The Ayton Plan

[1Sun]

I don't believe for a second that the escalators are the issue. If any kick in, the escalator would have been well worth it, and it would be foolish not to incentivize good performance, particularly with someone like Ayton.

As for the Towns talk, the only way we could make a deal work under the salary cap rules is to include CP3 or Booker in the trade with Ayton.

 

[Hoop Head]

As for the Towns talk, the only way we could make a deal work under the salary cap rules is to include CP3 or Booker in the trade with Ayton.

Again, false.

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It's already been established what would need to be sent out in terms of salary and what you're claiming is not the case. Do you purposely ignore reality to push your agenda or what?

Seriously, what's your deal? I gave up before because I proved how Joe Johnson and Ayton's situations aren't "identical" despite your insistence and now you're claiming there is no possible way to trade Ayton for Towns without including Paul or Booker became of cap restrictions? Come on man. You can say you're against something without trying to present it as fact.

You have made a few decent posts lately where you've managed to avoid inserting your hysterical hyperboles. You wouldn't constantly be butting heads with the few posters left who don't have you have on ignore if you did that regularly. I believe most who have you on ignore would be open to talking basketball with you if you knocked that off as well. Don't you want to be a member of this community rather than the resident contrarian?

 

[1Sun]

Again, false.

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www.espn.com

It's already been established what would need to be sent out in terms of salary and what you're claiming is not the case. Do you purposely ignore reality to push your agenda or what?

Seriously, what's your deal? I gave up before because I proved how Joe Johnson and Ayton's situations aren't "identical" despite your insistence and now you're claiming there is no possible way to trade Ayton for Towns without including Paul or Booker became of cap restrictions? Come on man. You can say you're against something without trying to present it as fact.

You have made a few decent posts lately where you've managed to avoid inserting your hysterical hyperboles. You wouldn't constantly be butting heads with the few posters left who don't have you have on ignore if you did that regularly. I believe most who have you on ignore would be open to talking basketball with you if you knocked that off as well. Don't you want to be a member of this community rather than the resident contrarian?

You're nuts if you think Minnesota is accepting that package for Towns.

And you did not prove anything with respect to Joe Johnson. Again, the Suns with Ayton right now are in the EXACT SAME POSITION as when Joe Johnson and management ended up at an impasse over $5,000,000, only with Joe Johnson, it was BEFORE a contending season, not IMMEDIATELY AFTER one.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Say you don’t get this done this year and we go into next season and Bridges makes another jump he just gets more expensive

Say Ayton makes another jump and ends up on an all NBA team even all NBA defense now he’s in line for the Luka 207 max no questions asked cause he’s already made all NBA.

I really don’t see the upside to this if your the suns

Not arguing with this but as always us Sun fans might be over valuing are players. Ayton all NBA in my dreams. Bridges should be signed but nothing close to the Max.

 

[1Sun]

Again, false.

NBA Trade Machine - ESPN

NBA trade machine, make player trades

www.espn.com

It's already been established what would need to be sent out in terms of salary and what you're claiming is not the case. Do you purposely ignore reality to push your agenda or what?

Seriously, what's your deal? I gave up before because I proved how Joe Johnson and Ayton's situations aren't "identical" despite your insistence and now you're claiming there is no possible way to trade Ayton for Towns without including Paul or Booker became of cap restrictions? Come on man. You can say you're against something without trying to present it as fact.

You have made a few decent posts lately where you've managed to avoid inserting your hysterical hyperboles. You wouldn't constantly be butting heads with the few posters left who don't have you have on ignore if you did that regularly. I believe most who have you on ignore would be open to talking basketball with you if you knocked that off as well. Don't you want to be a member of this community rather than the resident contrarian?

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This is closer to a realistic scenario, and it would leave the Suns without a single power forward on the roster, thereby completely neutralizing Towns and leaving the team dead in the water.

 

[Mainstreet]

I already mentioned in post #494 that Ayton, Crowder and Saric works in a trade for Towns not that I'm endorsing it.

May be a repeat but Ayton, Crowder and Saric work in a trade for KAT.

 

[Finito]

Not arguing with this but as always us Sun fans might be over valuing are players. Ayton all NBA in my dreams. Bridges should be signed but nothing close to the Max.

