The 2019-2020 Around the NBA thread

[Hoop Head]

Bill Russell shut down Wilt back in the day. I believe he should be in the conversation for GOAT but I think Bill Russell is someone who is often overlooked for that same conversation. If he was a 7 footer then he would be the undisputed GOAT. He is probably the best defensive player of all time as is.

 

[BC867]

Bill Russell shut down Wilt back in the day. I believe he should be in the conversation for GOAT but I think Bill Russell is someone who is often overlooked for that same conversation. If he was a 7 footer then he would be the undisputed GOAT. He is probably the best defensive player of all time as is.

The greatest defensive player will probably never be the greatest player of all time in the eyes of players, the Press and fans.

They come to watch offense, as in a 124-122 game vs. an 82-80 game.

Which is the main reason why Russ is considered the greatest defensive player of all time, but not the greatest player. Even if he were a seven footer, he would also have had to be the most skilled scoring Center.

No one was in Chamberlain's league when it came to that! And at that time.

Here is an interesting article about it.

You must be registered for see images attach

http://celtics247.com/2016/04/bill-...amberlain-russell-career-blocked-shots-stats/

 

[AzStevenCal]

Bill Russell shut down Wilt back in the day. I believe he should be in the conversation for GOAT but I think Bill Russell is someone who is often overlooked for that same conversation. If he was a 7 footer then he would be the undisputed GOAT. He is probably the best defensive player of all time as is.

Nobody ever shut Wilt down that I'm aware of. Bill and the Celtics dominated the league but Wilt dominated the game, pretty much every night, even against the much better Russell-led Celtics team.

When it came time for the playoffs the Celtics had no equal, everyone in the league knew that. But night after night especially during the regular season, there was no single player able to match-up effectively with Wilt, everyone in the league knew that too. And, judging by his reputation, nobody coasted on his physical gifts more than Wilt did. If he had MJ or KB's work ethic (and if he lived), he might well have dominated the league through his 50's and beyond.

 

[Superbone]

He's right but ONLY IF you don't apply the same logic to Wilt.

Imagine if Wilt had put in the same work ethic he had in bed on the court!

 

[Hoop Head]

Nobody ever shut Wilt down that I'm aware of. Bill and the Celtics dominated the league but Wilt dominated the game, pretty much every night, even against the much better Russell-led Celtics team.

When it came time for the playoffs the Celtics had no equal, everyone in the league knew that. But night after night especially during the regular season, there was no single player able to match-up effectively with Wilt, everyone in the league knew that too. And, judging by his reputation, nobody coasted on his physical gifts more than Wilt did. If he had MJ or KB's work ethic (and if he lived), he might well have dominated the league through his 50's and beyond.

I'm going by what I've seen and heard on NBA TV mainly. They've had a few specials on Russell's Celtics as well as Wilt and Russell's rivalry of sorts back then. In the playoffs Russell was able to stop Wilt more than anyone else at the time and that's one of the main reasons they had the run they did with 8 titles in 11 years, I believe it was. Of course I didn't see them live since I wasn't even born. I should have been a little clearer though that Russell helped limit Wilt more than anyone else and that kept him from wracking up titles back in his prime.

The idea that a defender "shuts someone down" is said a lot nowadays, even by me, when it's really just a player making the other guy work hard for everything they get and stopping them from controlling the game. Raja Bell did that well against Kobe but he never shut him down, although some might say he did but the boxscore says differently. That's just one example. I admit to using that term improperly but it's in large part because others do as well to the point it doesn't really mean what it should, like calling multiple players GOAT's.

 

[Hoop Head]

The greatest defensive player will probably never be the greatest player of all time in the eyes of players, the Press and fans.

They come to watch offense, as in a 124-122 game vs. an 82-80 game.

Which is the main reason why Russ is considered the greatest defensive player of all time, but not the greatest player. Even if he were a seven footer, he would also have had to be the most skilled scoring Center.

No one was in Chamberlain's league when it came to that! And at that time.

Here is an interesting article about it.

You must be registered for see images attach

http://celtics247.com/2016/04/bill-...amberlain-russell-career-blocked-shots-stats/

It was the playoffs typically when Russell stepped things up and contained Wilt. If you look at the stats then, it tells a different story in Russell's favor. Wilt's PPG average would drop by around 5-6 and it appears his rebounds also went down about the same. That's a good article worth reading, for sure, thanks for sharing it.

