the time say Ayton needs to stop bringing the ball down under the basket and keep it high....yet he does it....constantly. DOME THING. He is out of position often on defense around the rim. DOME THING. Ayton has some really bad habits he simply appears unable to break. It's scary his lack of situational awareness at this stage.
 

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I don't buy the narrative some people put out there about Ayton being lazy. To me, Ayton lacks situational awareness (it's a dome issue with him). Perfect example is I hear Shaq and announcers all the time say Ayton needs to stop bringing the ball down under the basket and keep it high....yet he does it....constantly. DOME THING. He is out of position often on defense around the rim. DOME THING. Ayton has some really bad habits he simply appears unable to break. It's scary his lack of situational awareness at this stage.
I disagree. When I see a player that can dunk with very little effort, and yet he constantly misses layups that could've easily been dunked, that tells me the problem is a lack of effort and laziness.
 

Covert Rain

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I disagree. When I see a player that can dunk with very little effort, and yet he constantly misses layups that could've easily been dunked, that tells me the problem is a lack of effort and laziness.
Situational awareness and he lacks a killer instinct (that's my rebound or I am going to dunk on you). I don't think that has anything to do with being lazy. I think if anything when I see him dog it? It's sometimes when he is running down the court. Sometimes he is the last one down and I see Paul yelling at him.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I think Ayton is somehow missing the attitude that when the ball goes up, the rebound belongs to him.

Good rebounders are tracking the ball and have a sense of ownership.
Agree. You’re not going to get every rebound, but the really legit good rebounders try for almost every rebound. All too often on offense I see Ayton boxed out by a guard having made no effort to to get to the ball. Just zero effort. I would get it if he’s outta position with a big between him and the ball, but it’s often guards. No way an embiid or a giannis just watches.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I don't buy the narrative some people put out there about Ayton being lazy. To me, Ayton lacks situational awareness (it's a dome issue with him). Perfect example is I hear Shaq and announcers all the time say Ayton needs to stop bringing the ball down under the basket and keep it high....yet he does it....constantly. DOME THING. He is out of position often on defense around the rim. DOME THING. Ayton has some really bad habits he simply appears unable to break. It's scary his lack of situational awareness at this stage.
I think that’s definitely part of it. As is not having an aggressive mindset and not liking contact. But I think you’re not being honest with yourself if you don’t think Ayton gets lazy on the court.
 

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Situational awareness and he lacks a killer instinct. I don't think that has anything to do with being lazy.
Lacks situational awareness, yes. Lacks a killer instinct, absolutely. Lazy? I'm just not sure (either way). Whatever it is, he's our version of Derrick Coleman meets Ronnie Seikaly. Makes you wonder why Ayton didn't choose Syracuse instead of UA.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Situational awareness and he lacks a killer instinct (that's my rebound or I am going to dunk on you). I don't think that has anything to do with being lazy. I think if anything when I see him dog it? It's sometimes when he is running down the court. Sometimes he is the last one down and I see Paul yelling at him.
Lack of aggressive mindset
 

Covert Rain

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I think that’s definitely part of it. As is not having an aggressive mindset and not liking contact. But I think you’re not being honest with yourself if you don’t think Ayton gets lazy on the court.
I have a hard time buying into the lazy argument for any athlete to be honest. These guys dedicate hours upon hours upon hours in the gym, lifting weights, practice etc. Not that taking a play off or two doesn't happen.....it does. However, to me when you call a player lazy? It means something different. I think the vast majority of Ayton's issues come from Ayton's head. He doesn't have a high basketball IQ, lacks situational awareness and lacks any kind of killer instinct (nastiness). To me that is 98% of what is wrong with his game.

Lacks situational awareness, yes. Lacks a killer instinct, absolutely. Lazy? I'm just not sure (either way). Whatever it is, he's our version of Derrick Coleman meets Ronnie Seikaly. Makes you wonder why Ayton didn't choose Syracuse instead of UA.
Borris Diaw comes to mind. Now that guy used to drive me nuts. I have a video cut somewhere of him. It showed him basically dogging it down court in multiple cuts and never leaving his feet on defense when guys would shoot, or when he was around the basket. Oh man...I have to find it.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I have a hard time buying into the lazy argument for any athlete to be honest. These guys dedicate hours upon hours upon hours in the gym, lifting weights, practice etc. Not that taking a play off or two doesn't happen.....it does. However, to me when you call a player lazy? It means something different. I think the vast majority of Ayton's issues come from Ayton's head. He doesn't have a high basketball IQ, lacks situational awareness and lacks any kind of killer instinct (nastiness). To me that is 98% of what is wrong with his game.