I don’t see 3 centers who are better defensively than Ayton. BAM? it’s very realistic he could be all defense

 

[Carolinacacti]

I love Ayton but top three? Maybe in 3 years, Hell Magee tops him.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I love Ayton but top three? Maybe in 3 years, Hell Magee tops him.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Top three you better get Blocks

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns drafted Deandre Ayton and Mikal Bridges in the 2018 draft as key pieces for the Suns future. Yet here we are on October 17th, 2021 wondering if they will be extended and no less after making it to the Finals the previous season.

The Suns got better than expected deals on Payne and Paul. Maybe they expected the same from Bridges and Ayton?

I don't want to go into the season with the future of both players in question with other teams wining and dining them in restricted free agency next summer.

Hopefully the deals get done but I'm growing less optimistic by the hour.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You're nuts if you think Minnesota is accepting that package for Towns.

And you did not prove anything with respect to Joe Johnson. Again, the Suns with Ayton right now are in the EXACT SAME POSITION as when Joe Johnson and management ended up at an impasse over $5,000,000, only with Joe Johnson, it was BEFORE a contending season, not IMMEDIATELY AFTER one.

This is dead wrong. With JJ the impasse was over 5 million total for the life of the entire contract, 5 years. So it was an impasse of a difference of 1 million dollars per year. That’s really next to nothing in NBA terms and that’s why Sarver deserved to be roasted so bad. Ayton’s escalators to Supermax would be MUCH MUCH more than that over the life of the contract if he hit Superman escalators.

That’s not a judgement on whether I think we should give him those escalators. It’s just the fact that the money being bargained over is MUCH different than the JJ situation.

That said, I think he should get the escalators. The idea that we’re hoping he does play well enough to earn them but get away without paying that level is cheap to me and sends a bad message. But it’s not as completely pathetically cheap like the JJ situation, though there are similarities. But the situations are not identical.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That said, I think he should get the escalators. The idea that we’re hoping he does play well enough to earn them but get away without paying that level is cheap to me and sends a bad message. But it’s not as completely pathetically cheap like the JJ situation, though there are similarities. But the situations are not identical.

It's not my money so yeah, I'm hoping we give him whatever we have to. But keep in mind, all he has to do to qualify for the rookie super max is to make first or second team all defense this season and he's raised up to 30% of the cap for all 5 years of his contract.

If that was my money I was spending and considering how inconsistent Ayton has been and how focused he's been from the beginning on getting that second contract, I might have some misgivings too.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's not my money so yeah, I'm hoping we give him whatever we have to. But keep in mind, all he has to do to qualify for the rookie super max is to make first or second team all defense this season and he's raised up to 30% of the cap for all 5 years of his contract.

If that was my money I was spending and considering how inconsistent Ayton has been and how focused he's been from the beginning on getting that second contract, I might have some misgivings too.

All he has to do is be the best or second best defensive center in the game? That means vaulting over Davis, Bam, Embiid, Capella, Goebert. At minimum, and if he’s at that level, that means his game and consistency will have grown by leaps and bounds because until the playoffs literally no one put him up with any of those guys except Suns fans who consistently overrate our own players.

If he does that, then, well, he’s proved his on his way to deserving a bigger deal. And the bottom line is that is just how business is done in the NBA.

 

[AzStevenCal]

All he has to do is be the best or second best defensive center in the game? That means vaulting over Davis, Bam, Embiid, Capella, Goebert. At minimum, and if he’s at that level, that means his game and consistency will have grown by leaps and bounds because until the playoffs literally no one put him up with any of those guys except Suns fans who consistently overrate our own players.

If he does that, then, well, he’s proved his on his way to deserving a bigger deal. And the bottom line is that is just how business is done in the NBA.

It's the "doing it for just one year" part that I'd be concerned with. Granted he isn't likely to suddenly become the 2nd best center in the game but if we have a dominant defense this season it wouldn't take much luck for him to move into that 2nd spot. Embiid and Davis having a shortened season due to injury is almost a lock and those are 2 of the 3 he probably can't pass legitimately.

But I guess it depends on how concerned you are by Ayton's comments a few years back. Sure, he was very young and naive when he made them but alarms went off for many of us. He's been pointed towards receiving that first huge payday. Hopefully winning will motivate him enough to continue to improve but I can't fault anyone for wondering who he'll be once he gets that contract.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's the "doing it for just one year" part that I'd be concerned with. Granted he isn't likely to suddenly become the 2nd best center in the game but if we have a dominant defense this season it wouldn't take much luck for him to move into that 2nd spot. Embiid and Davis having a shortened season due to injury is almost a lock and those are 2 of the 3 he probably can't pass legitimately.