Here are the playoff stats from that article.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[AzStevenCal]

In the playoffs Russell was able to stop Wilt more than anyone else at the time and that's one of the main reasons they had the run they did with 8 titles in 11 years, I believe it was. Of course I didn't see them live since I wasn't even born. I should have been a little clearer though that Russell helped limit Wilt more than anyone else and that kept him from wracking up titles back in his prime.

The idea that a defender "shuts someone down" is said a lot nowadays, even by me, when it's really just a player making the other guy work hard for everything they get and stopping them from controlling the game. Raja Bell did that well against Kobe but he never shut him down, although some might say he did but the boxscore says differently. That's just one example. I admit to using that term improperly but it's in large part because others do as well to the point it doesn't really mean what it should, like calling multiple players GOAT's.

This part is true but Russell played team ball, every player on Auerbach's teams did and it was that team that helped control Wilt. Chamberlain still put up incredible numbers against the Celtics, even incredible playoff numbers against them but yes, they were down considerably from his season stats.

But the conversation was about how much better someone would be if they had a strong work ethic and to me, Shaq trails only Wilt in a discussion of untapped potential in an already great player. Personally I don't think there's any comparison who is better and had Russell played elsewhere, nobody would question Wilt as the greatest of all time. Russell was clearly the better team player but even still, I have no doubt that if Wilt and Russell were swapped early in WC's career that Boston would have dominated the titles chase each year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It was the playoffs typically when Russell stepped things up and contained Wilt. If you look at the stats then, it tells a different story in Russell's favor. Wilt's PPG average would drop by around 5-6 and it appears his rebounds also went down about the same. That's a good article worth reading, for sure, thanks for sharing it.

Here are the playoff stats from that article.

You must be registered for see images attach

I don't think it does, those are incredible numbers that Wilt puts up against the Celtics in regular and postseason play. And maybe you missed it but the person that put that together seems to be saying the same thing I am. Here's a quote from that article:

Spoiler

The post shows that most of Wilt’s stats went down against Russell, but hardly by a huge amount. This counteracts the myth that Russell totally dominated Chamberlain when they played.

Then again, smart fans always knew that was the case. Russell himself always said that.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The Russell dominating Wilt thing was really about wins. Russell did not dominate Wilt, but Russell's team dominated everyone.

I still think Wilt was the best NBA player ever--yes even over MJ. I don't say it much because I know no one agrees with me. No single player has ever been as dominant in his own era as Wilt was. Wilt was to the NBA was Maravich was to college basketball.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Russell dominating Wilt thing was really about wins. Russell did not dominate Wilt, but Russell's team dominated everyone.

I still think Wilt was the best NBA player ever--yes even over MJ. I don't say it much because I know no one agrees with me. No single player has ever been as dominant in his own era as Wilt was. Wilt was to the NBA was Maravich was to college basketball.

I usually call MJ the greatest but I have never seen a player dominate so completely and so easily as Wilt did whenever he chose to and I didn't get to see him much until the twilight of his career. Stats are great and they have to enter the picture when you are comparing individual players and that's an easy win for Wilt but it's tough to dismiss the huge advantage Russell has in winning titles (and important games).

 

[Ronin]

I have heard the comparisons when Amare got the number against Tim Duncan.
It goes “Wilt got the numbers but Bill got the championships.”
Fair or not.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I have heard the comparisons when Amare got the number against Tim Duncan.
It goes “Wilt got the numbers but Bill got the championships.”
Fair or not.

Yeah but it's one of those things that we all know better than to think like that but we still do at times. Teams win championships, not players. Luc Longley is not a better basketball player than Barkley despite the fact that Luc has the ring and Chuck doesn't.

And I really think you have to completely ignore that 12 year stretch where the Celtics won almost every season (11 titles), it just confuses the issues IMO. For example, there are 13 players in the history of this league that have won 6 or more titles. 9 of those 13 players won some or all of their rings while they were with the Celtics. The 4 on that list that didn't cash in during the Celtics great run were Kareem, Pippen, Jordan and Horry. Anyway, AFAIC, modern basketball begins sometime after the Red Auerbach coaching era.

 

[BC867]

The Russell dominating Wilt thing was really about wins. Russell did not dominate Wilt, but Russell's team dominated everyone.

I still think Wilt was the best NBA player ever--yes even over MJ. I don't say it much because I know no one agrees with me. No single player has ever been as dominant in his own era as Wilt was. Wilt was to the NBA was Maravich was to college basketball.

