The 2024 NBA playoffs thread

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Except the Suns had a winning record in the playoffs without CP3 and went up 2-0 on the Clippers without him.

Yes, he was an important piece but he could have and should have been replaced rather than going for a marginal upgrade on the wing. Yes, I'd say KD is marginally better than Mikal and Cam since the scoring is about the same between them and KD can't guard 2 men. His contract also puts in position where we can't have more than a bottom feeder next to him.

So keep beating that drum, it doesn't make you right. You were wrong on the KD trade so your view of what makes this team better has proven to be off. Rather than admit you were wrong and we overpaid, you won't actually say the trade was bad. It was bad. We gave up too much to get worse. Theres no 2 ways about it, we are worse now as a basketball team, the future is worse because we have less draft assets, and we have no draft picks.
Lol. In the post you QUOTED he literally said the trade was bad. And he’s consistently admitted this over and over by mid season in every time the trade is discussed.

Your logic to discount posters opinions bc they were wrong once may be the single worst take I’ve ever read on a sport board.

Btw, when a single player outscores two players the advantage is you still get to play another player. Shocking realization, I know! So add in either beal’s or Allen’s scoring to compare to the twins and the scoring comparison because ludicrously shifted towards the kd duo. This is also a man epically bad take by you.

Considering your reasoning contains a consistent terrible lack of logic no one should ever listen to you on ASFN ever again. By your logic.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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They were and are assets. As Minnesota clearly is showing a strong bench can be better than having 3 stars.

What I'm saying is that team was not a contender but we had draft picks every year to add to that team and since those guys were young we had time to build it up. Trading for KD who had 2 or so productive years left while giving up all our draft picks made last season all or nothing - and we got nothing. Now we have to endure 5 or 6 more years of nothing, and I'm not happy about it. I would of 1000 times preferred to stay with that old core who I actually liked watching even if they never contended, because this team won't contend either and they are not at all likeable.
This is a fair take. That said, if that team was as good as you thought it was going to remain those picks would have been later and James jones hasn’t shown any ability to find gems with later picks.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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They were and are assets. As Minnesota clearly is showing a strong bench can be better than having 3 stars.

What I'm saying is that team was not a contender but we had draft picks every year to add to that team and since those guys were young we had time to build it up. Trading for KD who had 2 or so productive years left while giving up all our draft picks made last season all or nothing - and we got nothing. Now we have to endure 5 or 6 more years of nothing, and I'm not happy about it. I would of 1000 times preferred to stay with that old core who I actually liked watching even if they never contended, because this team won't contend either and they are not at all likeable.
And I completely agree with your last sentence.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I’ll be honest, I have no idea how the Mavs matchup in this series. What gives you the idea that the wolves will beat them so easily? Obviously beating Denver is impressive, but most of us have been saying for weeks that Denver was vulnerable. Dallas have been rolling for a couple of months now. I don’t see much of a difference in their playoff games from what they did in the last 20 games of the regular season.
I actually think this is a good matchup. Both play defense. Both have two solid bigs. Both have solid-to-stud backcourts. Both have a superstar.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Maybe trading but there is no reason they can't clear salary and go after a big name free agents before that time. They do have options after they decide this experiment is over.
Exactly. Like how the nets got kd and kyrie. They didn’t have draft picks from their bad trades. But they ended up with massive cap room. Suns likely in same position post kd/beal deals (if they don’t extend them) with an owner isn’t shy about spending.
 

Yuma

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I heard today it is possible to get under the second apron for us. We just trade Nurkic for nothing in return. Just throwing that out there for discussion. I am thinking we get a draft pick in return?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Looks like Garland is headed to the block. He's a great young PG. Holiday was traded for a quarter of what KD was. Brogdon is available. Lillard also cost less than KD, albeit he's older. Those names good enough? DeJounte Murray has been floated as trade bait and now Trae Young might be moved. 2 more good young PG's. There were options, the Suns and some Suns fans became obsessed with adding KD when he said he wanted to be here but I don't think anyone thought about how different here would look after paying to add KD. We paid a premium for him and the Nets bent us over in those trade talks.
Add any of those guys while removing bridges and this team would’ve likely won a whopping 3 games more (52 seems about right) and still been bounced in the first round by the wolves. That’s just the reality.
 

Yuma

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One of the complaints I had with Vogel and Young was that our sum of the parts was less then what it should have been. I know this is wishful thinking, but I am thinking almost any coach has the chance to do better. May Bud can tap into some synergy here? If we are not moving the big three, and I don't see how we trade Nurkic for someone back that's as good, we really have to run it back. In October Allen is able to be traded if we went that route.
 

Russ Smith

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REally tough loss for the pacers. on the bright side the Celtics had multiple guys go off on offense and had a huge FT advantage, and were still lucky to win. On the downside for a team that doesn't have much playoff experience beyond Siakam, gotta wonder how the rest of them recover from blowing that game?