Borris Diaw comes to mind. Now that guy used to drive me nuts. I have a video cut somewhere of him. It showed him basically dogging it down court in multiple cuts and never leaving his feet on defense when guys would shoot, or when he was around the basket. Oh man...I have to find it.
Okay, so in your first comment you say you have a difficult time calling any professional athlete lazy. In your second you explicitly point out one that is.

Understand, when I use “lazy” I’m not using it in the general sense. I’m using it in the relative sense. Compared to his peers I think he has lapses of laziness (note I never called a lazy player, I have always qualified it with the fact that he dips in and out of laziness). You can’t argue that relative laziness doesn’t exist in the nba. For that to be the case everyone would have to match everyone else’s intensity at the highest level at all times. That’s just not true. And there are plenty of players who are lazy at one of the court or for stretches of games compared to their colleagues. To say otherwise just isn’t being accurate.

And while I very much support the notion that many of Ayton’s shortcomings are due to lack of aggressiveness, poor situational awareness, and discomfort with contact, there are undeniably (imo) periods of just flat laziness. When a shot goes up and a guard boxes you out that just can’t be dismissed as lack of situational awareness. You’d have to be literally brain dead to be unaware that the guy literally banging against you is a smaller guard and the ball is likely going to come off the backboard/rim somewhere. Not exerting effort to get to that ball can only be laziness at that point.

Another bit of evidence that I’ve noticed this year is how he gets back in defense. More often than should be the case he’s beaten down court by his cover. Guys that trail his athleticism by a mile. Doesn’t happen a lot. But more than should ever be the case. In addition, watch how he jogs back if his man isn’t down the court. He will be in a position where if he hustled a bit more he would give our team a huge defensive advantage by plunking his butt in the paint around the free throw line until his man crosses half court (and his cover is rarely a shooter so theirs no urgency to remain up top). But he doesn’t do that. If his man is trailing he slowly jogs up the court. It looks like he has the attitude of “well my guy is back there so I don’t need to be involved.” That’s lazy.
 

Covert Rain

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Okay, so in your first comment you say you have a difficult time calling any professional athlete lazy. In your second you explicitly point out one that is.

Understand, when I use “lazy” I’m not using it in the general sense. I’m using it in the relative sense. Compared to his peers I think he has lapses of laziness (note I never called a lazy player, I have always qualified it with the fact that he dips in and out of laziness). You can’t argue that relative laziness doesn’t exist in the nba. For that to be the case everyone would have to match everyone else’s intensity at the highest level at all times. That’s just not true. And there are plenty of players who are lazy at one of the court or for stretches of games compared to their colleagues. To say otherwise just isn’t being accurate.

And while I very much support the notion that many of Ayton’s shortcomings are due to lack of aggressiveness, poor situational awareness, and discomfort with contact, there are undeniably (imo) periods of just flat laziness. When a shot goes up and a guard boxes you out that just can’t be dismissed as lack of situational awareness. You’d have to be literally brain dead to be unaware that the guy literally banging against you is a smaller guard and the ball is likely going to come off the backboard/rim somewhere. Not exerting effort to get to that ball can only be laziness at that point.

Another bit of evidence that I’ve noticed this year is how he gets back in defense. More often than should be the case he’s beaten down court by his cover. Guys that trail his athleticism by a mile. Doesn’t happen a lot. But more than should ever be the case. In addition, watch how he jogs back if his man isn’t down the court. He will be in a position where if he hustled a bit more he would give our team a huge defensive advantage by plunking his butt in the paint around the free throw line until his man crosses half court (and his cover is rarely a shooter so theirs no urgency to remain up top). But he doesn’t do that. If his man is trailing he slowly jogs up the court. It looks like he has the attitude of “well my guy is back there so I don’t need to be involved.” That’s lazy.
There is difference between a player taking a play off and dogging it down the court on occasion and being a lazy player. We all "take plays off" in our lives and jobs. Anybody that says they don't is lying but it doesn't mean you are lazy. It's hard to give 110% to anything in our lives all the time. Fans IMO throw around that term too generously. You can do something stupid and not be dumb. You can do a bad thing and not be a bad person. You can take a play off and not be lazy. Ayton drives me nuts when he doesn't get back sometimes but to me that's not even close to the primary problems with Ayton game. I have seen people call him lazy after 20 rebounds. I am in no way defending when he does take plays off but that is ridiculous.