I agree with your point, because Wilt's stats were so much greater than anyone else's. The same was true for Babe Ruth, who, when he started hitting HR's in the 50's and 60, I think the next highest total was 17.

But baseball and basketball are different. Fielding position doesn't matter when you're at-bat. Granted, it is easier to hit with a strong hitter behind you than batting 8th.

But in basketball, it is very difficult to choose Wilt or MJ as the GOAT because playing Center is different than playing Guard. GOAT at each position makes more sense. Basketball success depends more on the players on the court with you as Steve pointed out.

 

[Carolinacacti]

They where all greats. I just hope Ayton is a DREAM

 

[Western Font]

I did not have the pleasure of watching Wilt or Russell play, so I respect the views of Bose who did. Like a friend’s dad who is sure Roberto Clemente was the best baseball player he ever saw.

Two things I’d add, though, is that IMO Jordan impresses by not being a 7-footer or close to it in these specific comparisons. Also, making your teammates better is a contribution, even a clear statistical one of you measure for it, and Russell is the superior player on the shortlist in this regard.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Bill Russell shut down Wilt back in the day. I believe he should be in the conversation for GOAT but I think Bill Russell is someone who is often overlooked for that same conversation. If he was a 7 footer then he would be the undisputed GOAT. He is probably the best defensive player of all time as is.

Wilt still averaged 30 points a game vs Russell hardly shut down. Limited? Yes.

 

[gimpy]

He probably could have averaged another 6-7+ points if he only could have made a few free throws. He was terrible at them, squatting down and shoveling them up from his knees. A lot different shooting style than Rick Barry. And no where near as good.

 

[Mainstreet]

Wilson Chandler of the Nets reportedly could face 25 game suspension.


Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn

Brooklyn Nets forward Wilson Chandler is facing a 25 game suspension for testing positive for PED use, league sources tell ESPN. The NBA is expected to make an announcement later today.

8:42 AM - 29 Aug 2019


The suspension becomes official.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27491786/nets-chandler-gets-25-game-ped-suspension

 

[JCSunsfan]

Wilson Chandler of the Nets reportedly could face 25 game suspension.


Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn

Brooklyn Nets forward Wilson Chandler is facing a 25 game suspension for testing positive for PED use, league sources tell ESPN. The NBA is expected to make an announcement later today.

8:42 AM - 29 Aug 2019


The suspension becomes official.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27491786/nets-chandler-gets-25-game-ped-suspension

I don’t know about these rules sometimes. I assume his PED use had something to do with coming back from injury.

 

[Finito]

This is hilarious,now Shaq is an underachiever?

Yeah he only went to 6 NBA finals and won 4 championships. What a loser.

Yeah Shaq might have started to ease up towards the end in LA, but let’s not forget how huge Kobe’s ego was getting. He made no secret he wanted Shaq our and he wanted to be the man. He’s just as responsible for that team breaking up and not winning more.

Kobe Bryant thinks everybody would be better if they were more like him.

Shaq is an all time great a top 5 at his position.

 

[BC867]

This is hilarious,now Shaq is an underachiever?

Yeah he only went to 6 NBA finals and won 4 championships. What a loser.

Yeah Shaq might have started to ease up towards the end in LA, but let’s not forget how huge Kobe’s ego was getting. He made no secret he wanted Shaq our and he wanted to be the man. He’s just as responsible for that team breaking up and not winning more.

Kobe Bryant thinks everybody would be better if they were more like him.

Shaq is an all time great a top 5 at his position.

Is anyone disagreeing that Shaq was top 5 at his position?

Or called him a loser?

Please reference the posts where you saw that.

 

[Finito]

Is anyone disagreeing that Shaq was top 5 at his position?

Or called him a loser?

Please reference the posts where you saw that.

This guy. Why so serious?

You do know they are talking about this all over the sports media world right.

The post I made was more about Kobe’s ego and thinking everyone would be better if they were just all like him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This guy. Why so serious?

You do know they are talking about this all over the sports media world right.

The post I made was more about Kobe’s ego and thinking everyone would be better if they were just all like him.

Sounds reasonable but despite your Kobe comments you really did NOT make your target clear in your earlier post IMO. I thought you were taking shots at us for this conversation too.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don’t know about these rules sometimes. I assume his PED use had something to do with coming back from injury.

I can only guess the NBA might think if they bend the rules for one, it will set a precedent for others.

There are usually good arguments to be made in a lot of these PED cases.

 

[Phrazbit]

I enjoyed Shaq’s response, that Kobe would also have more titles if he passed the damn ball more.