Still not sure what happened on the play for Haliburton lost his dribble and essentially fell out of bounds with the ball under pressure from Jrue? Didn't look like there was any contact at all he just lost his balance? Huge play in the game.
 

clyde2tw

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Empowering the rotation players! That seems to be the theme among all 4 conf. final teams. Except for Celtics, each of the others has at most one superstar, if Harliburton counts for one. Our rotation players all under performed, next to at least one of big-3 each game. That's mainly coach.
 

Covert Rain

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I think a lot of us were still stupidly hopeful that Ayton could still be an okay 3rd option when we traded for KD. Then he totally checked out of the playoffs and the stupidly hopeful (like me) had egg all over their faces in multiple ways.
This is where it all started to go belly up. Not the KD trade, not what we gave up etc. The first domino was Ayton not living up to expectations. If Ayton lived up to his draft potential and was a legitimate #1 or even #2 on this team? So many other options open up to the Suns.
 

GatorAZ

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I heard today it is possible to get under the second apron for us. We just trade Nurkic for nothing in return. Just throwing that out there for discussion. I am thinking we get a draft pick in return?

Not sure how much getting under the 2nd apron by $2-3mil helps us considering we’d go back over by filling the roster. Honestly getting under the apron helps if we’re blowing it up b/c it gives us more flexibility with incoming contexts for a KD trade. Plus we’d be giving up a lock to unload Nurk.
 

Peter Sheldon

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This is where it all started to go belly up. Not the KD trade, not what we gave up etc. The first domino was Ayton not living up to expectations. If Ayton lived up to his draft potential and was a legitimate #1 or even #2 on this team? So many other options open up to the Suns.
So true.
I was all in on getting Ayton rather than Doncic. Had no idea Ayton was a head case and Doncic would become a superstar. A solid team would have done better. We were filling for a position of need which made a lot of sense at the time. Having Booker and Doncic playing similar positions, might have diminished both. But man, you could have eventually traded Doncic or Booker and gotten a haul that may have created a championship team. Seems whenever Suns have a pick, they almost invariably make the wrong choice. (except for Book who fell into their lap). Drafting Dragan Bender with the 4th pick in 2016 was a level of ineptitude that is clearly earth shattering. A random child on the street could have picked better. He never averaged more than 10 points a game. sheeesh.
 

Covert Rain

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So true.
I was all in on getting Ayton rather than Doncic. Had no idea Ayton was a head case and Doncic would become a superstar. A solid team would have done better. We were filling for a position of need which made a lot of sense at the time. Having Booker and Doncic playing similar positions, might have diminished both. But man, you could have eventually traded Doncic or Booker and gotten a haul that may have created a championship team. Seems whenever Suns have a pick, they almost invariably make the wrong choice. (except for Book who fell into their lap). Drafting Dragan Bender with the 4th pick in 2016 was a level of ineptitude that is clearly earth shattering. A random child on the street could have picked better. He never averaged more than 10 points a game. sheeesh.
If Ayton was a legit #1 or #2 player, paired with Book, then you say added another star player later? The team would have been an unstoppable force for years. Ayton being a headcase completely changed the direction of the franchise IMO.
 

Peter Sheldon

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If Ayton was a legit #1 or #2 player, paired with Book, then you say added another star player later? The team would have been an unstoppable force for years. Ayton being a headcase completely changed the direction of the franchise IMO.
so true.
Suns had two easy shots in their history to have an amazing team. Lost the Lew Alcindor coin toss and head case Ayton. The '93 Suns wound up against peak Jordon. Even when Suns dominate in regular season, they seem to face some juggernaut team in playoffs they cannot figure out. Oh and don't get me started on Spurs knocking Nash into a wall and our bigs getting disqualified next game because they stood up (like that same scenario wouldn't happen to EVERY team in the league under similar circumstances. cursed.
 
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95pro

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You’re wrong about bridges. There was a faction of us that saw his limited upside. Doesn’t mean it was a “waste of time keeping him on the roster” :)rolleyes:), just that we were convinced he wasn’t going to be a legit #2 for a championship team. Some were saying he was going to be a pippen. He ended up better than that group thought, but not by much.

And Ayton definitely regressed. Numbers don’t always tell the story. His effort was awful and his consistency went down the tubes. And he was pretty much a dissident. Just looking at YOY numbers is the worst argument to pose against fans who watched every game. We know the reality.

And talking about reality: crowder. There was no re-upping crowder. Maybe in fantasyland. Monty and jones blew that. It just was what it unfortunately was.

And we absolutely maximized what we could get from Paul. Again what else could we have gotten for him? Jordan poole. That would’ve awful for this team.

Yes, we lost all of our flexibility. And the kd deal is a loser. But people weren’t arguing “we have flexibility!” They were erroneously believing we were still the 64 win team.

I said prior to the finals.

Same with KD, numbers don't always tell the story.

Hindsight. But tell why in fantasyland?

Yeah at the time, we did get the best option that was available. I didn't say we didn't.

That's only one reason, not the entire argument.
 