But I guess it depends on how concerned you are by Ayton's comments a few years back. Sure, he was very young and naive when he made them but alarms went off for many of us. He's been pointed towards receiving that first huge payday. Hopefully winning will motivate him enough to continue to improve but I can't fault anyone for wondering who he'll be once he gets that contract.

Man... Steve, I may be wrong here, but This doesn’t feel fair. I was one of those people who sounded alarm on those comments, but I do not remember you being one. Quite the contrary, I remember the overwhelming majority of the board bashing the hell out of “the haters” who raised a brow there and thought you were amongst those who might not have been bashing but were still telling us we were reading into things that we wanted to see because we didn’t like Ayton.

Those same people bringing that quote up now that didnt then, seem like the same people who generally seem to look at the most... optimistic... view of Sarver.

Again, is that a worry? Yeah. Look, we both agree he doesn’t have IT. But he doesn’t need to to be the third massive contract on a title contender which is what almost all title contenders have. This also isn’t an Amare situation where he’s injury prone. He’s still super young and healthy.

And the reality is if he does achieve those heights, this team probably wins the title if he becomes an every night dominant force on D. And there’s no price you can put on that.

 

[Hoop Head]

If he does that, then, well, he’s proved his on his way to deserving a bigger deal. And the bottom line is that is just how business is done in the NBA.

I don't disagree with that being how the business is but it does seem a bit warped. Mikal stands a much better shot of being All-Defense this year but no one here is trying to justify paying 30% of the cap and he's been more consistent and reliable than Ayton over his career. He hasn't missed a single game in 3 seasons, which is a little hard to tell since the last 2 seasons had an odd number of games. Even the idea of paying Mikal the super max is something I think most would call a mistake.

Ayton has a higher ceiling than Mikal but I'm not sure he's worth that much more than Mikal or even Booker and Paul, even if he makes an All-Defense team. That doesn't make him the best player on this team although he would be a key piece of it.

This whole situation sucks. There are so many variables that this decision isn't as open and shut as it was 2 years ago with Booker, who was a guy who earned his max because of his play, professionalism, and his potential in addition to what he was as a piece of the team. Ayton's play is up and down, his professionalism has been in question, but his potential is great but that doesn't mean he'll reach it.

If this team had the $30m to spend next offseason on anyone, is Ayton the best way to spend it? I don't think so. When Booker was maxed I think you could make the case investing in him was the best way to spend that money. Should Ayton be paid because we're capped out and he has the Suns over a barrel since they can't replace him on the open market?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't disagree with that being how the business is but it does seem a bit warped. Mikal stands a much better shot of being All-Defense this year but no one here is trying to justify paying 30% of the cap and he's been more consistent and reliable than Ayton over his career. He hasn't missed a single game in 3 seasons, which is a little hard to tell since the last 2 seasons had an odd number of games. Even the idea of paying Mikal the super max is something I think most would call a mistake.

Ayton has a higher ceiling than Mikal but I'm not sure he's worth that much more than Mikal or even Booker and Paul, even if he makes an All-Defense team. That doesn't make him the best player on this team although he would be a key piece of it.

This whole situation sucks. There are so many variables that this decision isn't as open and shut as it was 2 years ago with Booker, who was a guy who earned his max because of his play, professionalism, and his potential in addition to what he was as a piece of the team. Ayton's play is up and down, his professionalism has been in question, but his potential is great but that doesn't mean he'll reach it.

If this team had the $30m to spend next offseason on anyone, is Ayton the best way to spend it? I don't think so. When Booker was maxed I think you could make the case investing in him was the best way to spend that money. Should Ayton be paid because we're capped out and he has the Suns over a barrel since they can't replace him on the open market?

The alternative is a disaster. It will destroy whatever goodwill this team somehow built back after being a laughingstock of the league for a decade and him leaving would wipe away any chances at a title AND probably piss Booker off royally.

So the short answer to your final question is... YES.