What heightens those plays that Ayton takes off is all the other stuff we are watching too. If he was agressive and a smarter basketall player nobody would give two thoughts about plays he takes off IMO.

I didn't say situational awareness, basketball IQ and his lack of aggressiveness are his ONLY problems. Just to me, it's the vast majority. When I hear "Lazy Payer", guys like Diaw, Beasley, Bynum and Coleman come to mind. I don't think Ayton is one of those guys. Again...IMO. Maybe I will feel differently after watching his game for decade.
 
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Ouchie-Z-Clown

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There is difference between a player taking a play off and dogging it down the court on occasion and being a lazy player. We all "take plays off" in our lives and jobs. Anybody that says they don't is lying but it doesn't mean you are lazy. It's hard to give 110% to anything in our lives all the time. Fans IMO throw around that term too generously. You can do something stupid and not be dumb. You can do a bad thing and not be a bad person. You can take a play off and not be lazy. Ayton drives me nuts when he doesn't get back sometimes but to me that's not even close to the primary problems with Ayton game. I have seen people call him lazy after 20 rebounds. I am in no way defending when he does take plays off but that is ridiculous.

What heightens those plays that Ayton takes off is all the other stuff we are watching too. If he was agressive and a smarter basketall player nobody would give two thoughts about plays he takes off IMO.

I didn't say situational awareness, basketball IQ and his lack of aggressiveness are his ONLY problems. Just to me, it's the vast majority. When I hear "Lazy Payer", guys like Diaw, Beasley, Bynum and Coleman come to mind. I don't think Ayton is one of those guys. Again...IMO. Maybe I will feel differently after watching his game for decade.
I don’t know if you’re not reading what I’m writing or if we are crossing signals. I don’t think Ayton is a lazy player along the lines of the players you listed. But I think Ayton gets lazy at certain junctures in virtually every game. Define that as you will. Rare, if ever, are the games you can say “he went hard the whole game.”
 

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I don’t know if you’re not reading what I’m writing or if we are crossing signals. I don’t think Ayton is a lazy player along the lines of the players you listed. But I think Ayton gets lazy at certain junctures in virtually every game. Define that as you will. Rare, if ever, are the games you can say “he went hard the whole game.”
I don’t know how Coleman can be considered lazy but Ayton can’t. They both suffer from the exact same criticism. Maybe because Coleman was more talented than Ayton?
 

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Which is more true:

- Ayton plays as if he doesn't want to hurt anyone...
- Ayton is lazy...

Does it really matter which you choose? Either way, the dude is ridiculously soft.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I don’t know how Coleman can be considered lazy but Ayton can’t. They both suffer from the exact same criticism. Maybe because Coleman was more talented than Ayton?
I think it’s because with Coleman there was never any excuse other than effort. He had high bball IQ, was aggressive, and had good awareness. It just seemed like there were days he wasn’t motivated. With Ayton you can deflect lazy becasue it’s undeniable some of these others issues exist and could be the culprit. What it boils down to is both are disappointments in relation to what could be.
 

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I think it’s because with Coleman there was never any excuse other than effort. He had high bball IQ, was aggressive, and had good awareness. It just seemed like there were days he wasn’t motivated. With Ayton you can deflect lazy becasue it’s undeniable some of these others issues exist and could be the culprit. What it boils down to is both are disappointments in relation to what could be.
That makes sense.
 

Covert Rain

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I don’t know if you’re not reading what I’m writing or if we are crossing signals. I don’t think Ayton is a lazy player along the lines of the players you listed. But I think Ayton gets lazy at certain junctures in virtually every game. Define that as you will. Rare, if ever, are the games you can say “he went hard the whole game.”
I think we are basically in the same zip code.
 

AsUpRoDiGy

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Even when Ayton tries to act tough... no one takes him seriously

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ASUCHRIS

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Even when Ayton tries to act tough... no one takes him seriously

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They may not take him seriously, but Barnes did fire up DA to finish the game strong.
 
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