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95pro

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Add any of those guys while removing bridges and this team would’ve likely won a whopping 3 games more (52 seems about right) and still been bounced in the first round by the wolves. That’s just the reality.

Solid logic. rolleyes...
 

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Still not sure what happened on the play for Haliburton lost his dribble and essentially fell out of bounds with the ball under pressure from Jrue? Didn't look like there was any contact at all he just lost his balance? Huge play in the game.
He realized that he was putting his hand under the ball and carrying it on three consecutive dribbles, got upset that the refs were not calling it, decided to adhere to the fair play principle and fell out of bounds to give the ball to the Celtics.
 

Hoop Head

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Add any of those guys while removing bridges and this team would’ve likely won a whopping 3 games more (52 seems about right) and still been bounced in the first round by the wolves. That’s just the reality.

Is that the same reality where KD makes the Suns a legit title contender, extending and opening the championship window from the 2021 Finals team?
 

Hoop Head

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This is faulty reasoning. “You were wrong once so any other opinion of yours is also wrong.” If that’s the case no one on any sports board’s opinion should be listened to ever. I was right about KJ deal and wrong about majerle. They were close together. Should my opinion about kj have been dismissed too?

But its not. Your entire argument is that we had to add KD to improve our chances since the window was closing while KD's acquisition slammed that window shut. You were wrong leading up to the KD trade, wrong after it, and now you want to look back and say it still needed done. Why? See how that doesn't add up and isn't taking full accountability for how you were wrong? We're staying on the same subject, talking about the same team. You said trading for KD made us better, which was wrong, and you'll admit it was wrong to a certain degree but still say it was worth a shot and a shake up was needed when it wasn't, not that degree. You haven't backed off the reason why we had to trade for KD, just admitting it hasn't worked out. Maybe your view of the Suns pre-KD was just as warped as you envisioned the KD Suns.
 

Cheesebeef

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But its not. Your entire argument is that we had to add KD to improve our chances since the window was closing while KD's acquisition slammed that window shut. You were wrong leading up to the KD trade, wrong after it, and now you want to look back and say it still needed done. Why? See how that doesn't add up and isn't taking full accountability for how you were wrong? We're staying on the same subject, talking about the same team. You said trading for KD made us better, which was wrong, and you'll admit it was wrong to a certain degree but still say it was worth a shot and a shake up was needed when it wasn't, not that degree. You haven't backed off the reason why we had to trade for KD, just admitting it hasn't worked out. Maybe your view of the Suns pre-KD was just as warped as you envisioned the KD Suns.
You guys keep saying that trade didn’t make us better when that’s just empirically false.

The Suns with the CP3/Booker team was 25-26, coming off the heels of an epic 2nd round meltdown and was on pace to possibly MISS THE PLAYOFFS. That’s all we have to show for what the bad CP3/Unmotivated Ayton team was. That’s LITERALLY what we know pre-trade. You know what we also know? Post-trade, they ended up 45-37, which means they went 20-9 AFTER the trade and that was WITH KD missing 10 of 30 games.

You know what that means? It means the team WAS BETTER after the trade. You know what we also know? We know that despite a rash of injuries, a terrible coach and discontent everywhere on the team, a 49-33 record is ALSO BETTER THAN what 25-26 comports to.

You keep making a flatly false statement/argument that the team was worse post-trade, when the sad fact is by measure of wins and losses, that isn’t true at all. And spare me the 2022-2023 team had injuries excuse. You can only make that argument if you completely ignore the fact that the Suns post-KD trade have ALSO dealt with a rash of injuries whether that was KD in year 1, or Booker or Beal on year 2.

The reality, that we actually saw play out ON THE COURT in 2022-2023 and to end 2022, was that not only had our window shut without CP3 at an ALL-NBA level, but even being a playoff team at all was now at risk. So, sadly the trade actually DID make us better last season. The huge Problem is, the trade didnt re-open a title window which had slammed shut… it only cracked it enough to be a middling playoff team again, while severely hurting our future. That’s why it’s such a terrible trade. It only marginally made us better in the interim, while destroying the future… which ultimately looked grim any way because we don’t have a unicorn to build around. But at least we would have had more flexibility, which would have provided a little more hope.

Now, I expect you to start lying or ignoring again that I think it was a terrible trade, despite having said so multiple times. But after you do that, I’d love for you to actually make a plausible argument for trades involving the Garland, Trae Young or an aging Lillards of the world… and ones that aren’t based on Hoop Head’s magic fairy dust that would have gotten Lillard for CP3’s expiring and a couple draft picks.
 
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Lorenzo

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Minnesota off to a good start in the first quarter. Dallas are getting good looks themselves just not knocking them down.
 

Lorenzo

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im sticking with dallas
lol yeah no reason to change based on what we've seen in the first few mins here. wolves players are knocking down the three's that the mavs will probably knock down at some point. positive for mavs to see Irving more involved early. probably a better matchup for him in this series offensively.
 

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