He’s got us over a barrel. No matter how much we wish he didn’t. Unless you just don’t care about contending again after this year and with Sarver at the helm, I don’t necessarily trust him to ever build back to this level, especially if we find ourselves in a situation where the deadline passes and neither of these guys get done. That’s an epic failure, IMO.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Man... Steve, I may be wrong here, but This doesn’t feel fair. I was one of those people who sounded alarm on those comments, but I do not remember you being one. Quite the contrary, I remember the overwhelming majority of the board bashing the hell out of “the haters” who raised a brow there and thought you were amongst those who might not have been bashing but were still telling us we were reading into things that we wanted to see because we didn’t like Ayton.

Those same people bringing that quote up now that didnt then, seem like the same people who generally seem to look at the most... optimistic... view of Sarver.

Again, is that a worry? Yeah. Look, we both agree he doesn’t have IT. But he doesn’t need to to be the third massive contract on a title contender which is what almost all title contenders have. This also isn’t an Amare situation where he’s injury prone. He’s still super young and healthy.

And the reality is if he does achieve those heights, this team probably wins the title if he becomes an every night dominant force on D. And there’s no price you can put on that.

I could be wrong but I'm almost positive that not only did I express alarm, I was the first one to bring it to the board.

I'm not saying "don't give him the max", I'm just saying it isn't a slam dunk. There are legitimate reasons to question whether to do it.

This is just my opinion but if CP was in his mid 20's, we wouldn't even consider paying DA the max. There are limited scoring defensive centers out there that CP could make look even better than DA.

Apparently Paul was frustrated all season by Ayton's inability to dive to the hoop and either catch the ball or finish. Ayton has more offensive ability than he's shown but CP has a lot to do with DA's incredible shooting percentage in the postseason. That offensive effectiveness has a lot to do with so many people complaining about him not being offered the max. Do we want to pay the Super Max to a post-CP DeAndre Jordan?

 

[Finito]

Bridges 4 years 90 million

1 down 1 to go

Oh by the way Cam is up for an extension next year.

 

[Finito]

I could be wrong but I'm almost positive that not only did I express alarm, I was the first one to bring it to the board.

I'm not saying "don't give him the max", I'm just saying it isn't a slam dunk. There are legitimate reasons to question whether to do it.

This is just my opinion but if CP was in his mid 20's, we wouldn't even consider paying DA the max. There are limited scoring defensive centers out there that CP could make look even better than DA.

Apparently Paul was frustrated all season by Ayton's inability to dive to the hoop and either catch the ball or finish. Ayton has more offensive ability than he's shown but CP has a lot to do with DA's incredible shooting percentage in the postseason. That offensive effectiveness has a lot to do with so many people complaining about him not being offered the max. Do we want to pay the Super Max to a post-CP DeAndre Jordan?

Ayton is way better than Jordan. Centers always need good guards to get them the ball that’s how it’s always been. Paul has also said he loves DA and that DA goes out of his way to learn and wants to be coached hard. Let’s not act like Paul doesn’t like him or doesn’t want to play with him

By the way this dude just turned 23.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Got Bridges signed to a solid deal. Very happy to see that. It’s a little more than I wanted, but locks up a youngin who probably would have garnered more on the open market.

 

[Mainstreet]

Got Bridges signed to a solid deal. Very happy to see that. It’s a little more than I wanted, but locks up a youngin who probably would have garnered more on the open market.

A big WHEW on my part.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I could be wrong but I'm almost positive that not only did I express alarm, I was the first one to bring it to the board.

I'm not saying "don't give him the max", I'm just saying it isn't a slam dunk. There are legitimate reasons to question whether to do it.

This is just my opinion but if CP was in his mid 20's, we wouldn't even consider paying DA the max. There are limited scoring defensive centers out there that CP could make look even better than DA.

Apparently Paul was frustrated all season by Ayton's inability to dive to the hoop and either catch the ball or finish. Ayton has more offensive ability than he's shown but CP has a lot to do with DA's incredible shooting percentage in the postseason. That offensive effectiveness has a lot to do with so many people complaining about him not being offered the max. Do we want to pay the Super Max to a post-CP DeAndre Jordan?

I think he’s shown more natural ability on offense than Jordan ever did.

We’re pretty close to same minds here. I have worries too. Have had them since rookie season. Hopefully it works out.

 

[Finito]

I think he’s shown more natural ability on offense than Jordan ever did.

We’re pretty close to same minds here. I have worries too. Have had them since rookie season. Hopefully it works out.

I think he’s also way better defensively

Jordan wasn’t going out to the top of the key to meet anyone he didn’t have the feet to do that.